Why are Swedish seats better?

bnsnyde · May 17, 2011

I'm frustrated that seats in Sweden can RF up to 55 lbs. or perhaps more. I was browsing online and all their seats seem wonderful. I am talking side impact protection, leg room, etc. Everything! Most important is RF to age 4 or 5. And I can barely squish my baby under age 2 in his seat RF!

Why don't we have that in the USA? It's even illegal to use those seats here. Even if I paid $$$$$$ and used one, and could be sure it would fit my car (which I have no clue so I won't do this), why do the seats in the US seem inferior?

If RF and side impact protection are important (which they are), how can they only realize that across the ocean?

I was browsing European seats in general and drooling over how safe they seem.

monica-m · May 17, 2011

bnsnyde said:
I can barely squish my baby under age 2 in his seat RF!

What seat are you using for your baby and how big is he? It is uncommon for a child not yet 2 to not fit rear facing in the convertible seats that are available in the US.

I agree that the European seats, particularly the Swedish ones are drool worthy but the Swedish ERF seats are unnecessary to get an average sized child to a safe FF age (3-4 depending on your comfort level). If the NHTSA would get on the ball and put a floor on the test sled to make it more like an actual car we could have those seats here.

bnsnyde · May 18, 2011

Oh, he fits. I have to shove him in and he's always crooked, which makes it hard to get the harness straps the same slack. And his feet brace the back and he screams, and the lap harness gets caught up around his thighs.
It's not ideal. I love my seat for safety. I like to rate seats on side impact. Even if there are no standards in the US, I can eyeball a seat and see if it's decent looking. Steel bar, etc.

Advocate CS 70. (It's actually very easy for my 3.5-year-old to ride RF in this; she gets in by herself, has the coordination to sit NOT crooked, and does not have a fit). Ironic. Maybe my toddler will fit better as he gets older!

But I wish I were in Sweden.

emandbri · May 18, 2011

The main reason why we don't have seats like that in the US is that the seats in Sweden have a foot prop to keep the seat from over-reclining in a crash. The US crash test standards require seats to pass tests without a foot prop.

KaiLing · May 18, 2011

I have a new Swedish seat. I bought it for two reasons:
1. my kid is the odd child that won't get to age 3 RF in a US seat. Right now, at 2y5m he only fits by height in the Radian (I have an XT) or possibly the complete air, which he's never been in. I can confirm that he outgrew the MyRide, the US Britaxes and the Scenera between his birthday and now. I expect him to hit 40 lbs before his 3rd birthday. My only option for increasing his time in a RF seat would be to buy a newer Radian for the 45 lbs limit. BUT
2. the Radian fits horribly in our small car (Mazda 3) and the idea of buying another $250 seat *exactly* the same size as the one we already have that eliminates the front seat (and potentially can't be used with LATCH) is ridiculous to me. So we used the tax refund on an expensive, technically illegal imported seat. It fits so much better in the car (European cars are pretty small, generally) and he'll get to use it RF until after his 5th birthday if he continues to follow the WHO growth curve.

I know we're not the average family, and the thought of a $500-600 car seat gives me heart palpatations (what if I'm in a fender bender when he's not even in the seat?! What if I drop it while installing it?!), even now that I've already bought it, but for me that's why the MT is better: fit of kid and fit of car.

scariestone · May 18, 2011

emandbri said:
The main reason why we don't have seats like that in the US is that the seats in Sweden have a foot prop to keep the seat from over-reclining in a crash. The US crash test standards require seats to pass tests without a foot prop.

That's not entirely accurate. Some have footprops and some are braced on the front seat. In Sweden, even if the seat has a footprop, they brace it on the seat(or dashboard) in front. The reason there are no multitechs or two ways in the US is that there's no market for them sadly. Most parents turn their babies FF at or even before their first birthday, so a high weight RF seat won't be something they will ever even look at. To me, comparing US seats to Swedish seats is pretty much apples an oranges they are so different in the way they're installed but also they way they're designed. The MT feels like its made with quality craftsmanship, while every US seat I've owned felt like a lot was cheaped out on by the manufacturer(even the seats I've owned with steel frames). Even with that being the case, if there were a US seat DS could RF in, he'd be in it. At 45lbs and only 3 and a half years old, FF wasn't even an option in my mind but do I like using a seat that cost a fortune and is illegal? No but I will go to the ends of the Earth(literally apparently) to make sure DS is as safe as he can be in what is the most dangerous situation I put him in(riding in the car). Sorry that got pretty long-winded.

Bottom line is, you'll only see seats like the Swedish ones in the US when parents on the whole give a crap about car safety. The sad fact is, at the moment they really don't or don't know better.

carseatcoach · May 18, 2011

scariestone said:
The reason there are no multitechs or two ways in the US is that there's no market for them sadly.

This is not correct. Emandbri and monica-m were correct that Swedish seats will not pass NHTSA testing. NHTSA requires that seats pass installed with lap belt only. Foot props, tethering, and bracing can NOT be required. There is no floor and no front seat/dashboard on the test sled. Without props/tethering/bracing, even the much-vaunted Swedish seats will not pass testing at high RFing weights.

They can't pass; they can't be sold. It has nothing to do with demand.

scariestone · May 18, 2011

I didn't actually mean that was the ONLY reason, just that there are very very few consumers in this country that are looking for the really high weight RF seats, so the car seat companies aren't being pushed to develop something like the Swedish seats that would pass the US testing. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

carseatcoach · May 18, 2011

I doubt that it would be possible to pass US testing at greater than 45#.

LISmama810 · May 18, 2011

A 55-lb seat is only 10 lbs greater than what we have now.

A few years ago people were claiming that there was no demand for 40- or 45-lb seats.

A 55-lb seat might not become mainstream right away but the popularity of current high-weight RF seats (plus changes in "official" recommendations) implies that such a seat would bode fairly well.

If Britax could suddenly sell their 55-lb seats here and take market share away from Sunshine Kids and Safety 1st, I bet they would.

The problem is they can't, unless their seats can pass testing without a floor or seat in front of it.

Maisie&BodensMommy · May 18, 2011

I was kind of hoping that as more people start to RF for longer, the car seat gods would listen, and change stuff up so we could have seats like that in the US...
But I figure we'll all be waiting for a very long time.

scariestone · May 18, 2011

It'll happen eventually. Not that long ago, the highest RF weight was 33lbs. Now there are several seats with 40lb limits and one with 45. We're catching up, just painfully slowly.

So people that know about the testing, does the NHTSA think people are driving around in cars without floorboards or something? What's the logic in how they test? Or is there none?

sunnymw · May 19, 2011

scariestone said:
It'll happen eventually. Not that long ago, the highest RF weight was 33lbs. Now there are several seats with 40lb limits and one with 45. We're catching up, just painfully slowly.

So people that know about the testing, does the NHTSA think people are driving around in cars without floorboards or something? What's the logic in how they test? Or is there none?

I had a 1984 Honda CRX that was missing some floor board :ROTFLMAO:

Sent from my HTC Evo using Car-Seat.Org... please excuse typos and autocorrect!!

ketchupqueen · May 19, 2011

Well, we're slooooowly changing the standards. Canada is leading the way right now by requiring testing with a lap/shoulder belt instead of just a lap belt (we know it changes the performance in some cases.) But, we still don't have the kind of standard they do in Europe, requiring testing in either a real vehicle or a test sled that simulates one. Unfortunately change is slow and hard to come by; there are other priorities, obviously, and since our test sleds are already built and no one wants to completely replace them for money reasons it's going to have to be incremental rather than all at once. I wish we could change it all at once. But the problem is, we have different things to consider than Europe. Our vehicle fleet is different, and real-world data shows that using any car seat on the market is very protective. The small margin is just not enough to justify that kind of expenditure all at once.

And we can't just adopt the European standard whole because there ARE things we are ahead of them on. Like, they allow FF from 9 months old or so... So, we can look to their standard for ideas to improve ours, but we can't take it as a model whole, because it just won't work.

joolsplus3 · May 19, 2011

Maisie&BodensMommy said:
I was kind of hoping that as more people start to RF for longer, the car seat gods would listen, and change stuff up so we could have seats like that in the US...
But I figure we'll all be waiting for a very long time.

Things are changing lightning fast now, though. It was only 1998 that seats finally came RF to 30lbs, Coscos were always 35 since then, other seats have leapfrogged up to 40 and 45. The change is really very astounding, if you've been around to see it. Ask any advocate who had kids in the 60's and 70's and they are amazed at the huge reduction in death rates (because, yeah, forward facing harnessing IS safe, I don't know why Sweden is so against it

).
More legroom would be nice of course, but most kids in Sweden don't RF to 55 pounds, either, just because the seats go that high, they go FF in a booster at 3 or 4.

Anyway, I do more or less agree with you, we should have better bigger RF options here, but I won't let it blind me to the fact that I've watched things change a LOT in the last 13 years from when my first kid was born and 1 or 20 was the rule (his sister was born 2 years later, and was perfectly fine in a classic marathon till 4.5... these pictures are from 2002 and 03... http://cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx)

Kanuni · May 19, 2011

I am from another country (Turkey) and could end up purchasing a carseat either from USA or Sweden, but I concluded that Swedish seats are safer / better simply due to the fact that you can use them longer. 10 lb DOES make a difference IMO...

The test standards are different in USA and it is illegal * to use Swedish seats there, OK I get it, but they are not enough reasons for me to not buy a Swedish seat even if I lived in the USA. If there is a valid safety reason there to prefer one over the other when both are PROPERLY INSTALLED, I would really like to know.

* OK most people here (just like me) are definitely respecting the laws and I may get some bashing by writing the above, but obeying the law when it simply doesn't make sense only happens in countries such as China. When the safety of my kid is the issue, I don't care about the law, sorry.

Admin · May 19, 2011

scariestone said:
Bottom line is, you'll only see seats like the Swedish ones in the US when parents on the whole give a crap about car safety.

And also limited to those that can afford one.

The converse is not true. I care a whole lot about car safety and I have zero concerns about using products certified for the USA.

Kanuni said:
I am from another country (Turkey) and could end up purchasing a carseat either from USA or Sweden, but I concluded that Swedish seats are safer / better simply due to the fact that you can use them longer. 10 lb DOES make a difference IMO...

The test standards are different in USA and it is illegal * to use Swedish seats there, OK I get it, but they are not enough reasons for me to not buy a Swedish seat even if I lived in the USA. If there is a valid safety reason there to prefer one over the other when both are PROPERLY INSTALLED, I would really like to know.

I'm sure you know that no one can provide you with any data one way or another. There is simply probably not much difference. Correctly installed and used, child safety seats are extremely effective at reducing injury and fatality. Without any published studies showing such differences, it is entirely speculation based on circumstantial evidence.

If having a child rear-facing for another 10 pounds gives you peace of mind, then by all means do what you can to obtain one in Turkey if you are certain there will be no issues with fit to your child or vehicle.

carseatcoach · May 19, 2011

I realize that this is not the most popular view on the board, but I feel that as a CPST it is my responsibility to advocate that parents use seats properly and legally. I can't support using illegal seats. This applies to Swedish seats that RF to 55# as well as Australian seats that FF at 6 months.

On an individual basis, I don't care all that much what people do. I'm not going to track down imported/illegal seats and report them to the state police. And if I think importing for a 3-4yo is a waste of money, who cares, it's not my money or my kid.

But yeah, I think part of my "job" is to advocate for legal, proper use. And Swedish seats are not that. I'd lose a lot of credibility if I explain laws and proper use to parents, but then say "but Swedish seats are really cool, so don't worry about laws and proper use for them!"

LISmama810 · May 19, 2011

Kanuni said:
I am from another country (Turkey) and could end up purchasing a carseat either from USA or Sweden, but I concluded that Swedish seats are safer / better simply due to the fact that you can use them longer. 10 lb DOES make a difference IMO...

The test standards are different in USA and it is illegal * to use Swedish seats there, OK I get it, but they are not enough reasons for me to not buy a Swedish seat even if I lived in the USA. If there is a valid safety reason there to prefer one over the other when both are PROPERLY INSTALLED, I would really like to know.

* OK most people here (just like me) are definitely respecting the laws and I may get some bashing by writing the above, but obeying the law when it simply doesn't make sense only happens in countries such as China. When the safety of my kid is the issue, I don't care about the law, sorry.

Well, my understanding is that some Swedish seats require bracing. In the US, you can't put a rear-facing seat in the front (in nearly every vehicle) because of airbags. There are many cars that don't allow a seat in the back to be braced against the front seat because doing so would interfere with advanced airbag sensors. So there are times (and not just a handful) in which a seat would be incompatible in cars here.

Many of us also think that several currently US seats are sufficient. If you have an incredibly heavy 2-year-old, maybe not. But the majority of kids can get to 4 RF in what is available in the US.

We don't have information on how much safer a 6-year-old is rear-facing. Sure they'd be safer to some degree, just like we all would, but is the difference enough to matter?

I, personally, think that importing a Swedish seat to the US is overkill and, frankly, rather silly in most cases.

KaiLing · May 19, 2011

Kanuni said:
* OK most people here (just like me) are definitely respecting the laws and I may get some bashing by writing the above, but obeying the law when it simply doesn't make sense only happens in countries such as China.

Being an American who lived in China for a long time I respectfully disagree with this generalization. Following laws has something to do with the country you're in but not everything. Not bashing, disagreeing.

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