Sunshine Kids letter to NHTSA

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luvsviola

New member
I wonder if they are using sleds and dummies, or real kids in real cars. How about a 3 year old kicking the latch in an Odyssey????
 

jess71903

Ambassador
Again, I'm sure under standardized conditions, the SL performs swimmingly. Real-world? Not so much. This is so infuriating.
 

MaeganEmily

New member
Have they tried it in ANY of the vehicles mentioned in the 100+ NHTSA complaints? ANY OF THEM? Or are they cherry picking which vehicles to use for the "field testing"? Which vehicle was used in their video?
 

morninglori

New member
I think that Mr. Clement needs to go back and re-read something he wrote a few years ago about the important things when making a carseat. His letter to NHTSA clearly shows he knows how to do manufacturing samples and test to defined and controlled situations, but he seems to have forgotten what he wrote in his concluding sentence of article below.

I found this article that Mr. Clement wrote for babyshopmagazine.com which was published 10/2007...The bolding is mine.
What goes into making a good...

What Goes Into Making a Good...

...Child Restraint

By Dave Clement, PE. Director of Engineering, Sunshine kids

This question reminds me of questions regarding how to raise a good child. There is a wealth of information for "how to" raise a child, but the key ingredient needed as a parent and as a child restraint engineer, is PASSION. Without passion in both scenarios, the final product will most likely have problems.

Like parenting, consumer product design is a careful balance of requirements that times often conflict with one another. In general, for a consumer product, aesthetics or the industrial design have to mesh with the requirements of functional product performance and mechanical engineering requirements. Many consumer products have very few requirement. Several have very complex requirements stipulating that the marriage between aesthetics and performance be a healthy balance. All of these factors have to fit into a particular cost structure that is both appealing to the consumer and to the manufacturer.

One such product application is a child restraint intended to be used in an automobile.

In the world of designing child restraints, there is always a need to push the design constraints to their limits.

The mandatory requirements of consumer product design are usually dictated by our local and national government regulations. Child restraints have to meet strict federal guidelines outlined in FMVSS 213 standards. Most product designers will also go the additional steps of designing to "recommended" practices. Typically those practices are outlined by professional societies such as SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and ASTM (American Society of Test and Materials). These standards are usually applied in the product raw material acquisition and product manufacturing process.

Integrated into a good child restraint design are the design requirements for the most important aspect – the occupant. Careful consideration has to be given to ensure the child is comfortable and safe and that the parent can easily utilize the restraint. Today's attachment requirements for lap, LATCH and top tether make designing a one size fits all restraint or other unique restraints.

The mandatory requirements for a child restraint are well known by the consumer as the "crash test". Applied to a child restraint, the crash test is a mock-up of a real world, very severe frontal collision. The child restraint is fitted with a crash test dummy, otherwise known as an ATD (anthropomorphic test device), and the crash test sled is than put into motion to simulate this very severe crash pulse. Stopping from 30 MPH may not seem like a severe deceleration event: however, the best analogy I can give is that this sled test replicates a car colliding head on with a fixed barrier. Fortunately many of us have not experienced such a severe accident. Most accidents allow longer deceleration distances and many occur at lower speeds effectively lowering the loads the occupants see in a majority of accident conditions.

Balancing the above mentioned requirements with the industrial design can be a significant challenge. Early in the design process, full scale models are produced to allow the industrial and mechanical engineers hands-on assessment of the product. This model is shown to a group of consumers to understand their impressions of the product. Their inputs are than incorporated into a second or third revision of the design. Having critical reviews by people not directly associated with the design generally is beneficial to the products success at the "point of sale".
 

Stelvis

New member
Puke.

Although the fact that they wrote a letter to NHTSA makes me hopeful that they are getting pressure from NHTSA.

I'm sure we could round up PLENTY of kids and vehicles wherever their test facility is to show them in real life, if they would only let us.
 

Mom2FiveGirls

Active member
Ugh. Who cares if they can't recreate the problem on their test seat or whatever. They KNOW which vehicles this is a very common problem in. Why not try it on one of those? Sounds to me like they are still in denial that there is a problem...or either they know there is a problem and are trying to cover it up. Either way, I no longer have too much faith in the company... Of course the email they sent after the second SL strap also didn't work for me ticked me off. It basically said "install the seat correctly and its not a problem" and "sorry, you're out of luck". :roll:
 
I am not a car seat manufacture so I have no idea, but how hard would it be to just change that locking mech to the older style, with super latch? I mean that would solve this.. I watch this battle and it feels like how I feel when I am trying to have my kids clean their room and they are insisting it is clean even though it is a mess, and I simply can not get them to do it. I feel that frustration when I read these comments on facebook and follow this issue.

The customers are not happy, no one likes the latch locking adjuster thing, so lets look at how it can be changed... when it comes to this many complaints.. I think it is worth changing.

I like radians, mine work fine with no problems, BUT I am starting to get frustrated when I read what is being said.. The letter from the president is what pissed me off, that was when I was taken back and felt like "ok woah! that is out of line, that is how they treat their customers." This is a seat that cost someone 300 dollers, if the seat is not functioning for them, then I agree, I would want that chunk of money back too.

I have spoken to Russ, I was not alarmed at first, I felt that their could always be a little operator error going on.. in some cases, then I started feeling like it was a band wagon mentality, But then you think about it, and this many people have videos, some installed rock solid, some not as good, but even properly installed rock solid ones are coming loose. I started to feel angry that the company still feels that this is all operator error, then I saw that letter to that mom from the president and I was FURIOUS. So that is how they treat a customer who has a real problem.. I mean this was a customer that had potential to maybe someday purchase a monteray or another sunshine kids product, even though the super latch was not working in her car.. but now she will never shop sunshine kids again.. and I do not blame her.

I am sorry to Russ, I had told him I still trusted radians and would make a nice post about how the radians are working fine and are still good seats ect.. BUT after that letter from the president, I can not stand behind the company any longer, I do not care if the customer was a pain in the butt.. (it is possible I have no idea) she could have been a monster for all I know, but it is still not how you handle it, she was a paying customer.. and that is not customer service.. That letter from the president made me feel punched in the gut and I was not even a customer with a problem with my radian
 

Stelvis

New member
I am that customer that Brad Keller wrote the letter to....I don't think I'm a monster lol, I was pretty persistent though because they kept blaming me and telling me that it will work if I just install it tight enough. I was polite on the phone with them for the first week and a half I was dealing with the issue. I had sent them the video I made first in private, with just the goal of having Russ watch it so he could see that I was, in fact, making it tight.

After Russ told me that he watched the video and that it didn't look tight and I should just go ahead and tighten it more and that would solve my problem, that's when I lost my temper.

I had the feeling that they were just trying to convince me I was crazy and incompetent so I would go away. I had also caught them in an outright lie at that point, because Susan had told me that the reason my first replacement strap didn't work is because it was from a defect box in the warehouse that got sent to me accidentally. Then later, after sending all 3 straps back to Russ for him to re-test them, he sent me the SAME "defect box" replacement strap as my final solution, claiming it worked fine.

That was when I insisted on speaking personally with the president of the company. He never called me back, he just wrote me that email instead.

ETA: This is after Russ initially told me to just fix it with duct tape, the first time I called.

When they wouldn't give me my money back, I said to myself, fine, I'll just cost you way, way more than the $200 you won't give me. If they had handled it politely and taken the seat back, I probably would have just shut up and gone away.
 
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teekadog

Active member
Dam. I had high hopes that the SL wouldn't loosen in my situation, but it does. I lusted after a Radian for years and now wish I could return it. I don't want to sell it since I don't trust it. Carp.
 

teekadog

Active member
It should be fine to sell if you cut out the SL strap and make sure the person buying it can get a good seatbelt install....

But I would feel like I was supporting the reputable image of a company I have lost trust in. Same way I hesitate to recommend Dorel products.
 

dhardawa

Active member
So now is SKJP on par with Dorel?

When it comes to ignoring known, serious problems with their seats? Yep, I'd say so. I do have to say though, the few times I have spoke with Dorel customer service, they have been polite, helpful, and willing to bend over backwards for me to find a resolution to my problem. Sunshine Kids seems to be just a bunch of liars who would rather insult the customer.
 
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aisraeltax

New member
i have to say Babywearing Meghan has summed up my thoughts exactly. I am trying to "play fair" here but honestly, the response I am getting from Sunshine Kids is simply not acceptable. They asked me for my video, I posted it and they have since said NOTHING in reply.

I'm still on the fence b/c I feel without social network media we would not be hearing all this so quickly....we have no idea how long Britax took to recall their items...it was "pre-Face Book" (lol). so, I am still hanging on to SK doing the decent thing here. I have long been both bothered by SK's use of other products in the car....so im just not sure.
 

Stelvis

New member
I also want to address the rock solid vs. slight movement issue in initial installs -- let's keep in mind that the manual states 1" or less of movement. (Page 25 of my Radian 65SL manual says that "restraint should not move more than 1" in any direction").

So your average parent may not get it super, super, super tight, but even still, it should work as directed in their manual. Even an initial install with 1" of movement is not user error, it's following directions. If it's not okay to have some very slight movement at the belt path, which is what SKJP now seems to be saying, then they need to re-issue new manuals to everyone and take out that 1" rule.
 

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