Question Booster vs harness

pj2rc

New member
I'm sorry, I searched but can't find what I'm looking for. I've been off the boards for awhile, but from what I remember the consensus seemed to be that once the kids are at a minimum of 4 & 40#, and can ride correctly in a booster, the booster vs harness safety is about equal. Am I wrong? If you feel differently, why? I am all for EH if it's the best, but if it's a wash, what's the difference in your mind?
 
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Victorious4

Senior Community Member
For me it's simply based on watching crash test comparisons. There is more forward movement in a booster because the unbelted shoulder in a booster twists out & around a bit, which means some greater risk of impacting vehicle interior. Also, a harness spreads crash force over a broader area of the body.

Even so, I only consider these things a truly vital deal breaker (assuming correct fit & maturity for booster use) in vehicles where the front seatback is close to the rear seats (like a truck with an extended instead a crew cab).

I have seen the argument that boostering somehow puts less stress on the neck/spine in a crash, but I haven't been convinced of that (considering we recommend top tethering FF harness seats for younger kids whose necks aren't as developed).

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Mommy2Marcus

New member
My personal feelings on harnessing a child is to at least 5 years old. That being said, I made the parental decision to booster my 4 year old in my MIL's truck instead of him riding in an improperly installed seat. If it were not for the fact that she will not leave a seat installed in her truck, he would be harnessed there as well.

However he will remain harnessed for at least another year in my DH's car & probably another 2 years in my car. I just feel that age 5 is a good age to start with short booster rides & booster training. After age 5, I am not going to argue with you about a booster vs harness, but before then I might.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I've seen one study that says kids under five have an increased risk of head injuries. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf

And someone has a study that says kids under 40 pounds are more at risk for submarining.

But, I'm willing to go lax on the 40 pounds if the child is older (Piper was 6y10m when she finally hit 40 pounds). But for a four year old, I'm strict on that 40 pounds.

Wendy
 

pj2rc

New member
See, the head injury argument makes sense (I skimmed the article but could't find the reference though. But there was an interesting find at end of pg 5 about injuries going up when 3 yr olds went to ff). And I get the 40# and 4 due to growth,fit, submarining, etc. And I get sliding on the 40# on an older kid that has the height and bone maturity, just not the weight. But- if not foe something like increased head injuries, I don't get why some feel the kid needs to be 5, even if they are at least 4 & 40#. What page was the head injury stuff on, I'd like to read it, just couldn't find it. Thanks
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Right, you got it. There was an increase in 2-4 year olds for head injuries in boosters. Ergo, at five there wasn't.

The other reason for not recommending four year olds in boosters is simply that most cannot sit still properly. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd be it's about 5% who can. Whereas on their fifth birthday it's probably about 50%. By the sixth, about 95%. So if we say harness to five to six years old, the odds are then pretty good that the child will be ready, or at least trainable quickly.

Wendy
 

ElfJewel

New member
My daughter turned 7 today. She is still harnessed because she WILL NOT sit still in a booster. We tried a couple of months ago (wanted to give her Nautilus to 5 yo) and within 5 minutes she had wiggled out to reach for something on the floor. If it is a short drive and someone can watch her, I will let her be in a booster, but not in my car full time. She just doesn't have the self-control yet.
 

BookMama

Senior Community Member
For me it's simply based on watching crash test comparisons. There is more forward movement in a booster because the unbelted shoulder in a booster twists out & around a bit, which means some greater risk of impacting vehicle interior. Also, a harness spreads crash force over a broader area of the body.

Even so, I only consider these things a truly vital deal breaker (assuming correct fit & maturity for booster use) in vehicles where the front seatback is close to the rear seats (like a truck with an extended instead a crew cab).

I have seen the argument that boostering somehow puts less stress on the neck/spine in a crash, but I haven't been convinced of that (considering we recommend top tethering FF harness seats for younger kids whose necks aren't as developed).

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I agree with everything papooses said. :thumbsup: I especially worry about my kid hitting the front seatback when he's boostered. He'll be 10 next month, and is obviously boostered full-time now, so he's always in the middle in our Ford Focus.
 

christineka

New member
My daughter turned 7 today. She is still harnessed because she WILL NOT sit still in a booster. We tried a couple of months ago (wanted to give her Nautilus to 5 yo) and within 5 minutes she had wiggled out to reach for something on the floor. If it is a short drive and someone can watch her, I will let her be in a booster, but not in my car full time. She just doesn't have the self-control yet.

I had issues with my son, so he was harnessed until nearly 8. I have a seat to reharness should I choose, but he's been good in the bodyguard. Hehehe. He hates the bodyguard for the reason I love it for him: lap belt lockoffs! My 6 year old is good in a booster, but she's so tiny that she is harnessed for the majority of the time. It works better with a lot of kids in a minivan anyway. It has been my experience with my kids that my girls are good booster riders at age 5, but my ds sure had a lot of trouble. Until I'm proven otherwise, I will continue recommending harnessing until 5-6 years of age because I find 5-6 year old kids to usually sit well enough in a booster, but not usually 4 year olds.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
I personally suspect it's not that kids are safer or less safe at 4, but that's how the data are collected. When a first responder gets to the crash scene and makes a few quick notes about what's in the car, they may miss the details of whether a kid is harnessed or boostered. 'car seat' or 'not belted' or 'seatbelt' may be all the data gatherers have to go on. So they simply break it down that kids under 4 are harnessed, and kids over 4 are not. There's just not the detailed investigation right there to really know the difference between a harnessed 5 yo with a top tether and properly installed (what are the odds of properly installed and used? 1-5%, of course), or in a backless Cosco at age 3 and 30 (about a 33% chance of being properly used).
And the data from Sweden claiming that harnesses are bad, based on some head-force test we don't have here, are very likely based on very bio-infidelic dummies... their heads rip forward from the torso, while real children's bodies curve around much more with the harness and in the seatbelt (so less of this scary neck load thing than we think there is, and a lot more head excursion in a booster than the booster dummies show).
The main thing about a carseat is that it couples the child to the car so that the car can absorb most of the energy, and you lessen the force of the second and third impacts (there are three impacts... the car, the body into the seatbelt or car interior, and the brain and organs into the skull and bones), a harness, properly used, will do that best (and we're talking normal speeds, not NASCAR where they really do need a HANS device because the harness is attached to the car to completely reduce body motion in a 200mph crash...a harness in a child seat will stretch, the LATCH or belt will stretch, the tether will stretch, it's absorbing a LOT of energy away from the child and not causing huge neck loads).
But, statistically speaking, 4 in a booster is basically as safe (though go to the CDC data and it makes you wonder why little kids of harnessed age suffer car crashes as only the number two cause of death, while it doesn't become the number one cause till 3-4, when most kids move to boosters...?)
 

DaniChildcare

New member
i really hate car seat statistics. They don't give you the information you need to really figure out what crash deaths were caused by.

Most people are not using their seats correctly. I saw a pic the other day of a child in a booster (high back) with the seat belt behind her. Yea, the crash forces have nothing to be absorbed by, because the seat belt isn't there.

Honestly, my ideal age for boostering is 5. If they need to be harnessed after 5, fine, but that's really the age i aim for. I don't think we'll ever know which one is truly safer, but currently the data we have, show that the difference is marginal once they are 5/6 years old (baring any type of special need)

I don't think there's anything wrong with EHing, but i also seem to see that there is very little difference at 5/6 years old.

I'm curious though about children "hitting" the interior of the vehicle in a crash. I know in newer vehicles, belts automatically lock when in a crash, so it holds you back. Wouldn't this prevent a childs head from slamming into the seatback in front of them etc? This is not a sarcastic question at all btw, i am not a pro at this type of stuff, so i'm honestly curious about this?
 

Pixels

New member
There is an incredible amount of movement in a crash, even with locked belts. Even in older vehicles, belts lock automatically in a crash. If they didn't, there wouldn't be a purpose in having the belts. http://download.isiglobal.ca/transp...Close/Quicktime/TC08-141_16_UN8-233_close.mov

In a forward facing seat (untethered harness or booster), the dummy's head can not move forward more than 28 inches as measured from the LATCH anchors. Twenty-eight. That's a lot. A yardstick is 36 inches. I can't think of many vehicles where you could get even close to putting a yardstick in that space. Granted, the yardstick is eight inches longer than the limit, but it's an object that I can readily think about and visualize.
 
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Mom-of-Two

New member
The impact to vehicle seats is what makes me the most nervous about my 6.5yo using a booster in dad's car (Nissan Sentra) especially because he will not keep his passenger seat forward as I would like! No one rides with him, so I put her on that side, so that there would be more room between her in the booster, and the front passenger seat.

I installed my Marathon on the driver side for my 3yo, and while he is very rarely in dad's car (maybe 1-2 times a month) it still bugs me that in the event of a crash, even harnessed and tethered, I just feel like he would slam into the driver's seat. Men never drive close to the wheel so his seat back is not as upright as it could be, for sure.

I ask myself the harness vs booster question all the time, it is one of those that does not have a definitive answer which bugs me. My 6.5yo is 44 lbs, she has tons of time in her Regent, she is short torso for sure and she LOVES her Regent and has requested she never move. ;) So for me, that is where I get my choice to keep her harnessed for the time being! Thing is, she'd stay in it forever if I let her, and it has 3 years left on it, so I can't leave her harnessed till ten! ;)

She is a great booster rider though and does great in her Turbo, I will just never be AS comfortable with the idea of boostering, I can't help it! It is just in me! :)

It's amazing to me that here we are dwelling on such things, and SO many of the parents in my car pool line have the kindergartners in BACKLESS boosters (the norm) and I don't see how they feel they are protected, it just boggles my mind. They are just going by that 40+ lb on the box. Sad.
 

christineka

New member
My 6.5yo is 44 lbs, she has tons of time in her Regent, she is short torso for sure and she LOVES her Regent and has requested she never move. ;) So for me, that is where I get my choice to keep her harnessed for the time being! Thing is, she'd stay in it forever if I let her, and it has 3 years left on it, so I can't leave her harnessed till ten! ;)

My then 10.5 year old sat in a regent and declared it to be her seat. She kept it up, even with the offer of a backless booster. Her shoulders were really close, though, so I got a plush os parkway for her, which was almost as good.

My dd3 is quite a bit smaller than my dd1. I may have her harnessed at age 10 just because of the way things work in our vehicle. We'll see how things go as the older kids get out of boosters.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
I don't like 4 & 40... it was fine when the EH seats were so expensive... but basically, if the family can afford a harnessed option, I don't like to see kids in boosters until age 5 and 40 part time.... full time, I like 6yrs and 35lbs full time (older is more mature and more solid spine, so the weight doesn't really have to be as high for me to be okay with it)

now keep in mind we need more research... what we do know is that the risks of submarining are greater when under age 5 and when under 40lbs... the spine and hips are more solid starting at 6 (henceforth why I will compromise on the weight at that age) and of course... maturity is needed to sit properly in the booster the whole ride while awake and asleep.

So I'm always on the cautious side... if there is any doubt in your mind that your child will do well in a booster, by all means, wait and use the harnessed seat.

However, I also am very much a pragmatic person who knows that weird emergencies happen... so I like all kids over 5yrs and over 30lbs to know the basics of booster use as much as they can... know what they are, how to use them, and all that... so that, in the event some tragedy happens and Uncle/Grandpa/Grandma/Aunty/whoever has to transport them and can't install a harnessed seat and use it properly, a safe alternative will exist.

And again, proper installation and use come into play. If I HAVE to let Grandma transport little Jane/Joey because that's my childcare, and she is HORRID with harnessed seats... I'm gonna be moving the kiddo to a booster IN THAT CAR sooner than I would in another, where the seat is always 100% installed and used correctly.
 

pj2rc

New member
My oldest turns 5 in 2 weeks. I just started letting her ride in a hbb tb in my car about 3 weeks ago because I wanted make sure I'm the first and can really see see how she does. She is great, I'm completely comfortable with how she behaves in the seat, and fits. I actually let her ride just a few times last year in it so she knew how it was supposed to fit in case an emergency came up that required it, and she did great then too. But if there is a strong argument to keep her harnessed, I have no problem doing it. She will stay harnessed in DH's truck just because of the set up
 
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Victorious4

Senior Community Member
Pixels said:
I can't think of many vehicles where you could get even close to putting a yardstick in that space. Granted, the yardstick is eight inches longer than the limit, but it's an object that I can readily think about and visualize.

After I got certified I measured the backseats of all my co-workers' cars (mostly American made with a couple Subarus & Toyotas) ... the only ones that didn't have enough room even with the front seat all the way back (at a comfortable, but not reclined, angle) were extended cab trucks.

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KaysKidz

Senior Community Member
I don't know about other extended cab trucks, but our seat backs do not lock. They will move forward in an accident (just the seat back portion) with our bodies...which will create room for the rear passanger to some extent.
 

Stacy

New member
)
And the data from Sweden claiming that harnesses are bad, based on some head-force test we don't have here, are very likely based on very bio-infidelic dummies... their heads rip forward from the torso, while real children's bodies curve around much more with the harness and in the seatbelt (so less of this scary neck load thing than we think there is, and a lot more head excursion in a booster than the booster dummies show).
The main thing about a carseat is that it couples the child to the car so that the car can absorb most of the energy, and you lessen the force of the second and third impacts (there are three impacts... the car, the body into the seatbelt or car interior, and the brain and organs into the skull and bones), a harness, properly used, will do that best (and we're talking normal speeds, not NASCAR where they really do need a HANS device because the harness is attached to the car to completely reduce body motion in a 200mph crash...a harness in a child seat will stretch, the LATCH or belt will stretch, the tether will stretch, it's absorbing a LOT of energy away from the child and not causing huge neck loads).
But, statistically speaking, 4 in a booster is basically as safe (though go to the CDC data and it makes you wonder why little kids of harnessed age suffer car crashes as only the number two cause of death, while it doesn't become the number one cause till 3-4, when most kids move to boosters...?)

Jools, those crash test videos that are often linked here, showing the ff harnessed child dummys' heads whipping forward, are not entirely accurate with a real child in a crash? I am genuinely interested, I have never seen that mentioned before.
 
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