Transition from car seat to booster

With the new recomendations that came out today on the news a friend of mine asked me when the transition from car seat to high back booster is to take place and I didn't have an answer. They were going to move they're daugher from a Britax car seat to a high back booster because she's turning 5 today. Is the transition supposed to be based on age/weight/height/outgrown car seat? Can anyone tell me please. Thanks in advance )

Children should be harnessed as long as they are within the height and weight limits of their car seat.

This should never occur before 4 years _and_ 40 pounds.

Around five to six years old most kids have the maturity to ride properly in a booster seat. If their just barely five year old can sit properly, and gets the consequences, a booster is appropriate, though it'd be nice if the child was 35-40 pounds as well.

If she's wiggly, or super small, I'd keep her harnessed a bit more.

Wendy

I've just taken my 5 yr old 47lb girl back to a 5 point harness from a booster. The larger seats on the market allow you to 5 point to 85lb and 4' 9" height. Adult seat belts DO fail, especially in rollovers , so if the option is there to 5 point for longer, as it now is with the bigger seats, then do it!! Here's a pic of my girls in their new, larger seats.

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Shirley said:

I've just taken my 5 yr old 47lb girl back to a 5 point harness from a booster. The larger seats on the market allow you to 5 point to 85lb and 4' 9" height. Adult seat belts DO fail, especially in rollovers , so if the option is there to 5 point for longer, as it now is with the bigger seats, then do it!! Here's a pic of my girls in their new, larger seats.

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Yes, but at 47 pounds the Frontier requires the use of the seatbelt to install. So while you'll have a backboard attached to your child during the collision (which is important), the seatbelt can still fail. The failure rate is something along the lines of 0.000005%, though. I may be off by two zeros one way or the other. Point is, it's so rare that it's hardly worth worrying about. If YOUR seatbelt fails and you go crashing into your child, it'll be your body weight that does damage. But since that would fall under the category of a freak accident, around the same as being swept up in a tornado and landing in Oz, I wouldn't worry about it.

Also, the Frontier's harness is outgrown at 85 pounds OR when the child's shoulders go over the top slot. Then it can be used as a booster to 120 pounds OR when the child's shoulders go above the highest belt guide height. It's possible that it'll get kids to 4'9", but that's not too much more of a magic number than 1 and 20 used to be. Kids need a booster until the adult seatbelt fits them properly.

Wendy

The 5 point is also secured to the car with a tether. The seatbelt will not fail because it's forced into the safety mode when you install the seat. A 5 point distributes the force away from major organs, unlike a booster and also ensures the child remains in a seated position. Something that a booster will not do as children wriggle and move more with that freedom. Basically, why booster when you can still 5 point. It's a no brainer if you're concerned with safety. Google Kyle David Miller.

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There is no proof that a 5+y over 40# is any safer in a 5-point then a booster. Our just turned 5y got a booster last year for short trips in dhs truck. His husky is expiring soon and he is getting a booster for my car too. Start out with short trips.

Stefanie, cpst in iowa - mom to 4 great kids

Believe me, Kyle David Miller has been well discussed here. Search for it.

A tether will not hold in a seat plus child. The seatbelt will lock anyway during a collision. The only reason the belt is locked beforehand is to hold the seat in position before the crash happens.

And definitely search here for Kyle David Miller. A tragic event that shows that a three year old is not safe in a booster, but most six year olds are.

Wendy

I just wanted to add that although there's no evidence that an older child is safer in a 5-point than a booster, there's also no evidence that they aren't.

There's certainly nothing wrong with keeping a kid harnessed longer if that's what you want to do.

'hardly worth worrying about'. Hmmm well let's consider that when you're installing s 5 point you're activating the seatbelt ratchet mechanism, so it will not extend further. Also you're tethering the seat to the car chassis. Additionally a 5 point gives your child superior protection in that a) they are tightly secured b) they cannot slip out or submarine c) the force of impact is dissipated among more points away from fragile organs d) the seat cannot leave the vehicle on an impact. Research it. Kyle David Miller is a good starting point. It's a no brainer .... If a 5 point is available for your child at their weight, then invest in it. An adult seatbelted booster doesn't even come close. End of.

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Shirley said:

'hardly worth worrying about'. Hmmm well let's consider that when you're installing s 5 point you're activating the seatbelt ratchet mechanism, so it will not extend further. Also you're tethering the seat to the car chassis. Additionally a 5 point gives your child superior protection in that a) they are tightly secured b) they cannot slip out or submarine c) the force of impact is dissipated among more points away from fragile organs d) the seat cannot leave the vehicle on an impact. Research it. Kyle David Miller is a good starting point. It's a no brainer .... If a 5 point is available for your child at their weight, then invest in it. An adult seatbelted booster doesn't even come close. End of.

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LOL You're talking to a veteran technician with 17,000 posts here. I'm a moderator, and this is what I do for my job. I've worked with KDMF to install seats to needy families. I've done my research. I commend you for being an advocate for child passenger safety. Your children are by no means unsafe, and you need to make no changes to them. Nor are we saying you should.

However, I'm going to turn it back on you. Find me reputable sources (KDMF has already been shown as NOT being a reputable source) that shows that a six year old 45 pound child is safer in a harness. Yes, the harness disperses the forces over more points. It keeps the body in the seat. The Swedes think this is a terrible thing, since that puts ALL the movement on the head and neck, and doesn't allow the neck to remain stationary in relation to the rest of the upper body, thereby possibly *increasing* neck injuries. They go from rear facing to booster.

Most boosters and cars don't mind if you lock the seatbelt on a boostered child.

A child over 40 pounds has little risk of submarining out of a booster seat. That's why they don't have anti-submarine straps. The one that does starts at 40 pounds. So we're a bit baffled by it.

What we do know is that a child of the right age and size (at least five to six years old, normally, and over 40 pounds, unless that child is much older and a lightweight) is perfectly safe in a booster, just as they are in a harness. It's irresponsible to tell parents that a harness is the only safe option for your child over five. If you can find me reputable sources that say it is, I will happily and gladly read them.

There is one study I know of that says that kids under five are more at risk of head injuries in a booster. There's one study that I know of that says kids under 40 pounds are more likely to submarine in a booster. Though if the lap belt is low on the hips and fits well, even a 30 pound child in a well fitting booster is safe (we're talking a 30 pound six year old, not a 30 pound three year old).

Hang around. You're passionate. We like that. Just do YOUR research. We know all about KDMF. We were here when that hit the news. We discussed it ad nauseum. Search our archives for it. http://www.car-seat.org/search.php?searchid=3274745 Those are the ones with "Kyle David Miller" in the title alone.

Wendy

Shirley said:

'hardly worth worrying about'. Hmmm well let's consider that when you're installing s 5 point you're activating the seatbelt ratchet mechanism, so it will not extend further. Also you're tethering the seat to the car chassis. Additionally a 5 point gives your child superior protection in that a) they are tightly secured b) they cannot slip out or submarine c) the force of impact is dissipated among more points away from fragile organs d) the seat cannot leave the vehicle on an impact. Research it. Kyle David Miller is a good starting point. It's a no brainer .... If a 5 point is available for your child at their weight, then invest in it. An adult seatbelted booster doesn't even come close. End of.

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There are no statistics that prove that children are safer in a 5pt vs booster after the child is mature enough to sit properly 100% of the time. Usually this is around 5 or 6 years of age.

In Sweden, children go from rear-facing (to 4 or 5 years old) to a booster. Their belief is that the head and neck should move as one in a crash to reduce strain on the spine. A 5 point harness holds the body back and lets the head continue forward until it is stopped. This can cause stress to the spine.

We don't know what is safer yet in this argument. All we can do is look at the facts and decide what we think is best for our family.

Here, you're not the first to feel this way. Rather than rehash things that have been said already, have a gander here (you'll see KDM's video in there).

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=145681&highlight=point

Wendy

Thank you, Wendy. As always, I learned something new today! I c-s.org (I'd give you rep... but I have to spread some "rep" around 1st)

wendytthomas said:

LOL You're talking to a veteran technician with 17,000 posts here. I'm a moderator, and this is what I do for my job. I've worked with KDMF to install seats to needy families. I've done my research. I commend you for being an advocate for child passenger safety. Your children are by no means unsafe, and you need to make no changes to them. Nor are we saying you should.

However, I'm going to turn it back on you. Find me reputable sources (KDMF has already been shown as NOT being a reputable source) that shows that a six year old 45 pound child is safer in a harness. Yes, the harness disperses the forces over more points. It keeps the body in the seat. The Swedes think this is a terrible thing, since that puts ALL the movement on the head and neck, and doesn't allow the neck to remain stationary in relation to the rest of the upper body, thereby possibly *increasing* neck injuries. They go from rear facing to booster.

Most boosters and cars don't mind if you lock the seatbelt on a boostered child.

A child over 40 pounds has little risk of submarining out of a booster seat. That's why they don't have anti-submarine straps. The one that does starts at 40 pounds. So we're a bit baffled by it.

What we do know is that a child of the right age and size (at least five to six years old, normally, and over 40 pounds, unless that child is much older and a lightweight) is perfectly safe in a booster, just as they are in a harness. It's irresponsible to tell parents that a harness is the only safe option for your child over five. If you can find me reputable sources that say it is, I will happily and gladly read them.

There is one study I know of that says that kids under five are more at risk of head injuries in a booster. There's one study that I know of that says kids under 40 pounds are more likely to submarine in a booster. Though if the lap belt is low on the hips and fits well, even a 30 pound child in a well fitting booster is safe (we're talking a 30 pound six year old, not a 30 pound three year old).

Hang around. You're passionate. We like that. Just do YOUR research. We know all about KDMF. We were here when that hit the news. We discussed it ad nauseum. Search our archives for it. http://www.car-seat.org/search.php?searchid=3274745 Those are the ones with "Kyle David Miller" in the title alone.

Wendy

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Formula race car drivers choose 5 point over a regular seat belt. That speaks.

I HAVE done my research Plus to make the insinuation that I'm " irresponsible to tell parents that a harness is the only safe option for your child over five " is unfair as I have done no such thing. Being a 'veteran' doesn't necessarily make you right! So please don't pull rank like that - you're no more respected for it. I also don't appreciate you laughing at me. Additionally " no research to show" doesn't mean you pooh pooh the comment either. My goodness I've never come across a more unfriendly and judgemental thread ever before!!

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Shirley said:

Formula race car drivers choose 5 point over a regular seat belt. That speaks.

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Please do some more research. Race car drivers also use the HANS device which holds their head and neck back. Dale Earnheardt died due to injuries from having his head and head neck thrown forward and his shoulders held back (no HANS device).

A race car harness is also part of the vehicle much like a regular seat belt is. They are not sitting in a separate seat with the harness like children are. It is not a direct comparison.

Shirley said:

My goodness I've never come across a more unfriendly and judgemental thread ever before!!

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Debates are not inherently judgmental or unfriendly, that is often only the perception of the participants. This is a very typical debate. If you have a position that a 5-point harness is significantly safer than a booster, simply link the relevant studies and research to support it. Many of us have been seeking such data for years and not found it.

I have an older child who mostly rides in a 5-point harness. I believe he is safer that way, mostly because he tends to be too squirmy for a booster. Even so, I have seen no evidence to indicate that kids his age in general are any more or less safe when using a booster.

So, please, present your opinions, but please consider that there may be other opinions that differ. Without facts to support them, they are only opinions. A disagreement about a difference of opinion is not an unfriendly attack about you, it is simply a disagreement. Debates and discussions of this type are encouraged, so that anyone reading can form their own opinions on the topic, too.

Deleted

Shirley said:

The 5 point is also secured to the car with a tether. The seatbelt will not fail because it's forced into the safety mode when you install the seat. A 5 point distributes the force away from major organs, unlike a booster and also ensures the child remains in a seated position. Something that a booster will not do as children wriggle and move more with that freedom. Basically, why booster when you can still 5 point. It's a no brainer if you're concerned with safety. Google Kyle David Miller.

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Click to expand...

The seatbelt failure that happened with Kyle David Miller (assuming it was failure, since that fact has never been clear but is just what is said to have happened,) had nothing to do with the seatbelt being or not being in safety mode. It had to do with it unlatching from the buckle itself. And if a seatbelt is going to unlatch, it will make no difference if you have it locked before the collision or not - it's an irrelevant fact in regards to seatbelt failure. (Which as Wendy said, is incredibly rare to begin with.)

A booster positions the seatbelt so that it is on the bony structures of a child's body. Yes, it is 3 points instead of 5, but it is still the bony structure of the body that the force is being distributed along - this is why it's so important for a booster kid to sit properly and have a good seatbelt fit - and why it's so important for a kid to stay in a booster until the adult seatbelt fits properly.

My own daughter moved to a booster at 5.5 yrs old in our one vehicle and was harnessed in the 2nd until she asked to move full-time to a booster this last fall. There are harnessed seats she fits in still, but at her age, size, and maturity, there is no data that shows any benefit to continuing to harness her.

A booster is not dangerous for a child of the appropriate age, size, and maturity. And there is no data to indicate that a harness is superior for those children either.

Passion is wonderful and we're certainly not criticizing you for having your girls in harnesses - they're very cute by the way! It's just that we try to not scare people by telling them that the only best choice is to harness a child who is of an appropriate age, size, and maturity to be safe in a booster. :thumbsup:

eta: wow, lots of posts from the time I first started my reply. What does AR stand for?

Shirley said:

Nor can I believe how inflated and off target this discussion has become!!!! My goodness me. Goodbye everyone. This post and forum is way too AR for me.

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Assuming you mean anal retentive, I'm not sure what else you may have expected from a forum with thousands of members with signficant experience and passion regarding the topic. Of course many of us are familiar with this topic to a fine degree of detail. That kind of professional knowledge is exactly why many parents come here for advice. We allow and encourage these kinds of questions and discussions. Some questions don't have answers that are certain, as many deal only with possibilities and probabilities. The question of putting older kids in a harness or booster is one of these and it is discussed quite frequently. You can find many similar discussions in the archives as well.

snowbird25ca said:

The Passion is wonderful and we're certainly not criticizing you for having your girls in harnesses - they're very cute by the way! It's just that we try to not scare people by telling them that the only best choice is to harness a child who is of an appropriate age, size, and maturity to be safe in a booster. :thumbsup:

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Thank you! The goal of Car-Seat.Org is to inform, not to judge. Of course, being a public forum, we try to avoid censorship of opinions as much as possible in regard to debates on child passenger safety topics. That way, anyone participating can provide evidence, guidelines or other data to support their opinions, so other parents can learn from the exchange.

As I said before, my son is nearly 6 and rides in a 5-point harness most of the time. I wish I was able to say that a harness or booster is safer, but the evidence simply doesn't exist to prove it. On the other hand, today's guidelines from the AAP do seem to encourage use of a 5-point harness longer, though the wording isn't clarified with any suggested ages, weights or heights.