Question 07 Passat, 3 Across, Side Airbag?

This summer I'll need to fit 3 across in a 2007 VW Passat Wagon.

At that time our kids will be:
4.5 years 43 lbs
3.5 years 33 lbs
newborn ? lbs (lite of course)

We currently own:
2 Britax Marathon Classics
1 Graco Travelite (Base and carrier)

I've read a lot (not fit them for real yet) and think the initial (& most cost effective) install should work this way:
RF Graco Travelite (belt), FF Radian 80SL (belt), FF Britax Marathon (belt)
Followed shortly with this install:
FF Britax Marathon (belt), RF Britax Marathon (belt), FF Radian 80SL (belt)

My concern & questions are these

I've read the threads about Rear Side Impact Airbags. Most imply that they are ok as long as the child is seated properly. Also in a car seat the bags are designed to not compromise the seat protection. In nearly every post there is little to no reference to side airbags with 3 across, which by all accounts usually consumes the space from door handle to door handle (ours will). Because of the 3 across configuration the car seat is not in the latch position and therefore, I would assume, is not "seated properly" by the manufacturers definition and testing. In a dry run of the seats I have, it seems to me there might be a few problems in regards to the airbag.

Q1 - First the seat is so close to the door that there is simply no space and the bag will push the seat inward (rotating the car seat) if deployed.
Q2 - Second is the car seat back has to be so close to the door as it appears to be blocking the exit point of the bag (the physical threaded seam of the exit point of the bag)(again possible compromise).
Q3 - And Last because the seat is resting against the bag location, the VW seat does not compress (like foam would) and the car seat then ends up on a slight angle to the forward travel of the car.

My question relate to the above comments:
1 - Is the lack of space between the seat and door handle a problem, specifically regarding an airbag deployment?
2 - If the car seat back (plastic rails) physically rest over the threaded seam of the airbag exit point is that a problem?
3 - If the seat is secure, yet not completely in line with the forward direction of travel (at a slight angle) due to the in-compressibility of the airbag vs. foam, is that angle a problem?

I've done a little searching into this but have not yet called the car manufacturer. One car seat expert (which I did not relay as clearly my concerns) suggested that there is no record of side impact airbags injuring kids in car seats that she knew of. That the bags are tested for out of position kids (and seats) and that she was not overly concerned by the 3 across and airbag concerns.

Any help is greatly appreciated!! (including any other 3 across suggestions) Thanks!

As they're side curtain airbags and should be coming down over the windows, I wouldn't be too concerned. Worst case scenario the carseat blocks them and they don't do anything. Your child's head is still protected by the shell of the seat. And studies have shown that passengers actually fare better with a seat next to them, so I wouldn't worry about the three across aspect.

Not sure what carseat you have for the baby, though. I think "Travelite" is a pattern. I'm going to guess that it's a Graco Snugride 22, though.

Wendy

wendytthomas said:

As they're side curtain airbags and should be coming down over the windows, I wouldn't be too concerned. ...

Not sure what carseat you have for the baby, though. I think "Travelite" is a pattern. I'm going to guess that it's a Graco Snugride 22, though.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately were talking about different airbags. This car has two airbags per rear seat occupant. The side curtain airbags as well as a side impact airbag. The side impact airbags deploy from a vertical sewn seam in the seat itself (not from the ceiling or ceiling post). On an adult the bag would be fully deployed between their arm and the armrest in the space under the armpit to their hips.

So my concern about the side airbag (not curtain) stems from it's deployment from within the seat, of which the car seat might actually be resting on the airbag. (I'll try to post a picture)

The car seat is from a Graco Metrolite Travel System bought in 2007. It closely resembles the snugride but I thought it had a different name.

The Metrolite is the name of the travel system. The carseat involved is a Snugride.

I'd love to see pictures, thanks. I've seen a few cars with rear torso airbags, but only in the last year or two, and never in a VW. Just in Lexus and Mercedes.

Wendy

We have a '98 Passat w/side impact airbags. I did a TON of research years ago, and I don't know if I can find those links anymore. Someone else asked this awhile ago, and I couldn't find them. There was some research thing done by auto engineers or someone like that looking at these issues.

BUT they are SAFE. It is fine, even w/your three seats across. Even w/our two seats, one in each outboard position, they do get pretty close to those airbag seams. The seats do install tightly, no problem. They don't fire out like front airbags do. They shouldn't be pushing the carseats--they expand slowly and more fill the open space. And the seat will compress just fine when you install the seats.

Considering that VW has been putting those side impact bags in the back of many of their vehicles for a long time and we haven't heard anything about a problem w/them, I think it's safe to say, it probably isn't a problem.

I would not be too concerned. I'm not concerned. We've had our Passat for 5 years now.

I know I'm not a professional, but I could find NOTHING from the car manufacturers or the carseat manufacturers (I called and asked) that indicated they were unsafe. Honestly, if they were going to be a problem, I think they'd be far more a problem and a safety risk for an obese person than a kiddo in a carseat (and no one is putting a weight limit on who sits in those seats).

hths

henrietta

If they were a problem I'd imagine VW would have a prohibition in their manuals about installing car seats there.

Using seatbelts to install is perfectly acceptable--it would not be considered "improper" not to use LATCH.

I don't know much about side impact airbags, but I have to assume that they deploy much less forcibly than a front airbag considering their proximity to the passenger.

I wouldn't worry about it in the least.

henrietta said:

...w/side impact airbags. I did a TON of research years ago, and I don't know if I can find those links anymore. ...
...they do get pretty close to those airbag seams. The seats do install tightly, no problem. ...
...for a long time and we haven't heard anything about a problem w/them, I think it's safe to say,...
... I could find NOTHING from the car manufacturers or the carseat manufacturers (I called and asked) that indicated they were unsafe. ...

Click to expand...

LISmama810 said:

... VW would have a prohibition in their manuals about installing car seats there.

Using seatbelts to install is perfectly acceptable--it would not be considered "improper" not to use LATCH. ...

Click to expand...

There's nothing in the manual against it, also I agree, obesity would fall into that space as well, so there must have been some consideration given in the design for encroaching on that space. I called VW and have not yet gotten a response.

My comment on improper placement was referencing that the seat is not centered on the seating position, rather skewed to the side of the car. Today I did a dry run of the 2 Britax seats, the photos closely resemble actual placement against the airbag. It shifted a little, so it's possible it would be about 1 to 2 inches closer to the bag to make the third seat fit. So far it actually did not look as bad as I thought it would be.

I'm getting comfortable that most of you feel it's ok to place it there. Please comment more if you have something to offer, also I still need to know about this question (3 - If the seat is secure, yet not completely in line with the forward direction of travel (at a slight angle) due to the in-compressibility of the airbag vs. foam, is that angle a problem?)

Ok, here's the photos (sorry if took a while to load):
Red= airbag of concern Green = side curtain airbag, not a concern

It's fine for seats to be slightly angled. It'd be impossible to get them always straight forward (or straight backward) depending on the car and carseat combo.

Wendy

I ended up buying the Radian 80sl to get me started. So it's currently installed this way:

FF Britax Marathon Belt install
RF Graco Snugride Belt install
FF Radian 80sl Belt install

When the baby outgrows the Snugride I can swap in a RF Britax Marathon easily.

Before buying the Radian I tested them out together in the parking lot of a Buy Buy Baby. It was nice to test it first. In doing so I found having the Snugride outboard would not work, the Britax encroached the Radian too much.

When the Britax is belt installed the belt pulls the seat evenly into the wedge of the seat making slippage vertically or horizontally minimal. One question- because the Radian is designed so much lower the belt is routed through the back giving great vertical restraint but allowing some horizontal (front to back) movement. I do not like any movement but am sure it's installed correctly. Is some front to back movement normal in the Radian design and is it ok (roughly 2 in travel)?

I am planning on having it professionally checked soon.

I did receive a call back from VW. They said an object (person or assumed seat) can touch the door handle with no risk to the occupant in the case of a torso airbag deployment.

If you take *one* hand, hold the Radian at the side near it's belt path, and give it a tug, it should not move more than *one* inch side to side. That's the key. And it needs to be checked w/o another carseat pressed up next to it. If it doesn't move side to side more than an inch, it's good. You don't need to pull it all over the place, up and down, front to back, or anything like that to test your install.

Make sure you read the instructions on the Radian (I'm pretty sure you have...). There's something about a recline block/foot on Radians, but since I'm not a Radian owner and I've never used one, I don't know what that applies to exactly. Also, the lower anchors make make a Radian install easier b/c of that low belt path OR try installing the Radian in the center instead. You may find that installs are a bit better if you put a forward facing seat in the middle instead.

GL!

henrietta

Ok, I'm now past the Snugride setup from above and on to this one:

FF Britax Marathon (belt), RF Britax Marathon (belt), FF Radian 80SL (belt)


I need a second seat for the other car and am trying to plan for the future in the Passat. Most likely I'll need another setup when my 4 year old outgrows the Britax Marathon (shoulders too high) or my 5 year old outgrows the Radian (again, shoulders).

Given the three across setup I need a 5 point harness for the tallest/heaviest possible size that fits at or very near 17in wide max. I tried a booster, but it's very difficult to buckle the belt properly, not acceptable, so I want the 5 point as long as possible (safer too, I know).

My Radian 80SL has a max height of 53" and allows for the top belt to be below as long as the ears fit (seat height).

It seems the new Radian 120 has a 57" max height and higher back straps. Is that the best option for both 5 point, narrow, and big kids?

Overall height means little. The Radian is outgrown when the ears go over the top of the seat. I think the 53" was because that's how tall the engineer's daughter was at the time when he sat her in it and she was outgrowing it (I'm not kidding).

The Radian is 17" wide with 17.5" top slots and allows for the shoulders to go over. I think you'll find that that's your best option. At 17" wide, that's actually your ONLY option.

Wendy