Question Is it legal to have an under 12YO in the front seat w/ a deactivated airbag?

Long story short had a problem w/ my 5YO being put in the front seat, I know it is not safe, he's RF in my car, so don't get me started, but is it LEGAL?

NOT legal b/c he was in a LBB & he's not 40# so that's a start of illegal but...

Two different conversations if it's legal vs not...on top of the safety & illegal booster use...

It's BC Canada if that matters.

tam

Not legal as he does not meet the requirements for booster use. Safety now, that is another thing entirely.

Why was he put in the front seat? I always heard that the oldest harnessed child goes in the front seat with airbag deactivated and seat pushed all the way back.

Is another child that does meet the weight requirements of that booster *legal* in the front seat? Air bag deactivated.

What about a 10YO that passes the 5 step test? Is it Legal?

She put him in the front seat b/c she took an extra child that day (total 4 in a Jetta) & she is smaller than him. She put HER in his seat (that I paid for b/c her seats were expired) & him in the front. Aside from the obvious safety part, it really ticks me off b/c her parents didn't care that she was riding in an expired booster under 40# before we came to the d/c, she uses his seat the other 4 days a week, but my kid was the one that was put in the front seat, when he had a seat that I bought that he is legally required to be in...

None of the 4 children in the car meet booster weights on that day. On the other 4 days of the week, 1 of the children does. She normally sits in the front seat. It's actually an improvement, she had all expired seats 10+years old, when I got there. I bought my 2 kids Maestros & had a LBB that you guys told me not to use w/ my guys friends (over 40#), so I gave her that too...

Oh, and the parents knew that she had very *old* seats at the very least. They also know that their kids are put in the front seat, it's two families w/ ODD/YDD situations. They also (should) know that their kids last year & 1 still this year do not meet the 40# weight requirement for a booster seat. All four ride in booster seats, 2 in AOE other 2 in LBB in their parent's cars...


tam

Ugh, that's awful use all the way around by the families and DC provider. It's awful in any case but to put your child in the front when she knows how much you care as opposed to one of the kids whose parents don't care (I now that sounds callous) is just icing on the cake. :thumbsdown:

BC laws, it looks like it isn't illegal to use the front seat?:
http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=445&languageId=1&contentId=5270

We are reminding all residents of important changes to BC Child Safety Seat Regulations effective July 1st, 2008.

All drivers will be responsible for transporting all children in an age- and weight-appropriate child seat until they are 145cm tall or 9 years old. Children must also be properly restrained no matter who is driving.

There are four different stages of protection:

Up to one year
9 kg (20 lb)
Rear-facing child car seat
NOT on a front seat with an active air bag

Over one year
9 kg to 18 Kg (20 to 40 LB)
Forward-facing child car seat
May remain rear-facing if allowed by manufacturer’s weight limit

Until 9th birthday
Over 18 kg (40 lb) unless they have reached 145 cm (4'9") in height
Booster seat and lap/shoulder seat belt
May remain in forward-facing child car seat with harness if allowed by manufacturer’s weight limit
If no lap/shoulder seat belt, must be secured without a booster seat by a lap belt

After 9th birthday
Seat belt
May remain in booster seat if allowed by manufacturer’s weight limit

Child car seats must also be installed according to manufacturer’s and vehicle instructions and seats purchased outside Canada are not approved for use in BC.

Click to expand...

She needs to not be taking all the little kids out at once if she can't provide proper seating. What is your situation wrt child care? How hard would it be to find another provider? The fact that she does these things regularly scares me. I prefer my DC to never take the kids out in a vehicle, personally.

BC doesn't have an under 12 law. But all children must be properly restrained, so if a child occupies the front passenger seat and requires a booster, they must be in a booster. If they're required to be in a harnessed seat, they must be in a harnessed seat (AND it must be tethered, either to an anchor behind or to a seatbelt behind). Let's hope they're not rear-facing.

Given the choice between a 10yo and a 5yo under 40lbs in a booster, in an emergency..that's a tough choice, but if someone were making that choice IMO they have no right to put the child that is not their own at risk. I used to drive 7 kids on fieldtrips, and I always put my own child in the front passenger seat. Ideally, the oldest/tallest and most restrained from head excursion should be in front of the airbag, if it needs to happen. Basically--whoever is the most developed, has the highest seated height, and will move forwards towards the airbag the least.

-N.

Tam--a point to make about using boosters under 40lbs and daycare providers.. Choose your battles--if their booster use, and carseat use in general is so piss-poor.. I honestly would rather see them put that 35, 36, 37lb older 4yo or 5+ year old in a booster versus a harnessed seat.. Why? What's the chances the harnessed seat is installed or used properly? Zip. At least a booster is a no-brainer, and you can train your own child to use is properly. Besides--it's her ticket if she gets pulled over, and you know you're doing the safest thing for your own child if you choose care with this woman. I personally would not allow my children to be under the care of anyone who didn't value carseat use as much as I do.

I have a bigger issue with any child in the lapbelt centre rear (assuming her car isn't brand-brand new?) than I do with a 5 year old under 40lbs in a booster... from a safety perspective, NOT a legal one.

Once again--this is from the perspective of SAFETY, and not legality. We all know it's illegal to use a booster under 40lbs.

-N.

Thanks so much ladies! I'm still so sick over this...d/c situation here is dismal, I truly am lucky to have her. She only takes 4 kids max, usually only 3 per day. She's very OCD, watches the kids closer than I do when playing at the park...Someoene suggested that I get another mom from pre-school to pick him up on Mondays, so I think that's what I'm going to do...he already has a seat so that will work well!

Usually they walk to pre-school unless it's raining. NO idea what happened...And, usually it's only 3 kids Monday...

I wouldn't say she doesn't value car seat safety, it's more she does not *get* it if that makes sense. When I told her all her car seats were expired & 2 were recalled, she was horrified & embarrassed & took steps to discard the OHS one she had immediately & bought the Scenera I told her to get.

I totally get the 37# kid in a booster kid over improperly installed car seat thing! That's a great point!

ALL of the seats were installed by myself & a friend. They do not come out of the car until Summer when I'll take them out & put them back in for September. They are in correctly.

I adjusted the straps/harness height myself & check the kids (mine & hers) in September & January. SHE even came over here in September to have them harness heights checked & that she'd put the right kids in the right seats. January I just popped over to her car when she was going to pre-school on my day off... My two kids share seats w/ two other kids on opposing days. So, I totally thought she more than *got* it. She would not have told me he was there if she didn't think it was ok, she saw my face & that I was too upset to talk about it...I out right said that my ds is NOT to ride in the front seat, ever. AND, that he is not booster seat weight legal. So it was illegal.

My ds does his straps up himself, he knows how & adjusts the chest clip correctly, he's 5...

There really needs to be better laws for stuff like this, it's known to not be safe so...

Oh, and no one I know IRL values car safety the way I do, my 5YO is still RF (his choice I'd be fine w/ him FF) so...

tam

Cat, forgot loved your comments, made me laugh, first time I've laughed about any of this. The sad reality is that it's not my job to parent or keep the other children safe. I've already spent over $100 which elevated her safety, no offer of money was made for the 4 days a week her child rides in the seats, they attend the same pre-school, her mom knows that I bought them so...Same child's mom let her ODD ride in the front seat for several years & lets both hers ride in boosters in her own car...so not ok!

tam

The front seat isn't necessarily unsafe. It's just less safe than the other seating positions in most cases. Not even in all cases (eg. child in lapbelt vs in a booster in a lap/shoulderbelt in the front).. With dual and multi-stage airbags in vehicles made in the last 5-6 years, that front passenger seat becomes a viable option for transporting properly restrained forward-facing children. Obviously, using that seating position should be reserved for when the situation requires its use.

-Nicole.

REALLY Nicole!? That makes me feel better! I'm still not ok with it...but *that* kind of makes the difference as to dumping the d/c here & now & giving the lady 1 more chance & making it *MORE* clear that my children are to ride in the seats that I *Bought* & paid for, for them, as by law they are required to be in *those* seats & no other. And, if that's not possible, then ODS can skip pre-school that day, or they can walk...AND, of course what you already said about the booster seat. I have images of him submarining under the seat belt in a tragic accident...I already lost one baby from a car accident, caused too early delivery, loosing another would push me right over the edge...

It so is the icing on the cake that the child that was in his seat, has parents that did not bother to buy their child an appropriate harnessed seat for their/her car &/or that she let her kids, knowingly ride in the front seat, in an expired booster, under 40# anyway...Oooohhh, seriously that just makes me the maddest! I get that my guy is a bit bigger than her, but it's his flippen seat...Probably, one more reason I happily bought/paid for their seats...Uggg!

tam

Long story short had a problem w/ my 5YO being put in the front seat, I know it is not safe, he's RF in my car, so don't get me started, but is it LEGAL?

Click to expand...

Front seat is just as safe as the rear seat.

I'll let the other gurus here speak on the question on legality and briefly discuss overall safety.

A child is just as safe in front seat as in the rear seat. This apply for both rear facing and forward facing children. *Airbag must always be deactivated!* Front passenger seat, with deactivated airbag, is actually safer for a rear facing child thanks to a number of factors.

How do we know the front seat is safe? As some know we use front seat extensively in Sweden. We have been doing this since we started keeping kids rear facing in 1965. A high percentage of parents today deactivate airbag, with key or switch, and keep rear and forward facing children in front passenger seat. It's safe, convenient and practical for space.

Lots of research has of course been done by safety gurus such as VTI, Volvo, NTF etc. which confirm front passenger sat safety. Visting Volvo online show front seat as just as safe as other seats for example. Volvo might not be making the best cars but they do know about safety. We also clearly see the excellent safety in front seat by looking at accident statistics etc.

Ok, I actually feel better now that you described how she does really care, even if she is not always informed or making the best decisions. I would not be dropping her for a mistake as opposed to blatant disregard. :twocents: Sounds like maybe she was trying to make that "best" decision of putting the bigger child in the booster and up front, but there is no best decision when they are all illegal. Not sure what happened but if it is a possibility that this situation will come up again she needs to have plans in place for having someone she trusts (and she let you know about) watch 1-2 of the kids so she can transport them in batches. My past DCP had her sister or niece come watch the kids if she had an appointment or emergency (she didn't have seats and never took the kids away from her house), we were informed ahead of time that this was the plan if something was to come up. I trusted her judgement on a fill-in.

But do make it clear that unless she has a child who is legal in a booster that she cannot be putting them in the front seat. Not only because it's not right but I would think she would worry over liability if she did get in a crash and the child she was transporting illegally was injured or killed. Or even criminal charges of some sort for causing death through negligence.

AdventureDad, I disagree with your statement of the front seat being just as safe, airbag or no. Crash statistics show that persons (Adult or child) have a 45% chance of surviving a collision with minimal injury when restrained in the rear seating area when compared to being restrained as a front passenger.

My personal rule for the front seat: If you're old enough to hold a driver's licence, you're old enough to sit in the front. Otherwise get your but in the back! In cases where I've had more children than i have seating available in the back, we've always found a way to bring a second vehicle. Be it my mom, my friends, or another parents, we've made do. And I can't confirm or deny that on one outing with friends and family, I provided all 11 kids with safe seats, and installed them in all 6 different vehicles we were taking to the zoo.... heh... that was a couple years ago, and my collection is much reduced since then.

Cat, I most certainly will! "But do make it clear that unless she has a child who is legal in a booster that she cannot be putting them in the front seat." I've also asked the other Pre-school moms to *watch* for it. Everyone knows my position on car seat safety...I feel like a butt b/c I was the one that told her something like the largest child is the one that has to sit in the booster seat, referring to the 4 days a week (mine are not there) & she has 4 kids. So, w/ the parents knowledge, one of the Kindergarten students rides up there, as did her sister before her...She of course is over 40# & they use the booster seat that was not *good* enough for me (bought Graco LBB & then found out a HBB was more appropriate for a 5YO, so I wasn't going to use it before it expired and...). At any rate, while I'd say it was obvious & assumed & that my kids ride in the Maestros I bought them for her car & that the expired seats she had were unsafe....I never explicitly said mine could not ride in MY LBB...NOT that I should have had to, though, in her defence, she knows I'm Type A about car seats & may have thought I was being over zealous about keeping them harnessed longer vs still required...But, I will see her Friday and REMIND her that my guy is not 40# & he can skip pre-school should she have 4 kids again & that is just fine w/ me...If it happens too often, I will make arrangments for him to be picked up by another pre-school mom, but that means buying a 3rd Maestro for one day a week for 4 months AND they walk if it's not raining...

I LOVE the old enough to drive then you can sit in the front seat rule! I like that! I'm sure front vs back seat safety depends on how/where/when the accident happens w/ most accidents being the front of the car, the back is of course safer, but you can't predict how an accident will happen, but w/ a 2 block drive, you can predict low(er) speeds...

Just so not ok that everyone doesn't just *know* this, they need to add car seat safety to the driver's test!

tam