Wanted: Head-safety features of Frontier in non-Frontier CS

The question up front, then the background.

I would VERY much like to find the "Revolutionary Head Safety Technology" that the current Britax Frontier 85 has, but in a different car seat.

I'd buy the Frontier, but need a carseat that is easy to swap between multiple cars (carpooling), and was told unequivocally by the knowledgeable staff at my local kids' store that the Frontier is not only incredibly vexing to get into cars, but simply won't work with some cars (seat belt not long enough).

The background:
I don't buy marketing hype, but as a Physics teacher I was extremely impressed with the new technologies that the Frontier employed to reduce forward head excursion in a crash, and really really want them for my special-needs child (more on that below). There are three elements to the technology: Versa-Tether, SafeCell Technology, and Integrated Steel Bars.

The versa-tether is a staged-release tether, implemented by stitching in the webbing that is designed to release in sequencing, lengthening the time of the "collision," thus reducing peak force experienced. In terms of collision physics, it's an excellent idea, and, having visually inspected it (I've got experience with webbing stitching from hang gliding), I'm confident it would provide significant improvements over the norm, even above the weight limit.

The SafeCell is a crushable area below the seat. The hype talks about "lowering center of gravity," but really the pertinent physics are about rotation. I don't have the differential equation skills to back this up, but my physics intuition (usually pretty reliable) makes me confident that this would provide a significant reduction of forward head excursion.

The Integrated Steel bars sound great and all, but I don't have sufficient understanding of car seat design to have a judgment as to whether they offer an improvement in collision physics or just marketing.

So my more specific question is: are there any other car seats of good quality that have features equivalent to either or both the "SafeCell" and "Versa-tether?"

Further background (you can skip if you already get my question--this is just the Papa Bear part): We're all okay. My family of four was involved in a nasty head-on collision last week, totaling both cars. The relative speed was 70-90 mph (each going 35-45 mph) on icy roads. The other driver lost control and came into my lane broadside. We need a new car seat to replace the old one (precaution--no visible damage to it). So I'm a little extra-focused on safety right now.

The other factor that makes these head issues so important to me is that my daughter has a dwarfing condition called achondroplasia (same as the mom and son on "Little People Big World"). As a result, she is at greatly increased
risk of cervical/spinal cord injury, resulting from the wicked combination of a large head (lots of inertia), lax ligaments (the vertebra-skull connection is looser than normal), and constricted passage of the spinal cord into the skull.

So, having found some technologies that I believe would be a significant improvement to safety, I am keen to find them in a car seat that we can use in our carpool situation.

Thanks so much for your responses!

Cheers,
Greg Craven (under my wife's account)

well, in general, the safest carseat is one that fits the car, child, budget, and will be used and installed properly each and every time.

which leads to some specific questions - how old is your daughter?

What is her height?

weight??

what slots in the frontier is she using?

I am glad to hear all passengers faired well in your collision - that is wonderful news.

I love your prospective (being in physics) and breaking down the force information that I don't have a full grasp on. You definitely get to look at the world differently than most lay persons :thumbsup:

I wanted to point out a few things:
The SafeCell technology is in the Britax Roundabout 55, Marathon 70, Boulevard 70(& cs version) and Advocate 70. The Frontier 85 already has a lower center of gravity and does not need the safecell to crush into. All of these seats rear face and then forward face.

The Frontier 85 is a forward facing only seat and you were told correctly... it is not a seat for the faint of heart or meant for "transferability" between vehicles at a high frequency. Also it has a minimum 25lb weight limit...

By the time I've finished this post - there will be a resounding amount of input being poured out about the safety of rear facing. I highly recommend looking into rear facing your daughter. The Britax convertibles are known for their ease of installation (especially the classic version) and are the go to seat when I let my parents or husband install a seat without my supervision.

The best thing for maximum safety is rear facing. I don't know your daughter's age or weight, so I don't know if it's reasonable or not. But rear facing for as long as possible is recommended for all children, and especially for special needs conditions that result in a large head and/or c-spine instability. When rear facing, the entire head, neck, and spine are supported by the shell of the carseat, keeping them aligned.

I agree with all of the above. More info about your precious cargo would be helpful, and rear-facing her would be ideal if it is possible.

I wanted to comment on the seat that was in the accident. It absolutely needs to be replaced and destroyed. Your crash would qualify as a severe crash, and you ALWAYS replace after anything but a minor accident (Britax follows NHTSA guidelines for crash replacement).

jess71903 said:

I agree with all of the above. More info about your precious cargo would be helpful, and rear-facing her would be ideal if it is possible.

I wanted to comment on the seat that was in the accident. It absolutely needs to be replaced and destroyed. Your crash would qualify as a severe crash, and you ALWAYS replace after anything but a minor accident (Britax follows NHTSA guidelines for crash replacement).

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I didn't see anything in the crash description that said that it was definitely not a minor crash, though it certainly sounds like it wouldn't be minor.

Britax is not the only manufacturer that follows NHTSA guidelines. Check the owner's manual for your seats.

Pixels said:

I didn't see anything in the crash description that said that it was definitely not a minor crash, though it certainly sounds like it wouldn't be minor.

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The OP states that both cars were totalled. I think it's fair to assume the crash was not minor.

My daughter is 5 years old, 36 inches tall, and 35 pounds. We switched her from backward facing to forward facing when she was just under the 30-lb max rating for backward facing in her carseat at the time (not sure the make and model). Didn't put her in the Frontier, so don't know which slots she'd use.

It hear loud and clear that rear-facing is the safest by far, and I've felt so for a long time. My wife has a different risk tolerance and viewpoint than mine, and felt strongly that Alex be turned around even though she hadn't reached the weight limit (I was interested in doing research into what the risks would be for exceeding the limit) because she was starting to be frustrated that she couldn't see what the rest of us were.

So going back to rear-facing is likely to be a big issue for Alex. Though perhaps the fight would be lessened in light of the recent accident.

So, in deciding whether to pursue rear-facing, it would be useful to know how much better rear-facing is from forward-facing.

Thanks so much for the help! I've come to the right place.

Cheers,
Greg

There are now child restraints in the US with 45lb rear facing limits. I can tell you by looking at your daughters stats that she would in fact fit. In terms of concrete numbers of the safety advantage of RF vs. FF - what we have in the US is a study that found that in children aged 12-23 months, those who were FF were 5.32 times more likely to suffer serious or fatal injuries than their RF counterparts in the most serious crashes. There is no data as of yet as to the margin of safety advantage in kids older than 23 months, because it simply has not been a common enough practice in North America to provide an adequate data pool for that info. Up until the last two years, there we no seats in north america that rear faced beyond 35lbs. Now there are many. The majority of the members of this board RF their children to 35-45lbs.

I will leave it up to someone else to provide the links, as I'm posting from my phone, but in the meantime, you might google "extended rear facing" or check out www.carseat.se for some good info on why RF is safest.

I'm glad to hear your family is okay after such a scary collision.
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For most kids, at 5yrs old, it's fine for to be front facing.

but, with the larger head in contrast to the spine, I think I would be more likely to keep her rearfacing.

she's definitely small enough to fit... and I'm sure most doctors who specialize in the spine would agree with me that she would be safer rearfacing because of her larger head for as long as may be.

I'd look into seats with a 40-45lb rearfacing weight limit.

Is it possible for you to get a torso measurement of your daughter? At 36 inches, she will most likely fit rear facing in many seats, but I want to make sure her proportion isn't too far off to fit. To get a torso measurement, sit her on the floor against the wall, and mark the tops of her shoulders, then measure from the floor to the mark. She is about the same size as my 2 year old, but heavier. My 2 year old is a bit longer in the torso than legs, and I have feeling your daughter is even moreso given her achondroplasia. If I had to guess, I bet she has a normal 5 year old torso, which would be 16-18 inches or so (rather than the normal torso for a 36 inch child, which would be 13-14 inches).

PS: this can also be guessed at by what size clothes she wears. Like, my 2 year old can wear my 4 year old's size 4 shirts with out them looking too big (he needs a bit of length), but can still wear some 18-24 month pants, but is more like a 2T pant.

jodicoleman said:

So, in deciding whether to pursue rear-facing, it would be useful to know how much better rear-facing is from forward-facing.

Thanks so much for the help! I've come to the right place.

Cheers,
Greg

Click to expand...

I wouldn't persue RF for a 5 year old if I were buying a new seat because at 5, her bones are more than likely ossified and can protect her spinal cord. In the interest of just knowing for fun, though, check out www.joelsjourney.org. On the FAQ/links page, there is a ton of information and links, a few of which are actual study results and scholarly journal articles.

jess71903 said:

I wouldn't persue RF for a 5 year old if I were buying a new seat because at 5, her bones are more than likely ossified and can protect her spinal cord. In the interest of just knowing for fun, though, check out www.joelsjourney.org. On the FAQ/links page, there is a ton of information and links, a few of which are actual study results and scholarly journal articles.

Click to expand...

I agree for a typical child, but OP's daughter has special needs that increase her risk.

And, for even more info on rear facing in general:

carseatblog post:

http://carseatblog.com/5168/why-rear-facing-is-better-your-rf-link-guide/

The last video on that page is a great animated visual of how the physics work.

Thanks all!

FYI my daughter's shoulder height is 16".

We're focusing on the Sunshine Kids Radian XTSL at this point. It's got a staged release tether (and I'm told also staged release harness) to reduce the maximum force to the neck in a head-on by increasing the time to stop (I believe it's referred to as "ride down time" in the industry). The system is called "SafeStop."

My remaining concern regards a multi-car crash, or a second crash into a stationary object (tree, pole, overpass base). I anticipate the SafeStop system would leave the harness and tether quite loose, increasing risk for injury in a secondary collision. So it becomes an issue of risk assessment: larger benefit for the more common threat (head-on), with larger danger for the less common event (secondary collision).

Does anyone have any experience or links for any studies or analysis on this? I imagine it would have to combine the results of crash tests with the statistics for types of crashes.

Thanks so much,
Greg (OP on my wife's account)

The Radian doesn't have a staged release on the tether, but it does on the harness. Britax seats have a staged release on the tether, but not on the harness.

As far as an initial collision leaving everything loose, yes, that will happen no matter what. Seatbelts stretch, LATCH systems stretch, and the harness itself will stretch on any seat even if it doesn't have SafeStop. All that stretching increases the delta T, thereby reducing F. Everything will be loose anyway after the initial collision, so I don't know that things like the rip-stitch in Britax's tether or the SafeStop on the Radians will make a significant difference in how loose things are in case of a secondary collision.

Okay, so she has a torso measurement about the same as my 4 year olds. He is still rear facing in a radian xtsl with quite a bit of room overhead, but if he was forward facing in it, he would need the top slots already. There might not be enough growing room for you dd in it, maybe only a year or 2.

Knowing the cars you will need to switch the seats in and out of might help. The radian is not known for the easiest of installs in some vehicles.

THis is my son back in May, at 3 years 4 months, torso about 15.5 inches or so, forward facing.



rear facing a few months before, he was about 39 inches and 35ish pounds.



Now, that said and shown, the nautilus actually performs quite well in the crash tests. I can't seem to remember what link posted the criteria, though.

The frontier may not be as much of a bear as you might think to install in the vehicles you might need to install in.

I know one of your initial concerns was the ease of transferring the seat back and forth between vehicles for car pooling. The Radian, is again, another seat that has a learning curve for installation. We have a whole thread dedicated to "successful installs" because the Radian is not the most compatible seat.

Do all of the cars have LATCH (Lower Anchors and top Tether for Children) in them?

I know you are looking for unique and advanced features in the car seat... we all are. However, we really don't have any tests that can prove that one manufacturer has coined the "safest" way to make a child restraint.

We have, however, proof that a properly used and installed seat is safe and safer than a high end (priced) car seat that may have a compromised install or use.