Question Chest Clips hinderance to safety?

jlginsb · Nov 4, 2010

I know that chest clips aren't on European car seats but honestly I don't know the reasoning.

I had contacted SKJP today after the chest clip on my Radian 80 broke for the 2nd time since 2008 (was replaced before). I also have a second Radian 80 and have had that chest clip break once as well. Since I've had 3 clips break in 2 years of normal use in a backup car, I decided to contact them to see what they would say about it breaking that often.

When I contacted SKJP they told me that it was okay if it broke because it wasn't necessary for the safey of the car seat--that's fine because I imagine testing is done without clips and clips usually break in an accident anyway.

However, SKJP went on to say (and I quote) "While accepted and preferred in North America, chest clips are considered a hindrance to safety and actually illegal to use on car seats that confirm to European car seat standards".

I have a hard time accepting the hindrance to safey argument as if that were the actual case, the NHTSA would have banned them in the U.S.

So what's the real story? Are chest clips only on U.S. car seats to pacify U.S./Canadian parents as SKJP would leave me to believe?

I'm not trying to criticize SKJP I just want to understand the issue of why they are used here and not in Europe?

christineka · Nov 4, 2010

jlginsb said:
So what's the real story? Are chest clips only on U.S. car seats to pacify U.S./Canadian parents as SKJP would leave me to believe?

I believe they are correct. In the US, chest clips are often not placed correctly. If in an accident with an improperly placed chest clip, abdominal injuries can occur. There are also some people that for whatever reason decide their child only needs one clip done up. They choose the chest clip, which is not designed to hold a child in. If they only had the crotch buckle as an option, many of those would likely, choose to buckle it.

I believe in Europe they require the child to be able to get out of the seat with one movement. It makes sense to only have the one crotch buckle to get the child out. I believe in emergencies the harness straps are often cut, but many of us regular people do not keep seatbelt cutters in our vehicles for quick emergencies.

Pixels · Nov 4, 2010

European seats require that the harness can be undone with one hand, so only one buckle. This is to be able to get the child out ASAP if necessary, ie car fire. It's such a rare thing that US and Canada doesn't worry about it.

I've heard the abdominal injury theory a few times, but honestly I don't believe it. Crash dynamics don't force the abdomen against the harness, they push the pelvis and shoulders against the harness. The abdomen actually gets pushed away from the harness as the child's shoulders come down towards the knees and hips.

safeinthecar · Nov 4, 2010

Pixels said:
I've heard the abdominal injury theory a few times, but honestly I don't believe it. Crash dynamics don't force the abdomen against the harness, they push the pelvis and shoulders against the harness. The abdomen actually gets pushed away from the harness as the child's shoulders come down towards the knees and hips.

The son of my mom's coworker had a perfect imprint of a belly high clip bruised into his stomach after a moderate crash. I had just done a check for her a couple of weeks before and there were no other misuses. (kid had a habit of pushing the clip down that they were working on) There was no internal organ damage, but the kid was in pain for several days.

jlginsb · Nov 4, 2010

What if (and this could be a big what if since so many parents and kids don't use chest clips properly) the chest clip is being used properly and at the level of the armpit? Is a chest clip still considered a hinderance to safety when used correctly? Can it cause chest bruising?

Baylor · Nov 4, 2010

I can not imagine a parent choosing only to buckle the top clip..

The one buckle and out theory makes a lot of sense.. wondered about this before.

nevaehsmommy · Nov 4, 2010

Baylor said:
I can not imagine a parent choosing only to buckle the top clip..

The one buckle and out theory makes a lot of sense.. wondered about this before.

I see it quite often. Makes me kinda cock my head and wonder? Like how hard is it really to do the two prongs on the bottom. I only see graco and evenflo seats so they do not even have the odd puzzle crotch clips

Baylor · Nov 4, 2010

nevaehsmommy said:
I see it quite often. Makes me kinda cock my head and wonder? Like how hard is it really to do the two prongs on the bottom. I only see graco and evenflo seats so they do not even have the odd puzzle crotch clips

That is amazing to me. That it would be a choice not to do it. I don't know what some people are thinking. I just don't.

I had one of those puzzle clips.. I can not remember what seat it was in though...

safeinthecar · Nov 4, 2010

jlginsb said:
What if (and this could be a big what if since so many parents and kids don't use chest clips properly) the chest clip is being used properly and at the level of the armpit? Is a chest clip still considered a hinderance to safety when used correctly? Can it cause chest bruising?

Of course it could cause bruising. Even seat belts and harness straps cause bruising. I'm not worried about the bruising itself, just worried that the soft tissue of the belly could end up with much worse then a bruise.

The European thought that chest clips are a hindrance to safety is purely from the standpoint emergency removal of the child in a hurry.AFAIK it has nothing to do with any injury the chest clip may cause.

Baylor · Nov 4, 2010

safeinthecar said:
Of course it could cause bruising. Even seat belts and harness straps cause bruising. I'm not worried about the bruising itself, just worried that the soft tissue of the belly could end up with much worse then a bruise.

The European thought that chest clips are a hindrance to safety is purely from the standpoint emergency removal of the child in a hurry.AFAIK it has nothing to do with any injury the chest clip may cause.

When my DD was about 3 she was in a 3 point harness. No clip. It did have a shield but it was only hip high or so. We were in an accident. hit hard broadside.
She was really bruised. Not injured more that that and soreness but she had bruises. I don't think there is any way to avoid them. Not if the seat is doing its job.

LISmama810 · Nov 4, 2010

Yes, like safeinthecar and Pixels said, the safety issue in Europe isn't based on performance in a crash, but on needing to get a child out quickly. I tend to believe there's probably some truth to that. *I* can get my kids out of a car quickly. Can someone who's not familiar with car seats do the same?

It's not something I lose sleep over--and I do use the chest clips on my kids' car seats--but it is something that nags at the back of my mind now and then.

And this is not the first time that Sunshine Kids has told people it's ok not to use the chest clip. Makes me wonder why they don't just market it without one.

jlginsb · Nov 4, 2010

Thanks for all of the knowledgeable responses. The funny part is the whole reason I contacted them was not about whether or not the chest clip should or could be used or not but more about the fact that their chest clips keep breaking leaving loose parts (prongs) and sharp edges. I've honestly been meaning to contact them for months but after seeing the Britax recall today I decided to get off my duff and actually contact them. I just wasn't really expecting the response I got from them.

The one buckle and out argument makes sense to me, I guess I just hadn't really thought of it much before today since all US seats are made with chest clips.

And, yes, I am still going to use the chest clips on the radians (when they aren't broken that is).

Thanks again!

lil.miss32 · Nov 4, 2010

Is it legal to market it without one??

rodentranger · Nov 4, 2010

Did you talk to Russ by chance?

Mae · Nov 4, 2010

I've been told that European countries do not have chest clips because their car seat usage is much better than the US/Canada's.

Over here, parents are less likely to properly tighten the harness, so US manufacturer's add the chest clip so that the harness is more likely to stay positioned on top of the child's shoulders, rather than hanging off their shoulders because the harness is too loose.

However, this opens a new can of worms. Many times, I've seen parents who buckle *only* the chest clip, which poses a big problem because the chest clip is designed to break upon impact. If the chest clip is the only thing buckled, and it breaks upon impact ... what exactly is holding that child? Nothing.

There's also the fact of more quickly undoing the buckle (with one hand) which has already been touched on by previous posters.

For what it's worth, Britax allows the use of the seats without the chest clip. A member here had called and asked. I also believe that a different member had broken her Radian's chest clip, contacted SKJP, and was told the same thing -- the Radian passes testing without the chest clip, and it was okay to use the seat without it. I admit, I don't know who told her that though.

featherhead · Nov 4, 2010

Mae said:
I've been told that European countries do not have chest clips because their car seat usage is much better than the US/Canada's.

Over here, parents are less likely to properly tighten the harness, so US manufacturer's add the chest clip so that the harness is more likely to stay positioned on top of the child's shoulders, rather than hanging off their shoulders because the harness is too loose.

However, this opens a new can of worms. Many times, I've seen parents who buckle *only* the chest clip, which poses a big problem because the chest clip is designed to break upon impact. If the chest clip is the only thing buckled, and it breaks upon impact ... what exactly is holding that child? Nothing.

There's also the fact of more quickly undoing the buckle (with one hand) which has already been touched on by previous posters.

For what it's worth, Britax allows the use of the seats without the chest clip. A member here had called and asked. I also believe that a different member had broken her Radian's chest clip, contacted SKJP, and was told the same thing -- the Radian passes testing without the chest clip, and it was okay to use the seat without it. I admit, I don't know who told her that though.

I would not believe that for a minute!! We have a large population of German immigrants in our community. I have not seen even 1 of them use a carseat correctly! Whether they were using their german seats here illegally, or whether they bought Canadian seats.

Jennifer mom to my 7 · Nov 4, 2010

Eh, Mae, I don't believe that. Europeans make the same mistakes we do. And they don't harness over 40, and are only just starting to rear face over 9kilos.

Their harnesses are also a bit closer together (like the radians, that could probably pass EU testing, but hasn't yet). The theory is that you only have to undo the crotch buckle in an emergency.

Then again, the ems personnel should have some sort of blade, to cut through belts, and take the child out of the vehicle in the restraint.

Mae · Nov 4, 2010

I'm just relaying what I was told. Don't shoot the messenger. :shrug-shoulders:

LISmama810 · Nov 4, 2010

Jennifer mom to my 7 said:
Then again, the ems personnel should have some sort of blade, to cut through belts, and take the child out of the vehicle in the restraint.

EMS personnel probably shouldn't be removing the kid at ALL. My nightmare is more like, car is on fire or submerged and I'm passed out or dead and a kindly by-stander tries to free my kid.

Mae · Nov 4, 2010

LISmama810 said:
EMS personnel probably shouldn't be removing the kid at ALL. My nightmare is more like, car is on fire or submerged and I'm passed out or dead and a kindly by-stander tries to free my kid.

:yeahthat:

EMS is actually taught to NOT remove the child. The child could have injuries, therefore they trauma pack the child *in* the car seat to limit their movement, and then transport the child to the hospital that way.

They are also taught to leave the child in the seat because if they have to trauma pack the child onto a backboard ... well, let's face it. That kiddo is going to kick and scream and throw a royal fit. So paramedics/EMTs leave the kid in the seat until at the hospital.

ETA: Ah, I see that you are saying they should have an instrument to cut through belts to take child out of the *car*, but still in the restraint. I see.

Jennifer mom to my 7 said:
Then again, the ems personnel should have some sort of blade, to cut through belts, and take the child out of the vehicle in the restraint.

-- Which, btw, yes. They are fully equipped to cut through things.

Well, my above point still stands and I will leave it there for future knowledge.

Question Chest Clips hinderance to safety?

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