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  1. #21
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post

    <snip>

    Some provincial laws will have to catch up with the new regulations - basically the provincial laws will be in conflict with themselves - all provinces require that a child be restrained in a seat according to manufacturer's instructions. As a larger and larger number of seats in circulation are only 22lb minimum, the 20lb number in law will basically be nothing but confusing for parents. Ultimately, a parent cannot go against the manufacturer's instructions legally. (and obviously never should go against them anyways.)

    <snip>
    To the bolded, does that make it technically illegal to use aftermarket products when it says not to in the manual? Also, can you point me to the Ontario law on this one?

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  3. #22
    Moderator - CPST Instructor QuassEE's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    It's not explicitly stated in most laws that when having to use a product, you also need to use it correctly. If you strap a seatbelt around your foot, you're using the seatbelt--but is this still legal? No, because you're not using the seatbelt per manufacturers' instructions. If you use a carseat contrary to manufacturers' instructions, are you using it correctly? No. Is this legal? No--it's the same as putting the seatbelt around your foot.

    -Nicole.

    Abbi (9, Ozzi/Olli), Aiden (11, Affix), Mason (16), & Kyle (18) in '02 Protege5 & '11 Ody TE.
    It's like free money...Couponsurfers.com

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  5. #23
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Beyond the legality & potential phase aspects, I was also going to ask what seat she's in and whether or not it could be that she's not comfortable? Maybe the seat pinches or pokes or the crotch strap hurts and that's why she's freaking out?

    I hope you can find a solution though, as you already know that its not legal nor as safe for you to turn her FF now.
    Good luck,
    Melissa

    ETA: you're not a horrible parent! The fact that you're asking about this and wanting to keep her RF and looking for solutions shows the exact opposite. Keep up the good work!
    Selina joined us Feb 19, 2010
    Calgary, AB, Canada

    Selina RF until 4 years, 1 month, 21 days old. FF in Radian until 6 years, 2 months (too tall). FF (harnessed) in Harmony Defender until 7 years, 2 months.

  6. #24
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    As pp's have asked, maybe it's the seat she doesn't like? DD complained in hers too until we replaced the seat. It had never even occurred to me that that was why she gave us such a hard time in the car. She had outgrown the height on her seat, so we had to replace it. When we did everything changed and she would actually fall asleep during car rides-something she had never done before.

  7. #25
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Wooohhhooo! I like this new law! Drives me crazy! Wish they'd just do 2Years Old. Period, they're all 22#s & walking! Can you imagine how great that would be!?

    Is there any other great new law? I read a bit about it elsewhere, but didn't see anything about this!

    And, if the law is 22#FF...And, you have a 2010, 20#FF seat, then is it legal, or not? Just curious?

    tam

  8. #26
    CPS Technician bbartlettnfld's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    I too am curious about what seat the OP's child is riding in, If its a Dorel brand or any of its other names, they have a stated 22lb Forward Facing Minimum, which the OP's child doesn't yet meet.

    BethAnn

    Canadian CPST, Mommy to ,
    E 12 5 Steps!
    N 7 Monteray, Prkway & Clek

  9. #27
    Carseat Crazy beeman's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    In regards to the laws, doesn't the Federal law trump Provincial everywhere? It doesn't make sense that you don't need to meet Federal requirements on Provincial roads and highways. Here in Sask., it's my understanding that all highways are Provincial, so the only Federal jurisdiction would be Canadian Forces, National parks and Indian Reservations.

  10. #28
    Moderator - CPST Instructor QuassEE's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Federal Supremacy is a very American concept. I believe local laws cannot take federal rights away, but can make federal requirements more strict? Is anyone a lawyer?

    -N.

    Quote Originally Posted by beeman View Post
    In regards to the laws, doesn't the Federal law trump Provincial everywhere?

    Abbi (9, Ozzi/Olli), Aiden (11, Affix), Mason (16), & Kyle (18) in '02 Protege5 & '11 Ody TE.
    It's like free money...Couponsurfers.com

  11. #29
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjham View Post
    Just curious, OP. What seat is she in?
    OP HERE:

    Britax Marathon and FTR the maual says 20lbs not 22lbs.
    She is happily RFing anyway

  12. #30
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    The jurisdictions make zero sense to me. Take the law in Alberta for animal cruelty: the federal max is 6 months & $1000, but the provincial max is 2 yrs & $10000 (I think). I followed a case for 2 yrs where the crime was commited in Alberta, yet the people were charged under the federal law. I have no idea how/why and it makes no sense to me! So for child restraints I'm not sure either.

    It seems that the most strict/restrictive law or the ones with the highest penalties would be the ones that would apply. Or the 'pecking' order should be municipal (if a bylaw exists) first, provincial if no municipal, federal if no provincial. But I don't think that's quite the way it works and it seems that most use the least restrictive law as the one that gets enforced because then there is for SURE a case, right? I dunno. Its confusing and annoying!!

    It'd be great if a lawyer or a police officer could chime in on this.

    Melissa
    Selina joined us Feb 19, 2010
    Calgary, AB, Canada

    Selina RF until 4 years, 1 month, 21 days old. FF in Radian until 6 years, 2 months (too tall). FF (harnessed) in Harmony Defender until 7 years, 2 months.

  13. #31
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by beeman View Post
    In regards to the laws, doesn't the Federal law trump Provincial everywhere? It doesn't make sense that you don't need to meet Federal requirements on Provincial roads and highways. Here in Sask., it's my understanding that all highways are Provincial, so the only Federal jurisdiction would be Canadian Forces, National parks and Indian Reservations.
    I already posted about this earlier, but I'll try again. I was confused about jurisdiction etc etc when this change was first made, but when the lightbulb finally went on that the federal law is about the SEAT itself, it all seemed perfectly clear to me. The federal law DOES trump whatever exists anywhere else because it dictates what manufacturers can allow in terms of use of the seat and you have to use the seat according to the manufacturer's instructions. Just because the law where you live says you can turn your 20 lb non-walking child forward-facing when they are a year old, you can't if your seat says they have to be 22 lbs and walking unassisted. So the federal law says nothing about what individuals have to do, it dictates to the manufacturers then we follow the instructions. Make sense?

    So if I do have it all straight (and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong), the new law only technically applies to using new seats that are delivered to Canada after Jan 1, 2011. BUT we tell people there is a new law that they have to follow NOW regardless of what seat they have because that has been the best practice minimum (not "best practice" overall - minimum) for awhile anyway and most people won't question the technicality of whether the new law actually applies to them and their seat.
    Last edited by sparkyd; 11-15-2010 at 09:23 AM. Reason: typo
    ~Tracey~
    Little Boy 1 - Graco Turbo Booster & Diono Monteray - 6 yrs, 50lbs, 48"
    Little Boy 2 - FF Radian XT - 4 yrs, 42 lbs, 45"

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  15. #32
    Moderator - CPST Instructor QuassEE's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyd View Post
    BUT we tell people there is a new law that they have to follow NOW regardless of what seat they have because that has been the best practice minimum (not "best practice" overall - minimum) for awhile anyway and most people won't question the technicality of whether the new law actually applies to them and their seat.

    Might I recommend telling parents the truth, rather than attempting to lie? If a parent is aware enough to catch you in a lie, your credibility with them is shot. It would only take an extra moment to explain that the new compliance requires a 22lb minimum that's not retroactive, but is still highly recommended to obey.

    -N.

    Abbi (9, Ozzi/Olli), Aiden (11, Affix), Mason (16), & Kyle (18) in '02 Protege5 & '11 Ody TE.
    It's like free money...Couponsurfers.com

  16. #33
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuassEE View Post
    Might I recommend telling parents the truth, rather than attempting to lie? If a parent is aware enough to catch you in a lie, your credibility with them is shot. It would only take an extra moment to explain that the new compliance requires a 22lb minimum that's not retroactive, but is still highly recommended to obey.

    -N.
    Agreed.
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  17. #34
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuassEE View Post
    Might I recommend telling parents the truth, rather than attempting to lie? If a parent is aware enough to catch you in a lie, your credibility with them is shot. It would only take an extra moment to explain that the new compliance requires a 22lb minimum that's not retroactive, but is still highly recommended to obey.

    -N.
    Did I say the word "lie" anywhere? Seriously? It's called giving a simple message and if anyone has questions about specifics, you give them the specifics. It's not a lie. Most people don't care about that level of detail, they just want to know what they should do.

    As I said in my post, I'm relaying my understanding here; I'm not even 100% certain that my interpretation of it only being about the seat is correct. My comment on what people are being told ("there is a new law; you must do X")is what I'm hearing all around me from techs and instructors and on this board. That is what people are saying. Everybody is talking about "the new law", but nobody gets the details because it hasn't been adequately explained by anyone that actually knows.
    ~Tracey~
    Little Boy 1 - Graco Turbo Booster & Diono Monteray - 6 yrs, 50lbs, 48"
    Little Boy 2 - FF Radian XT - 4 yrs, 42 lbs, 45"

  18. #35
    Moderator - CPST Instructor QuassEE's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Fortunately, because you understand that the new "law" is federal compliance and does not impact provincial law or previously manufactured seats, you are in a position to educate parents with fact and not convenient fiction.

    -Nicole.

    Abbi (9, Ozzi/Olli), Aiden (11, Affix), Mason (16), & Kyle (18) in '02 Protege5 & '11 Ody TE.
    It's like free money...Couponsurfers.com

  19. #36
    CPS Technician tiggercat's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuassEE View Post
    Might I recommend telling parents the truth, rather than attempting to lie? If a parent is aware enough to catch you in a lie, your credibility with them is shot. It would only take an extra moment to explain that the new compliance requires a 22lb minimum that's not retroactive, but is still highly recommended to obey.

    -N.
    I don't think that anyone is trying to lie here, and I definitely haven't overheard Sparkyd (can't recall if you use your name here, heh) trying to snow any parents at clinics. I usually discuss the new standards in a pretty simplified way, and wouldn't really get into the specifics unless asked. I think if you come out saying "your seat allows FF at 20lbs, but the new seats don't, but we recommend you follow the new rules even though you don't have to and it is really a confusing legal situation" that might be ambiguous and get away from our best practice spiel. Does that make any sense?
    Natalie, CRST-I, mum of Greg (15), Megan (10), Benjamin and Samuel (6).


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  21. #37
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: Am I a horrible parent?

    Thanks!

    I'm going with, kids now need to wait to be 22# etc for FF, just vague enough to be factual & correct at the same time...I get too many people asking when they are *legal* to FF. When told 1 & 20#s, that's all they need to hear, no more is ever asked. If it's now 1 & 22# & walking, great, I'll be no one will question that further...Those that have an older seat, or older kids that knew it was 1 & 20# might question, but with in a few years, most people forget what they were & those seats will be gone and I'll hope for 30#RF laws! LOL

    tam

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