Am I a horrible parent?

U

Unregistered

Guest
I need some advice. I have 2 children. One is 6 and the other is 20 months old. I wanted to keep my youngest RFing as long as possible but she is a peanut and wasn't quite there with weight anyway. I weighed her today and she is like 3oz away from 20lbs. Now I know the weight alone isn't what is recommended and most now say wait until they are 2 but she HATES being RFing. She sees her sibling turned and watching TV and she can't. She will push her legs straight out into the seat and scream. I worry if we are in an accident her little legs will snap. I turned her around today and took her around the block and she giggled the whole, it was so cute. I am just worried that I am doing the wrong thing.

Would you leave her and let her be happy or turn her around for a few more months and deal with the screaming?
 
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wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Her legs are safer rear facing than forward. They'll go toward her body, not snap. Her whole body is safer rear facing. Two is the new bare minimum, we prefer to see babies rear facing to three or four years old. And at not quite 20 pounds, rear facing at least until a decent meal is a must.

How about a mirror so she can see the TV as well? Or no TV in the car for anyone?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sssIsceKd6U"]YouTube - Rear facing vs forward facing position in the car[/ame]

I'd rather listen to the noise, or turn up the radio, than deal with an, "if only," down the line. Since she's not yet to the minimums of your seat, I would leave her rear facing and buy a mirror so she can see the TV.

Wendy
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Thanks. My main focus isn't on the tv, I mean she hasn't had one this far but when she has her legs locked up against the back of the seat and screams sometimes to the point she gags it gets pretty crazy. Even putting her in the seat when we are out is a challenge. She arches her back and kicks, shoot sometimes I feel like people think I am kidnapping her because she is so violently kicking and screaming.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Not to be a pain but since we are already on the topic it is something I always wonder about.

When they say it is better to be RF then FF it is based on a head on crash? Or are the tested from every angle? From the video it makes sense RF is safer but what if they are rearended then they are basically facing the "front" of the crash. That is something I never really understood. Maybe it is that more accidents are head on?

Thanks I just want to understand it :)
 

chay

New member
I agree with everything Wendy said.

Just wanted to add, if you're in Canada, Federal law is changing Jan 1, 2011 and 22lbs will be the new minimum to FF and you could be ticketed if you're on a federal highway (provincial laws vary but some already have it at 22lbs so you'd be ticketed there as well).

I personally would do anything possible to RF. Wendy had lots of good ideas. You might also want to check that her seat is as upright as possible - that made a big difference for my kids because they could see more.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I agree with everything Wendy said.

Just wanted to add, if you're in Canada, Federal law is changing Jan 1, 2011 and 22lbs will be the new minimum to FF and you could be ticketed if you're on a federal highway (provincial laws vary but some already have it at 22lbs so you'd be ticketed there as well).

I personally would do anything possible to RF. Wendy had lots of good ideas. You might also want to check that her seat is as upright as possible - that made a big difference for my kids because they could see more.


Do you have a link that shows federal law is changing or has changed? That make my choice even easier .... thanks :)
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Not to be a pain but since we are already on the topic it is something I always wonder about.

When they say it is better to be RF then FF it is based on a head on crash? Or are the tested from every angle? From the video it makes sense RF is safer but what if they are rearended then they are basically facing the "front" of the crash. That is something I never really understood. Maybe it is that more accidents are head on?

Thanks I just want to understand it :)

We play the odds. Rear-impact crashes are typically far less severe than front- or side-impact crashes.
 

Jonah Baby

New member
Ah, twoddler carseat battles.
Your little one has come to an age where she is learning to control her body more - walking/cruising, rolling, standing, MOVING in general on her own. It is very common for children at that stage to begin protesting any sort of restraint, not just carseats and the car. I assure you that for most children it is a stage (an often unpleasant one) but a stage that will pass if handled in a good manner. My oldest went through a stage doing exactly what you describe with the legs against the seat. At one point he began "bouncing" the carseat so much it had to be reinstalled.
You can...
Make sure her carseat is installed as upright as allowed for rear facing by the manufacturer.
Find car appropriate toys (these are preferably soft items, as everything becomes a projectile in a crash.)
Soft mirrors so she can see other passengers or the TV, as Wendy suggested. Soft mirrors are harder to find, but preferred so the mirror doesn't injure her or anyone else in a crash.
Is your older child within sight? I find my children prefer being able to see and interact during car rides. It doesn't always fix a fit, but it is better than screaming every time.
Put imaginary blinders on and remember "it's just a phase".

To the poster asking about why rear facing is safer -
On the road we need to prepare for the worst case scenario and protect our selves and children accordingly. We know after many years of research and data that side impact and head-on collisions are the deadliest, most severe types of crashes and occur more often at higher rates of speed. It is true that if a child is rear facing in a vehicle that is rear ended, the child will move toward the rear of the vehicle. But, rarely are rear end accidents deadly or compare anywhere close to the forces found in side impact and head-on collisions. By rear facing our children, just in case that deadly side-impact or head-on ever occurs, our children ride protected by the carseat shell, designed to absorb and deflect crash forces.

I hope that helps. I think you're a GOOD parent for asking for technical advice and not assuming bare minimums are good enough.
 

Jonah Baby

New member
Forgot one - kid's music.
Worked like a charm every time my oldest began to fuss. Throw in a CD of happy, highly annoying to us children's music and they quiet right down. I actually need to get some for baby, not sure where my preschoolers went...thanks for the reminder.
 

sparkyd

Active member
Rear-facing is safer in any type of collision. When you are in a head-on collision everything in the car moves forward towards the point of impact. When you are rear-ended you are either already moving forward or stopped and the impact will continue to push you and your car forward, not back.

As for the federal law, it actually applies to the car seats themselves and how they are allowed to be used so in effect it should be the same across the country, regardless of local laws. As of Jan 1, 2011 you will not be able to purchase a car seat in Canada that will allow a child to be forward-facing before they are 22 lbs AND walking unsassisted. Hopefully instructions will also include that children must also be one year old, but that isn't in the law. Since you must use a seat according to manufacturer's instructions, everyone across the country will have to follow that rule when using a new seat.

When speaking to people in person I always tell them that the law has changed (I actually say it has already changed, because really it has - manufacturers were just given until Jan 1 to comply) and I leave out the part about it being about the seat and let them think that the law applies to them, right now. I would come clean if pressed, but I never am. If the feds have seen fit to make this change, then people should realize that it is for the safety of their children and follow it even if they don't have to quite yet. Around here we all know that this is still a bare minimum - an improvement over the old bare minimum, but still a bare minimum. People should always be encouraged to do better than the bare minimum for the safety of their children.

Now if only more than 5% of my friends could be convinced of that! :rolleyes:
 

chay

New member
This is the part saying it is going to be mandatory Jan 1, 2011
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/releases-2010-h052e-5915.htm

The exact regulations are in the next 2 links (warning - highly technical). I was at a training a couple months ago that highlighted the changes and put them in easier to understand terms.
http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2009/2009-10-10/html/reg5-eng.html
http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2010/2010-05-12/html/sor-dors90-eng.html

I hate to link to Consumer Reports since they've had a history of recommending horrible seats but this is actually a good summary and much more readable than the above 2 links. It seems to highlight the biggies I remember from the presentation.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/ba...nt-child-car-seats-regulations-standards.html

Not sure if someone else has better links to point you to but that's a start. HTH
 

chay

New member
After reading sparkyd's post -

There was a bit of discussion at the training I was at about the provincial vs federal laws now that some of them are out of sync (lots of various levels of police were in attendance as well). I remember the presenter joking that Ontario law is still 20lbs so you'd be ok on a provincial highway with an older seat with a 20lbs minimum but then you would be charged on a federal road so it might just depend on who pulls you over and where. Nutty. Anyways, I think the hope is that Ontario (and others) will catch up soon and regardless many seats already state 22lbs (and all new ones will going forward) so proper use comes into play no matter which highway you're on.

My head was spinning (technical law is not my forte) so hopefully that represents what they were trying to get at.

people should realize that it is for the safety of their children and follow it even if they don't have to quite yet. Around here we all know that this is still a bare minimum - an improvement over the old bare minimum, but still a bare minimum. People should always be encouraged to do better than the bare minimum for the safety of their children.

Couldn't agree more!
 

jnamommy

New member
OP -
We went through the same thing with my dd. Around that age she hated her carseat. Screamed to go in it, cried, the whole works. She is over it and goes in without a problem now. And she has learned to watch the DVD player over her shoulder and seems perfectly content that way. (and the other night she even laid down backwards on the couch to watch Diego on TV and watched over her shoulder!)
 

selinajean

New member
Nick did the kicking/pushing thing around 17 months. He would push so hard that he would change the angle of the seat! :eek: I put the seat more upright and found lots of distractions for him. We eventually bought him a new car seat which he seems to like more.
We also bought ipix players for the boys and loaded his with Max & Ruby and Miss Spider shows. It is a hand held device that he can operate on his own. Something like that may keep her occupied on long trips.

I would work on keeping her happy rear-facing and not even think about forward-facing as an option right now, as it isn't. Maybe you can talk to your 6yo and see if he/she (sorry, I missed the gender :eek:) can help you with encouraging the younger one. Have the older child say things like, "Wow, you seat is so cool. It looks so comfy, I wish I could still ride like that!" Explain to the older child how little sis is so much safer rear-facing and that you need help in keeping her that way. You could also give the older sibling a special helper job of helping the younger one out by handing toys, books, etc if that is feasible (within reach in the back seat).
Praise from an older sibling can go a really long way, it is usually more effective than praise from us as the parents.
 

monstah

New member
When you are in a head-on collision everything in the car moves forward toward the point of impact. When you are rear-ended you are either already moving forward or stopped and the impact will continue to push you and your car forward, not back.

I just want to clarify.
Just like you said, when you are in a head on collision everything continues to move forward toward the point of impact. But if you are rear ended, no matter if you are stopped, driving forward or driving in reverse - the force is still toward the point of impact. Backward. Sure you and the car will still be pushed forward but the force against your body would be toward the back of the car.
Rear facing collisions are almost always less severe then frontals. Especially if the car that gets rear ended is already traveling forward. The car and the forward momentum will absorb crash forces. They are also far less common. (For most everyone who gets rear ended, the other guy just had a head on.;))
We need to protect against the statistically most common and most life threatening crashes. Frontals & side impacts. :thumbsup:

There is going to be a tiny percentage of crashes where a child would have been safer FF but that would be kind of like picking the horse with 100:1 odds. Rear facing is undeniably safer in the vast majority of collisions.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I agree with everything Wendy said.

Just wanted to add, if you're in Canada, Federal law is changing Jan 1, 2011 and 22lbs will be the new minimum to FF and you could be ticketed if you're on a federal highway (provincial laws vary but some already have it at 22lbs so you'd be ticketed there as well).

As for the federal law, it actually applies to the car seats themselves and how they are allowed to be used so in effect it should be the same across the country, regardless of local laws. As of Jan 1, 2011 you will not be able to purchase a car seat in Canada that will allow a child to be forward-facing before they are 22 lbs AND walking unsassisted. Hopefully instructions will also include that children must also be one year old, but that isn't in the law. Since you must use a seat according to manufacturer's instructions, everyone across the country will have to follow that rule when using a new seat.

When speaking to people in person I always tell them that the law has changed (I actually say it has already changed, because really it has - manufacturers were just given until Jan 1 to comply) and I leave out the part about it being about the seat and let them think that the law applies to them, right now. I would come clean if pressed, but I never am.

After reading sparkyd's post -

There was a bit of discussion at the training I was at about the provincial vs federal laws now that some of them are out of sync (lots of various levels of police were in attendance as well). I remember the presenter joking that Ontario law is still 20lbs so you'd be ok on a provincial highway with an older seat with a 20lbs minimum but then you would be charged on a federal road so it might just depend on who pulls you over and where. Nutty. Anyways, I think the hope is that Ontario (and others) will catch up soon and regardless many seats already state 22lbs (and all new ones will going forward) so proper use comes into play no matter which highway you're on.

My head was spinning (technical law is not my forte) so hopefully that represents what they were trying to get at.

Ok, here is how it all comes together...

Federal law - CMVSS 213

This law regulates what standards a child restraint has to meet before it can be imported for sale in Canada.

The changes that were made to the law were made to the CMVSS 213, 213.1, and 213.2. The ones specifically being discussed in this thread are only applicable to CMVSS 213, so I'm going to leave the other guys out. :thumbsup:

Manufacturers have until January 1, 2011 to comply - meaning that as of January 1st, 2011, any carseat being imported in to Canada for sale, must comply with the new standards.

Now - any seat which is already across the border and in a warehouse for sale prior to January 1, 2011 does NOT have to comply with the new standards, and all of these seats will remain in the market place for sale until they have sold out. What matters when it comes to car seats and standards is that they meet the standards they were required to meet at the time of manufacture. It's part of the reason for not using an expired carseat - standards change and old seats usually don't meet new standards.

As for the law enforcement part, all provinces are responsible for their own highway traffic act. Federal law requires that provinces regulate the use of child restraints for children under 40lbs or 6yrs old, but doesn't go beyond that.

Because provincial laws vary, this means some provinces have booster laws and some don't, some provinces have a minimum age and weight to ff and some don't - basically there are going to be differences between each province.

Highways and roadways within a province all fall under the jurisdiction of the highway traffic act for that particular province and with the exception of military bases/land - which may have it's own additional laws and enforcement, any road within a province has the same laws. There is no such thing as federal roads with federal laws and provincial roads with provincial laws.

Some provincial laws will have to catch up with the new regulations - basically the provincial laws will be in conflict with themselves - all provinces require that a child be restrained in a seat according to manufacturer's instructions. As a larger and larger number of seats in circulation are only 22lb minimum, the 20lb number in law will basically be nothing but confusing for parents. Ultimately, a parent cannot go against the manufacturer's instructions legally. (and obviously never should go against them anyways.)

I know there has been a lot of confusion with the implementation of the new legislation, but hopefully this clarifies things some. :thumbsup:
 

chay

New member
Thanks - that makes a lot more sense to me now.

I was a little puzzled by the federal vs provincial road thing but I'm in Ottawa so we already have RCMP (on NCC roads and around Parliament), OPP on the 417/416 and Ottawa Police on the rest so everything here is messed up to me anyways, whats one more confusing thing ;)
 

sparkyd

Active member
Thanks - that makes a lot more sense to me now.

I was a little puzzled by the federal vs provincial road thing but I'm in Ottawa so we already have RCMP (on NCC roads and around Parliament), OPP on the 417/416 and Ottawa Police on the rest so everything here is messed up to me anyways, whats one more confusing thing ;)

I figured you were in Ottawa from your earlier comments. ;) I'll have to figure out who you are... :p
 

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