Dog barriers and top tethering

This probably doesn't belong in coffee break, but I couldn't decide whether it was car safety or carseat related. Also, it was the unrestrained driver video that got me thinking about it.

So I'm pretty good about projectiles in the car, except for my two dogs, who occasionally ride in the cargo area of my Legacy wagon. I know that they are at some risk when they ride there, but have decided that it's worth it in order to give them some outings, which they love. But I have always figured that they were too big to really be projectiles in a crash--until I watched that video and saw that big guy fly over those front seats So this makes me think I need a dog barrier to protect my kids (yeah, I know it won't really help the dogs in a crash).

But when I look at the Subaru website, I see that the manufacturer's barrier says that it cannot be used with the top tether anchors, which are located in the roof of the cargo area. I don't currently have a FF tethered seat in my car, and likely won't for some time. But eventually I will, and now I don't know what to do. Is the problem that if the tether strap can't be routed through the right "square" in the barrier, it will compromise the functioning of the tether? Is this a problem with all dog barriers, or only the Subaru one?

Here's a link to the barrier, though the picture isn't great. It's partway down on the left:
http://www.subaru.com/shop/accessories.jsp?model=LEGACY&trim=25_GT_LIMITED_WAGON&category=INTERIOR

TIA.

How is this mounted? Will it really keep the dog from flying all over the place and into the front, if its pressure mounted I wouldnt think so....

Put your dogs in crates in the car instead and tie the crates down in the back - safest way to travel for the dogs and the crates won't become projectiles or interfere with a future FF tether. This is what I do.

There's another company, Tiffany will post it, but they have holes for tether ancors.

As far as the safest way for pets to travel, I'd tend to think it would be in an appropriate harness, buckled in. Crates can shatter. Tie downs may not support the dogs' weight, etc.

I think short of buckling them (which isn't an option for many) a cargo barrier and crates in combo is probably best. You have the barrier incase the crates fail, and if neither fail you have the crates to contain your pet incase a window breaks.

We actually used a harness with one of the dogs when we had just one dog and no kids, but found that it didn't work very well. She found it hard to maintain her balance on the seat. I also once saw a 20/20 or similar show in which they showed how badly dogs could be injured in harnesses and crates--more seriously than they would be loose. I gather that there are better harnesses on the market now, though. I should look into that for our van with the third row seat.

But that's not an option in my car, as there's no place to harness two seventy pound dogs in a small station wagon with a Marathon and a large booster seat. Crating is also not an option. The cargo area of my car is not big enough to hold two crates for dogs that size. Also, my rescued Lab has serious crate anxiety/ (He actually lost teeth trying to chew through a crate at his foster home. His doggy shrink told us not to crate him.)

They don't really go with us all that often, but they do like to go out for the occasional ice cream or walk in the woods. I assume the gate is mounted into permanent fixtures, but I should look into that. A pressure-mounted gate would definitely not be helpful.

Well, it sounds like it wold end up being a personal weighing risk with benefits situation (what isnt, eh lol) I dont know how a dog being loose in a crash could be more beneficial than being harnessed (for the dogs and definately for the passengers)...I honestly am not so sure what I would do. As them how much weight the carrier is designed to take...maybe that could give you a more clear cut answer

twokidstwodogs said:

But when I look at the Subaru website, I see that the manufacturer's barrier says that it cannot be used with the top tether anchors, which are located in the roof of the cargo area.

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i can only think of two reasons why the barrier would be incompatible with use of the tethers...

1st, as you mentioned, it might not have the routing capability for the tether.

2nd, the barrier may actually mount *to* the tether anchors, rendering them unavailable for use with a carseat. this is strictly an idea, i have no clue whether mfrs actually use the tether anchors for these sort of things... but i can see how that would be a very secure way of mounting a barrier, especially since the tether anchors in your car are in the roof (compared with pressure mounts or suction cup side window mounts).

twokidstwodogs said:

But that's not an option in my car, as there's no place to harness two seventy pound dogs in a small station wagon with a Marathon and a large booster seat. Crating is also not an option. The cargo area of my car is not big enough to hold two crates for dogs that size. Also, my rescued Lab has serious crate anxiety/ (He actually lost teeth trying to chew through a crate at his foster home. His doggy shrink told us not to crate him.)

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I'm a dog trainer and as far as the crate anxiety goes, if you really wanted to crate them you could probably work with him to get him over his fear. But that might be more time and energy than you really want to go to just to get the dog to ride in the crate in the car. I know there would be a way to crate them, though. My mom could put one big crate in the back of her V70 wagon and put two Giant Schnauzers in it (dogs the same size if not bigger than most labs).

Another (not ideal) option would be to tie the dogs in the back. Put a normal dog harness on them and tie their leashes to a tie down in the back. They would probably be injured in a crash, but they'd be less likely to become projectiles.

Personally, if crates aren't an option and the barrier is not pressure mounted (so safe in a crash) I'd probably just go that route and deal with the tether issue if and when it happens. Dogs pass on suddenly, you might get a different car, etc. If the tethers aren't going to be an issue in the very near future I'd just figure it out when it happens. But in my life it seems like whenever I plan more than a year in advance, things never pan out the way I expected them to.

I was taught that barriers are not crash tested and can come lose in a crash, becomeing another projective.

Have you checked out the harnesses made by IMMI (the makers of most child restraint straps and of the Safeguard)? They have a crashtest video as well:

http://www.immioutdoors.com/petbuckle/why_petbuckle.htm

The Pet buckle with the LATCH connector looks very promising. The one question I'd have is concerning the manufacturers of carseats & vehicles limit 2 lower anchors to a 40-48lb for a child after seat weight considerations. The combo doesn't move around anywhere near as much as our 4 legged friends do. Would they be thrilled to discover a dog of 80+lbs hooked to a single anchor? Would it hold? I wouldn't be surprised, but personally I'd have a lot of questions for the dog harness manufacturer AND the vehicle's maker before I trusted this in my car. If it snaps off, it's another projectile that's flying around loose.


While I also like the idea of the Dog harness that threads through the seatbelt, I just don't think it's that safe. I don't think most owners would 'lock' the seatbelts as tight as possible when the dog gets into the car. So even when the seatbelt locks in an accident, there's no guarantee that it's up against the back seat. Adding the length of the harness strap along a dogs body + a large dog's bulky frame, I still see possible smashing and bashing into fellow passengers causing harm to everyone.

My personal opinion is that there really is no way to keep a dog completely safe in a car, just secure enough to protect other passengers and ensure that when the doors open, the dog remains with the vehicle instead of dashing out into traffic. That's why if I had a back gate such as a wagon or SUV, I'd find some way to restrain the dog in case the door pops open.

anyway, just my :twocents: worth

Pressure mounted barriers are not safe -- they become projectiles themselves during a crash, some perhaps splintering & shattering.... Splintering & shattering is also possible with hard crates, but something is better than nothing I think, considering that a 30# animal would be almost 1 TON of force flying at your family in a 30mph crash I believe there are softer canvas type crates for smaller pets: these could be tied down with ratchet straps in the cargo area or placed down on the backseat floor. If you must use a hard crate then it must be tied down with ratcheting straps.

The ideal cargo barrier is made for the vehicle by the same manufacturer, installed by the dealership. However, if the manufacturer says you cannot tether your seats with this item, then optimal safety can be achieved with a pet restraint. The IMMI "pet buckle" is the easiest/safest option: made by the same company that manufacturs carseat harnesses/LATCH, bus & emergency child seats, etc. + you can use either LATCH or seatbelt! :thumbsup: (All vehicles made after 1996 have manual seatbelt locking mechanisms to keep the dog properly positioned or you could use a locking clip for older vehicles). This is also the cheapest option, although it will not keep your groceries from becoming projectiles My family has used it for at least 4 dogs & love it.

I've also used the Ruff Rider Roadie & trust it as well because their video showed the crash testing & they require a locking karbiner with specific weight minimum. Ford stopped making the cargo barrier for my Hybrid Escape & it didn't have cargo area anchors on the floor so I used the top tether anchors on the roof for my dogs. When the cargo area was full & I had 3 kids in my backseat, I put both dogs in the front seat: 1 on the seat using belt, the other on the floor hooked to a solid bar under the front seat. Another time I had just 1 dog in front on the floor with the other in the back seat behind front passenger with Leila riding behind the driver.

Just a tip: get the new water resistent travel fleece/nylon blanket (for picnicking, camping, etc.) approx. $15-25 to cover the seat under the animal & have chew toys ready I didn't have a camera phone then & still don't have a *real* digital camera or any camera besides my cell phone, LOL, but wish I had pix to post. I will try to add links when I get back home, though.

How do you think the PetBuckle Kwik-Connect Tether works? It states it's made to allow for greater movement, but wouldn't that mean less security? I definitely wouldn't put the dog in the backseat in one of those (she wouldn't have much room anyway) for fear she'd fly into the babies' seats. She normally rides in either the cargo space or the front seat, although I've been paranoid about taking her anywhere after thinking about the projectile danger her 55 pounds could become in the event of a crash. I take it passenger-side airbags haven't been tested with dogs? I am going to get one of the PetBuckle systems, so I can feel better about taking her places, but I don't know which one to get!

papooses said:

The ideal cargo barrier is made for the vehicle by the same manufacturer, installed by the dealership. However, if the manufacturer says you cannot tether your seats with this item, then optimal safety can be achieved with a pet restraint. The IMMI "pet buckle" is the easiest/safest option: made by the same company that manufacturs carseat harnesses/LATCH, bus & emergency child seats, etc. + you can use either LATCH or seatbelt!

I've also used the Ruff Rider Roadie & trust it as well because their video showed the crash testing & they require a locking karbiner with specific weight minimum. .

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The trouble with the IMMI harness is that I don't have a seat available, though I hadn't really thought about the front seat. The Marathon and Compass take up almost the entire middle row; neither dog would fit between the seats. I know that the cargo area is not an ideal place for a dog; I'm willing to live with that risk to some degree because I believe that they lead happier lives when they are allowed to accompany us on occasion. (Crates just won't fit--my cargo area is smaller than the V70 and not as boxy. I don't think I could get even one crate in the Legacy.) Right now, I'm mostly concerned with protecting my kids from my dogs as projectiles, which is why I thought the barrier would be good. But if the Ruff Rider Roadie can be used in a cargo area, I will have to look into that. I don't know if I have any suitable anchor points, but I will check. If so, that could be ideal. If not, maybe there's some way to tie them down like oxeye suggested.

(Morganthe, that's a good point about jumping into traffic. Mine are trained not to leave the car until given permission, but you never know if a passing squirrel would provide too much temptation.)

Thanks for all the advice.

Okay, I've checked out the Ruff Rider, and it might very well work. :thumbsup:

But how do I tell whether my cargo hooks can be used this way? Is that determined by the manufacturer? I'm not near my manual, but I don't remember reading anything about that in it.

Can you remove the plastic on the top tether anchors? If so then the Petbuckle could work & the locking climber's clip for Ruff Roadie should also.... Top tethering carseats is helpful, but not required for most seats: a barrier from the vehicle manufacturer is safer than other options -- unless the carseat manual says you must use the top tethers, then your carseats will protect your children without tethering so long as there's more than 32" between the front & rear seats.

papooses said:

Can you remove the plastic on the top tether anchors? If so then the Petbuckle could work & the locking climber's clip for Ruff Roadie should also.....

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Yes, I think so. Does it matter that the tether anchors are in the roof? Or that the anchors are rated to 60 lbs and my dogs both weigh between 65-70 lbs? I guess it's still better than nothing.

I will eventually need to top tether a Marathon, and possibly a Roundabout (not at the same time). I will have to measure the excursion distance to see if the seat would be safe untethered. That is a worry, because the Subaru's middle seat has very little legroom. (I have my older child's booster on the passenger side so that I can keep that seat far forward when I have no passenger and reduce the excursion dangers for her.) I do have three top tether locations, so conceivably I could tether both dogs and still tether DD 2's FF seat when she gets to that point. It would mean tethering the dogs close together, though, because I know I cannot get a good install on the Marathon in the center position, even if it fit next to the Compass, which it probably won't.

Great ideas--thanks Papoose and everyone else!

twokidstwodogs said:

(Morganthe, that's a good point about jumping into traffic. Mine are trained not to leave the car until given permission, but you never know if a passing squirrel would provide too much temptation.)

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I'm not thinking about regular times with dogs when they're calm & behaving. Mine are really well trained to stay in the car until invited out too.

It's after an accident I"m concerned about: Dogs are freaked out from the collision, possibly injured, and the owner could be completely incapacitated. When emergency crews or helpful strangers open up the vehicle to render assistance, a dog can easily escape or even attack the aid people in either protection or fear. Knowing that my dog for good or ill, will be still within my vehicle parameters in case of trouble is vital. I love my child more than my dogs, but they are still my pups. After all, they've been with me since 1993 & 1995

This is an interesting discussion about something I obsess and worry about all the time. I looked at the ruff rider and can someone who has used it tell me how hard it is for the dog to get out of it? Can it be tightened?

For that I like the Immi one, but it's got a neck piece, isn't that a choker?

The one thing I'm always paranoid about is a rear collison and having the truck or its contents collapse on the dog. Is there somewhere I can look up the actual crumple zones?

If nothing else, this has given me food for thought as far as tying stuff down - wagons aren't so great for family travel after all, huh?

twokidstwodogs said:

Does it matter that the tether anchors are in the roof? Or that the anchors are rated to 60 lbs and my dogs both weigh between 65-70 lbs? I guess it's still better than nothing.

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Quoting myself here and answering my own question. I forgot that the LATCH limits are for the child's weight and assume a seat weighing 20 lbs or so. So if my LATCH system is rated for a 60 lb child, which it is, there should be no difficulty about tethering a 65-70 lb dog to the anchor. Right?

Papooses, there are plastic covers over the top tether anchors, but they aren't spring loaded. I could just pull them off without interfering with the anchor function. They'd probably break, but as I will drive this car forever, I really don't care much about resale or how it looks.