Refusing to Turn 22 Pound 1yo

SafeandSecureBaby · Mar 22, 2007

Do to potential liability and the fact that it is simply not safe, have any other CPST's refused to turn a small one year old FF? I know that the parent may turn their child FF despite my refusal to help them do it. However, even though it is technically legal here in California to have a 22 pound one year old FF, I still won't help a parent potentially injure their child. This is especially the case when the parent has purchased a Britax and then wants to turn at 1 year and 20.

I was just wondering what other techs thought and or do when encountering this situation. I want to make sure their child is safe, but don't want to contribute to FF injury.

Splash · Mar 22, 2007

I'd turn them. If you gave the parent all the information and they still insist on turning the kid around, then the kid is gonna be turned around. So it's either you install it correctly and as safe as possible, or dad goes to it with some plywood and cargo ties and duct tape for good measure

My SIL turned my nephew before a year. Then she turned him back and acted like she was going to keep him that way. Then again, before a year, took him out of his convertible seat completely and put him in a consignment store shield booster. What were my choices there? I certainly couldn't let him ride around like that! So, I bought an OHS Evenflo (because I knew she hated doing the harness and that is why she put him in a booster) and installed it forward facing. As much as I knew he should be RF, I also knew that I could CORRECTLY install it FF, or I could correctly install it RF and have her stupid husband immediately turn it FF and do a horrible job. I went with the lesser of all evils. A week later, they were in a rollover crash and my 20 pound barely a year old forward facing in an OHS seat was perfectly fine (minus some "shield damage" from hitting the tray).

So, long story short... it's gonna happen anyway, might as well make the kid as safe as possible. And as long as the parent is the final installer, as per SK guidelines, any liability is lessened. Since it's legal where you are, you're not doing anything wrong.

joolsplus3 · Mar 22, 2007

SafeandSecureBaby said:
Do to potential liability and the fact that it is simply not safe, have any other CPST's refused to turn a small one year old FF? I know that the parent may turn their child FF despite my refusal to help them do it. However, even though it is technically legal here in California to have a 22 pound one year old FF, I still won't help a parent potentially injure their child. This is especially the case when the parent has purchased a Britax and then wants to turn at 1 year and 20.

I was just wondering what other techs thought and or do when encountering this situation. I want to make sure their child is safe, but don't want to contribute to FF injury.

Educate educate educate...then let the parent make the ultimate decision. The tech who worked at Lullaby Lane before I worked there had parents so well trained they'd come to me insisting their 2 year olds still be RF (at the youngest, they'd come when the kid was like 16 months and beg to turn them FF)...it was great!

Yeah, like Splash said, make sure they know how to do it right, and if they need top tether anchors, give them the part number to get them installed, and if that's what they want, there's nothing you can do, really (heck, in California, fat luck even keeping them RF to a year...no law, nothing in the Britax literature about it beyond the AAP recommendation...it's tough!)

southpawboston · Mar 22, 2007

Splash said:
So it's either you install it correctly and as safe as possible, or dad goes to it with some plywood and cargo ties and duct tape for good measure

or mom.

not all dads are the bad, unsafe part of the equation, splash.

Splash · Mar 22, 2007

southpawboston said:
or mom.

not all dads are the bad, unsafe part of the equation, splash.

I know that. But it's normally the dads who decide that a piece of plywood would do just the trick. I've yet to see a mom suggest plywood, yet the majority of men I know seem to have thought it at one point in time. I'm not sure what it is about 2x4s and carseats... even my FIL suggested it.

thepeach80 · Mar 22, 2007

I guess I see it as the same as when I have a 3yo come in in a booster.

It's not safe, but if they meet the requirements put forth by the manufacturer, there's not much I can do besides tell parents why it's not safe, how to make them safe, and leave it up to them. I had a 19# 1yo leave ffing at a check once b/c she was in a combo seat and mom wouldn't buy a new seat for her from us and we had already given them a booster for the unrestrained 4yo. She spent the whole time on the cell phone and had no idea what we were doing.

On a good note, I've had several parents choose to turn their children back rfing after talking w/ me.

SafeandSecureBaby · Mar 22, 2007

Thanks for all the input. I guess my problem still lies with potential liability. Even though it is legal to install the seat per the parents wishes, civil liability could still attach in California because I am the CPST and have advanced training which tells me the safer way to install. The argument from the parent in a lawsuit would be that I should have or did know better and despite that, acquiesed to the parent's wishes (which were not best practice) thereby allowing their child (if an injury accident occurred) to be injured.

I think the only way I could avoid potential liability is to show them how to install it both rear and forward facing, advise regarding all of the benefits of extended rear facing and potential for injury early FF (including death), and then insist that the parent install it FF (if they so choose) with my supervision. We also have the caregiver sign a waiver for each seat check that we do. Thanks again.

Victorious4 · Mar 22, 2007

I keep the AAP policy handy as give-aways (there's a link to it in my site).... If it's not illegal, then I cannot refuse, however before the minimum 12 months & 20 pounds I simply talk the parent through without touching the seat & have them sign a waiver that they made the decision although they understand why I urge them not to.

southpawboston · Mar 22, 2007

basically, all you can do is try to convince the parents of safest practice, but it would be inappropriate to refuse to instruct the parent of a practice as long as it meets all rules and regulations. being a vigilante about it and refusing the show the parent how to put the seat FF would be analagous (here i go with my analogies again!) to being pulled over by a cop and given verbal reprimands for using a cell phone while driving (in a state where there are no laws preventing cell phone use) (something i would personally love to see happen

)... it may be unsafe practice, but it meets all rules and regulations.

Yoshi · Mar 22, 2007

thepeach80 said:
I guess I see it as the same as when I have a 3yo come in in a booster. It's not safe, but if they meet the requirements put forth by the manufacturer, there's not much I can do besides tell parents why it's not safe, how to make them safe, and leave it up to them. I had a 19# 1yo leave ffing at a check once b/c she was in a combo seat and mom wouldn't buy a new seat for her from us and we had already given them a booster for the unrestrained 4yo. She spent the whole time on the cell phone and had no idea what we were doing. On a good note, I've had several parents choose to turn their children back rfing after talking w/ me.

(Underlining mine to highlight)

This part amazes me- the WHY do these types of parents even come to a seat check?

flipper68 · Mar 22, 2007

SafeandSecureBaby said:
Thanks for all the input. I guess my problem still lies with potential liability.

We also have the caregiver sign a waiver for each seat check that we do. Thanks again.

As a tech, I've been taught to document on the check up form that you recommended/demonstrated RF but parent request was for forward facing.

I do some education about what's the next step with any seat (How do your know when your child is too big to be RF/in an IO/in a harness?). I show/tell how the seat will be used differently FF than RF in a convertible seat (recline, weight/height, shoulder harness at or above, different belt path, switching the Britax LATCH - I was bummed to see they too have gone to bolting the LATCH to the CR). Eventually every child outgrows the current seat. . .

The story told at training was about a little guy in the old FP t-shield (B4 they expired/were recalled).

Child arrived FF. Techs knew the harness had to be in top slots for FF but child was too short for top slots. Techs installed seat RF at event. Parent later turned child FF but did not move harness. Crash/Child ejected because lower slots ripped (not reinforced)/Child fatality/Lawsuit. Safekids Check form showed techs had installed seat RF. . .end of liability. I also think we are protected by the 'Good Samaratian (sp?) Law' like first aid and CPR providers (non medical people).

snowbird25ca · Mar 23, 2007

flipper68 said:
The story told at training was about a little guy in the old FP t-shield (B4 they expired/were recalled).

Child arrived FF. Techs knew the harness had to be in top slots for FF but child was too short for top slots. Techs installed seat RF at event. Parent later turned child FF but did not move harness. Crash/Child ejected because lower slots ripped (not reinforced)/Child fatality/Lawsuit. Safekids Check form showed techs had installed seat RF. . .end of liability. I also think we are protected by the 'Good Samaratian (sp?) Law' like first aid and CPR providers (non medical people).

Gosh, what an awful story. That poor little kid.

I bet the parents must've had a hard time knowing they likely caused the seat failure.

I'm not a tech, so won't weigh in on the liability issue, but agree that it's better to have a seat installed properly if the parent is likely to undo your installation anyways to turn their kid the direction they want him to be.

AdventureMom · Mar 23, 2007

The fire chief who taught my CPST course said that he always says explains the benefits of RF vs FF. Then if the parent still wants the child FF, he says, "So you still want me to turn your child FF even though it's not the safest position?" If they say 'yes', then he does it but notates on the form and has them initial it... I feel like if you refuse to install it FF correctly, then they may go home and do it themselves which may or may not be a correct install. Our job is to educate and then install seats correctly (teaching the parents/caregives how to do so), within the confines of the law. If it is legal to turn them around, then we're bound to do that. What if you refuse to install it FF and they go home and do it themselves incorrectly, then have an accident and the child/seat is ejected which results in greater injury than if it were installed correctly?

Just some things to think about...

thepeach80 · Mar 23, 2007

yoshiandluke said:
(Underlining mine to highlight)

This part amazes me- the WHY do these types of parents even come to a seat check?

The pg mom that was w/ her was looking for someone to give her a free seat.

thepeach80 · Mar 23, 2007

Maria, I think that's part of my problem, is I'm afraid to be too hard on parents b/c I feel being nice makes them listen more, but I guess sometimes rougher is better (ie, are you sure you want to turn your child ffing even though rfing is safer). I rarely run into this, but it's good to think about ahead of time as we're coming into check season. DOCUMENT everything is the key w/ liability and the waiver they have to sign. Someone else on another board I think it was has mom/dad sign on the actual check sheet if they choose to go against best practice after they document the situation. Maybe that was Babs.

Refusing to Turn 22 Pound 1yo

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