Booster Fit?

finn

New member
How does this fit look? I'm thinking not good, too high on his thighs :( This is a Safe and Sound Hi-Liner with Slide Guard, or Britax Parkway Slide Guard. Our version has a tether on it which I thought was cool :)

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ds 3.7 months old, 37lbs, 41 inches

Just for reference he isn't going into a booster yet, he is still rear facing in all cars, he will be going into a booster on his 4th birthday unless he doesn't ride well in it in which case he will go back rear facing. I dont really want a debate on 5 point harnesses versus boosters unless someone can actually show me some evidence that one is safER than the other. Thanks
 
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bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
Ya, I agree with you, I don't like that lap fit. Do you have other boosters you could try? Something that would keep the belt down/forward on the thighs a bit more would be what I would look for. D you have something like our graco turbobooster there? it tends to give good fit on tinies.

As far as evidence, I know there is at least one study showing that kids under 5 are safer in harnesses than boosters, so it's possible someone might link to that. I don't think I know of anything else showing booster vs harness in that particular age group.
However, given his current size, it seems like he will not yet have outgrown the REARfacing capabilities of the sweet seats you have, and I think we do have fairly significant reason to believe that THAT would be the safer choice, of course.
 

Aurezalia

Well-known member
He's definitely too small for it still. It doesn't fit right on the shoulder or across the lap. FWIW, I agree with you on going from RF'ing to booster - but he's still got quite awhile to grow in the MT, why not keep him RF'ing for awhile past his fourth birthday?
 

Maedze

New member
It's not terrible but it's not great.

I do NOT recommend moving a brand new four year old to full time boostering. Regardless of whether boosters are as safe as a top tethered 5 point harness, no barely four year old boy will have the booster maturity to sit correctly 100% of the time in a booster. They're just not developmentally there yet.

Keep him in his rear facing seat at least for another year, with occasional booster 'training' rides once he turns four.

If he outgrows his rear facing seat and then does great in a booster, fine. If he's the least bit impulsive or wiggly, then you need to purchase a 5 point harness forward facing restraint.
 

finn

New member
It's not terrible but it's not great.

I do NOT recommend moving a brand new four year old to full time boostering. Regardless of whether boosters are as safe as a top tethered 5 point harness, no barely four year old boy will have the booster maturity to sit correctly 100% of the time in a booster. They're just not developmentally there yet.

Keep him in his rear facing seat at least for another year, with occasional booster 'training' rides once he turns four.

If he outgrows his rear facing seat and then does great in a booster, fine. If he's the least bit impulsive or wiggly, then you need to purchase a 5 point harness forward facing restraint.

Thanks :)

I cant keep him rear facing past four, he has been bugging me for months about turning forward so we promised him he could turn forward at 4 & of course you are right, if he is the least bit wiggly then I will harness him in his Radian ff, I would like a booster that fits well though so that I can start training him.

Ya, I agree with you, I don't like that lap fit. Do you have other boosters you could try? Something that would keep the belt down/forward on the thighs a bit more would be what I would look for. D you have something like our graco turbobooster there? it tends to give good fit on tinies.

I didn't like the fit either. I am going to try him out in a Maxi Cosi Rodi xr tomorrow, then hopefully next week the Grace Logico (Turbo), Recaro Monza (Pro booster) & Monterey should be in stock again so I will try him out in them.

I love that you call him tiny :) He is the size (height wise of a 4.5 year old) we call him our giant, he is on the top slots of his Multi-Tech & Radian and is about a hair away from having outgrown the Freeway.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Canada thinks you should harness as long as feasible... "Why? A children's car seat uses a 5-point harness system that is built into its shell. The harness straps are narrower than a car's seat belt and fit a child's small shoulders very well. In case of a sudden stop or crash, they will hold the child back and spread the forces of the crash over the two shoulders, the chest, part of the belly and the hips. This way, the child's body can come to a controlled stop with less chance of injury.

A booster seat, on the other hand, relies on the car's lap and shoulder belt to protect a child. Instead of a harness system, it has guides that help keep the car's seat belt on the child's hips and on one shoulder. Keeping the belt on the shoulder of a small child can be difficult, especially during a crash, because a child's shoulder is much smaller and more rounded than an adult's. And even if the booster seat does a great job of keeping the belt in place during a crash, it still may not hold back a child as safely as a children's car seat would."
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-programs-testing-harness-report-923.htm

And the number one cause of death in the US is no longer car crashes, for the age group up to 4, the typically harnessed population.

Seats perform very well for kids under 50 pounds, they have to meet very strict requirements, and US kids aren't walking (er, riding in wheelchairs) around with loads of broken necks, despite Sweden's insistence it's dangerous. When kids start pushing past the age and size of the 6 year old dummy, then standards aren't as strict on seats, that's when a booster is probably a wiser choice (given the current seats available, except the Radian, which is tested to much, much stricter standards and they are proud to show it).
:twocents:
 

finn

New member
US kids aren't walking (er, riding in wheelchairs) around with loads of broken necks, despite Sweden's insistence it's dangerous.
:twocents:

Neither are Swedish kids despite the US's insistence that boosters are unsafe :whistle:

Its all good though, thank you for that link, I will do some more reading :)
 

Maedze

New member
Neither are Swedish kids despite the US's insistence that boosters are unsafe :whistle:

Its all good though, thank you for that link, I will do some more reading :)

Um, the US does not insist that boosters are unsafe. However, experts insist that they are inappropriate for brand new four year olds ;)
 

Pixels

New member
I agree, I don't like that fit at all.

There is evidence that kids under 40 pounds are at increased risk of submarining.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
I agree, I don't like that fit at all.

There is evidence that kids under 40 pounds are at increased risk of submarining.

That's Canada's assertion, isn't it? I vaguely remember it, but can't remember the source. Not sure it applies to seats with anti submarine clips (?)

I think this page should open, it's the Swedish study from a few years ago where kids 2-4 in boosters mainly suffer head injuries, when they suffer injuries at all.. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf
 

Pixels

New member
The AAP, NHTSA, SafeRideNews, and CHOP all state that children should remain in their convertible seats until 40 pounds.

Conter-intuitive that it is, head injuries are actually common when a child submarines.
 

LuvMyGirls

New member
Not arguing, just pondering: Booster vs 5 point - isn't that the basis of the Kyle David Miller Foundation? Didn't his mother start the foundation to give harnessing seats to children because she believes her son would still be alive if he'd been harnessed instead of boostered? Granted, her reasoning being that his vehicle seatbelt failed and he was three.

As far as booster choices, our Monterey actually fits my 35lb 39" four year old well, but she's still harnessed in a Radian80 and just turned forward facing in it last week at 4yrs 2mths.
 

finn

New member
That's Canada's assertion, isn't it? I vaguely remember it, but can't remember the source. Not sure it applies to seats with anti submarine clips (?)

I think this page should open, it's the Swedish study from a few years ago where kids 2-4 in boosters mainly suffer head injuries, when they suffer injuries at all.. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf

Thanks for the link I will read it :) Having now read the link it says to me that you should never turn your kids ff before 4, and not put them in a booster before 4. It was very interesting though, thanks.

The AAP, NHTSA, SafeRideNews, and CHOP all state that children should remain in their convertible seats until 40 pounds.

Conter-intuitive that it is, head injuries are actually common when a child submarines.

I just weighed ds today he is 39 lbs :eek: Luckily I have the Radian as 99% of seats here only harness to 40lbs
 
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joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
The AAP, NHTSA, SafeRideNews, and CHOP all state that children should remain in their convertible seats until 40 pounds.

Conter-intuitive that it is, head injuries are actually common when a child submarines.

I was questioning where the proof of kids submarining under 40 pounds is. I don't have a link to that, do you?
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I was questioning where the proof of kids submarining under 40 pounds is. I don't have a link to that, do you?

Yeah, I'm also curious about this.

Primary risks from submarining are abdominal injuries and partial ejection. I can see how ejection or partial ejection could result in increased head injuries, but I would say those would most definitely be secondary to any injuries sustained to the soft tissues of the body. (Even though head injuries can create serious complications, you're more likely to bleed out from an injury to your liver than you are from a conk to the head.)

Now if you didn't submarine, I can see booster kids having the risk of head injury if the shoulder belt fit was less than ideal and their upper body wasn't restrained. However, this risk wouldn't be anymore than any other seatbelted occupant of the vehicle, and one could argue a high back booster increases the likelihood that the shoulder belt will be in the proper place and the child in position at the moment of collision.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Just getting a chance to reply to the rest of the thread now...

The Parkway fits my 6yr old 45lb dd the same way. The shoulder belt fit I have absolutely no issues with, but the lap belt fit I'm not 100% happy with. I break it down like this - if a parent came to see me with the seat already in use, I wouldn't recommend replacement. I don't consider it to be a bad fit. However, if a parent wanted to know if I'd recommend it to purchase, I would say no.

The Monterey fits my daughter beautifully - and contrary to the discussions that sometimes happen on the board here, for being tall and skinny she has no issues.

Truth be told, the Parkway SG has a lapbelt fit the same as the Nautilus in our car. I'd be inclined to use it as a booster before buying another seat if I wasn't going to get a better belt fit - but the Monterey is such a great fit on her, that I just can't settle for anything less than perfect and we'll probably end up with a monterey for her in the car as well.

So far as age debate goes, this is something that I would consider strongly - above and beyond maturity. I had read that children's iliac crests (sp?) on their hips don't really develop more until around age 5 or 6. Now that my daughter is older, I can feel the difference in her hip structure - I always give my kids "rides" before bed where I left them up above me using my feet on their hips to support them. My son who is 2 months shy of 4yrs old is harder to hold on - there is no natural place that his hip bones rest on my feet. My 6yr old on the other hand has a definite area that makes it very easy to support her by her hips. I actually commented to my dh about the profound difference and saying how I understood now why the iliac crests really are very important for a booster rider. I suspect they can be the difference between submarining and not submarining.

That's Canada's assertion, isn't it? I vaguely remember it, but can't remember the source. Not sure it applies to seats with anti submarine clips (?)

There weren't any seats with anti-submarine clips when the comments were made, and I know that while I haven't seen the data, I have had discussion with my instructor-trainer who works within TC, and she has talked about kids under 40lbs being at high risk of ejection, partial ejection, or submarining. (I think you may be able to find some comments directly from her in the CDN forum through searching her user id - allport ;) Of course, her comments are based on her own testing and experience - I don't know that it's based on any study, though only she could answer that one. Perhaps I'll email her.)
 

Jan06twinmom

New member
Here's an article that discusses maturity as an issue: http://carseatqueen.com/ff.aspx.

For my DS who is near the top of the charts in terms of height and weight, maturity has been a bigger issue in terms of considering the move to a booster seat. We're just looking at boosters now at 5.5 years since he is getting close to outgrowing the Radian.

Melanie
 

finn

New member
Here's an article that discusses maturity as an issue: http://carseatqueen.com/ff.aspx.

For my DS who is near the top of the charts in terms of height and weight, maturity has been a bigger issue in terms of considering the move to a booster seat. We're just looking at boosters now at 5.5 years since he is getting close to outgrowing the Radian.

Melanie

Thanks but to me that isn't really a study, or evidence, there are no links or references other than the one to the study (which was interesting, I would love it if they did it here as I have a feeling our kids are more mature than their counterparts, I also think ds spends a lot more time outside unsupervised engaged in imaginative play with his friends, than his counterparts).
 

Maedze

New member
Imaginative play really has nothing to do with impulse control development, which is related to brain maturity, which is related to age.


To the person who said her 35 pound child fit well in a Monterey and mentioned the KDMF:

Firstly, the KDMF got some stuff right, but they got a lot of stuff wrong. For example, their whole "Harnesses are always safer than boosters, regardless of age" was a gross misrepresentation of the facts. They also misunderstood WHY 5 point harnesses were a better option for younger kids.

Also, if you wouldn't mind sharing I would love to see a picture of your four year old in the Monterey.
 

gsdguenter

Well-known member
I have a feeling our kids are more mature than their counterparts, I also think ds spends a lot more time outside unsupervised engaged in imaginative play with his friends, than his counterparts).

I'm not sure that is an accurate statement. It seems like a blanket opinion, not based in any reasearch.
 

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