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  1. #21
    Senior Community Member Jennifer mom to my 7's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Meant to add that to my post. I want to see if I could somehow get the article with pics along with the translation in one spot, so that maybe I would post on my facebook.
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  3. #22
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Adventuredad has just written an article in English with the photo, perhaps that would work?

    http://www.carseat.se/a-swedish-rear...-another-life/

    DS 9YR FF in a high back booster seat(ERFing until he was 6YR), DD 4YR ERF in a Axkid Kidzofix.

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  5. #23
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    It's amazing anyone survived that crash. Wow! Scary! I clicked on the original first link and it had the picture.
    I would love to be able to rear-face the baby up front, make our 12 hour drive easier so I can hand over snacks and water and such.
    My car doesn't have an option to turn off the air bag so I know that it's not an option at all.

  6. #24
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    I was on a conferanse by the Norwegian traffic council this spring and one of Norway's best experts on car seat safety(and RF) addressed the subject of the safety in the backseat. Car manufactures have, for a long while, been consentrating on making the front of the car safest possible and they have to some extent neglected the safety of the backseat passengers.
    You get to attend all the fun stuff:-) Both VTI and then this.... This is a good point. Car seats are optimized for the front seat, this is where the main prioiruy is. Why? Because there is always someone in the front seat and many times never anyone in the rear seat.

    I wrote a few things about front seat use and what factors make it so safe. Article can be found here. Front seat use is very safe and this is also supported by research, stats, and real life use.

    where did you guys see the pictures of the accident? I was only able to read the article but there weren't andy pics.
    Found here,

    AD: Subscribers gets an email when it's posted right?
    Yes

    In the US, virtually no mechanic will take on the liability (yes, that's what it's considered) of deactivating an airbag. One must petition NHTSA to get authorization to deactivate the airbag, and as far as I know, it's extremely difficult to be approved.

    I don't know why things are so different here, but they are. It's important to note these differences, because lots of people will read this thread and simply see, "the front seat is just as safe/safer than the back seat!" and they'll just do it without looking into things further.
    Agreed, lived there half my life so no how things are. As you say it's important to say that front seat is very safe but also that airbag MUST be deactivated.

    I do think it is a bit of a myth that everyone over here has a button or a key to turn off the airbag with, here in Norway the car park isn't especially new.

    There are many cars here in Norway(like my own) as well where one has to get the airbag deactiveted(or completly removed) by an authorised mechanic.
    True. Not all cars have an airbag which can be turned off

    I think this is the most important thing to emphasize: for forward-facing passengers, the front seat is less safe.
    Not correct although most believe so. The front seat is an excellent place for a child as long as airbag is deactivated. This apply to both rear facing and forward facing children. We mostly discuss rear facing and front seat on the different boards but safety is also just as great in front seat for a forward facing child. Again, airbag MUST be deactivated.

    This is supported by research, stats and real life use. Safety of front seat is not debated among those who work with car seat research etc. I'm sure US stats show the rear seat being safer which is hardly surprising. Since airbags can't be turned off (except in some trucks etc.) kids should not sit in front seat. Those children who sit there, with an active airbag, are not safe and stats will show this.

    Not only do we know front seat is extremely safe, it's also shown by car manufacturers and research institutions. Many cars over here have tether loops on floor in front seat to encourage front seat use. We also have many cars which have Isofix connectors in front seat which can be used for rear facing or forward facing children.

    Quoted from the world leader in safety (especially for kids), Volvo, and found on their web site (section for forward facing car seats)

    "Which seat in the car is safest?"

    In a Volvo all seats are equally safe for children as long as correct type of car seat is used. The only exception is when the front passenger seat has an airbag which has not been deactivated or turned off.

    Children who are shorter than 140 cm (55 inches) should not sit in a front passenger seat with an active airbag."
    Use of car seats in the front seat is one of the most misunderstood issues in car seat safety. Few parents internationally know it's very safe and instead believe front seat is a death trap. Just another car seat myth:-)
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  7. #25
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    AD:

    I got an email from your site yesterday so I figured that out LOL.

    Thanks for clearing that up So if we had the airbag deactivated once our son has grown out of his RFing car seat would it be safer for DS if one of us adults sat in the back and he sat in the front passenger seat? I'm thinking since our bodies is harder and should withstand a little more force then the child?

    DS 9YR FF in a high back booster seat(ERFing until he was 6YR), DD 4YR ERF in a Axkid Kidzofix.

  8. #26
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    I would say front seat is about as safe for a forward facing child in front seat. Rear facing kids in front seat has some advantages which can not be found for FF children in front seat.

    - More leg space in front seat is a great reason to use front seat for a RF child but not really relevant for a FF child. Many parents keep kids RF for more than a year longer thanks to using front seat since they incorrectly believe bent legs are uncomfortable/dangerous.

    - The social factor is more important for a smaller child. Having an infant or young toddler up front works very well since they are more attached to mommy/daddy. This is not so relevant for an older FF child up front.

    Can't say it enough time, airbag must be deactivated to use the front seat:-)
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  9. #27
    Admin - Webmaster Admin's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Adventuredad View Post
    True. Not all cars have an airbag which can be turned off



    Not correct although most believe so. The front seat is an excellent place for a child as long as airbag is deactivated. This apply to both rear facing and forward facing children. We mostly discuss rear facing and front seat on the different boards but safety is also just as great in front seat for a forward facing child. Again, airbag MUST be deactivated.

    This is supported by research, stats and real life use. Safety of front seat is not debated among those who work with car seat research etc. I'm sure US stats show the rear seat being safer which is hardly surprising. Since airbags can't be turned off (except in some trucks etc.) kids should not sit in front seat. Those children who sit there, with an active airbag, are not safe and stats will show this.

    Not only do we know front seat is extremely safe, it's also shown by car manufacturers and research institutions. Many cars over here have tether loops on floor in front seat to encourage front seat use. We also have many cars which have Isofix connectors in front seat which can be used for rear facing or forward facing children.

    Quoted from the world leader in safety (especially for kids), Volvo, and found on their web site (section for forward facing car seats)



    Use of car seats in the front seat is one of the most misunderstood issues in car seat safety. Few parents internationally know it's very safe and instead believe front seat is a death trap. Just another car seat myth:-)
    The US stats, the ones you have been given in the past, also show the front seat to be less safe, even without a frontal airbag. The proximity to the point of impact and hard interior features like the dash and A-pillar are also issues.

    It's not that the front seat is unsafe when the airbag is disabled, the rear seat is simply safer. Rear-facing seats do mitigate some of these issues by keeping the shell between the child and the dash/pillar if no airbag is present, but of course they are deadly if an active airbag is present. Though newer advanced airbags inflate with less force than earlier designs when a child is detected, there is also the issue they may be fooled and assume an adult is in the seat (for example if a child pushes on the dash with their legs and the sensor believes a heavier occupant is there).

    Please stop propagating this false information as it could be very dangerous for a child.
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  10. #28
    Admin - Webmaster Admin's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Adventuredad View Post
    I would say front seat is about as safe for a forward facing child in front seat.
    The back seat is safer for kids, even without an active front seat airbag. I would say about 29 percent safer, even higher if an active airbag is present. About 40% safer overall for all kids 15 and under.

    In summary, all children 12 years old and under are safest when properly restrained in the back seat of the vehicle. Children are up to 29 percent safer riding in the back seat versus the front seat, whether the vehicle has an air bag or not. (bold and emphasis theirs)
    http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/outreach...qp/airbag.html



    Remember it’s safer in the back seat compared with the front, even without passenger airbags, so the back seat is always preferred
    The safest place for kids to ride is in back. This was true before airbags, and now it’s doubly true. Infants and children riding in back seats cannot be in the paths of inflating airbags.
    http://www.iihs.org/brochures/pdf/kids_airbags.pdf



    Safe Kids USA’s policy is that all passengers—but especially children under age 13—should ride in a back seat with properly fitted restraints appropriate for their weight and height.
    Kids riding in the front seat can be injured by:
    • Hitting the dashboard or windshield
    • Being hit in the head or chest or both by an adult-sized airbag
    • Being closer to the point of impact in frontal collisions (which make up more than half of all car crashes)

    Among the concurring organizations are:
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    http://www.aap.org/
    U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    http://www.cdc.gov/
    Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia
    www.chop.edu/carseat
    National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
    http://www.safekids.org/assets/docs/...front-seat.pdf
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  11. #29
    Admin - CPST Instructor Kecia's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Just adding a few comments to support Darren's post and links. There are some very specific, very valid reasons why the front seat is a less-than-ideal place for any CR (rear-facing or forward-facing) here in North America.

    Vehicle frontal crash worthiness and survival space. Here in the US, any vehicle old enough to NOT have come from the factory with a passenger side airbag (pre-1996?) is likely to have poor or marginal crash worthiness (frontal, side, roof-crush strength, etc). Everyone knows that "survival space" is essential to crash survival. It probably won't matter what seat your child is riding in, or what direction that seat is facing, if there is a total collapse of the occupant compartment and massive intrusion. Since the majority of *severe* crashes are frontal and side impacts - any occupant (child or adult) seated in the rear, and ideally in the center rear (if that can be accomplished safely) in an older vehicle is more likely to survive a crash than anyone sitting up front.

    Front passenger seats in newer vehicles were not designed with carseat installations in mind. Seatbelt pre-tensioners are wonderful features and they likely have no negative effects on carseats when they activate in a crash. However, load-limiters are a totally different story. Load-limiters spool out webbing (and they can spool out a LOT of webbing - like close to 12") during the crash. This allows the adult-sized front seat occupants who are wearing their 3-pt seatbelts more time to come to a complete stop in a controlled manner as they move into the cushion of the deployed airbag. Pre-tensioners, load-limiters and airbags are all designed to work together. Turn off the airbag and you remove a critcal componant of that partnership. Install a CR in that front seat using the seatbelt and what do you think is going to happen? If the AB doesn't deploy because it has been deactivated by a switch/key or a sensor - will that deactivate the load-limiter too? Probably not. So, think about it - what's going to happen to that tightly installed CR in the front seat when the load limiter decides to spool out a bunch of webbing during the crash?

    Now, if you live in Sweden and you drive a nice new vehicle with great crash worthiness and you have an AB on/off switch and ISOFIX/LATCH attachments in the front seat (so you don't even need to worry about what the seatbelt will or won't do in a crash) then putting your RF child up front probably isn't a bad idea and maybe even has some benefits.

    Ditto for a nice new standard cab pick-up truck here in the USA. One with excellent crash protection, AB on/off switch and LATCH in the front seat. Granted, standard cab pick-up trucks aren't ideal family vehicles for lots of other reasons.

    However, putting a carseat up front in any other type of situation here in North America is just NOT a good idea. And truthfully, that 1 year old who survived that horrific crash in Sweden was really, really, really lucky. No doubt she owes her life to that rear-facing CR but I'm not convinced that rf in the front seat contributed to her survival.
    Last edited by Kecia; 07-31-2010 at 03:50 PM.


  12. #30
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    I think it is or else many more Swedish children would have died in frontals, this is not a new recommendation in Sweden as far as I know.

    DS 9YR FF in a high back booster seat(ERFing until he was 6YR), DD 4YR ERF in a Axkid Kidzofix.

  13. #31
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Thanks Kecia-

    We have a lot older vehicles on the road here in the USA, including a lot of stiff framed pickups and truck-based SUVs that comprise about half of our fleet here, but are very uncommon in most European countries. Many vehicles on our roads still have first generation full-force airbags and lack on/off switches for the airbag.

    There are certainly situations in North America where a child can be correctly restrained in the front seat and be quite safe, perhaps almost as safe as the rear seat. The case of using a rear-facing child seat in front when no active airbag is present is one of these situations. Even so, the rear seat is almost always safer and should always be the first choice unless there is some reason the child seat cannot be correctly installed there.

    One thing about the USA is that we have a large population that drive a lot of miles. That means a lot of crashes and a lot of statistics. The recommendation to keep kids in back is based on these studies and that is why it is endorsed by virtually all major traffic safety organizations, both government and independent. The statistics may change from country to country. Some countries have newer and smaller vehicle fleets. They may have strict DUI laws. They may have higher levels of restraint use and parent education. Perhaps frontal crashes are less common than they are in the USA, too.

    The laws of physics do not change, though. In any crash, you want to be as far away from the point of impact as possible. As Kecia said, that gives more crush space and more room to avoid intrusion. That means the rear seat, where you are also farther away from the dash, the windshield, the A-pillar and active airbags (if any).

    Consistency of message is also important. Yes, if you disable your airbags and move the front seat all the way back, it can be safe to put a correctly installed and used child restraint in front. The problem is that when the message gets out there, at least in the USA, the part about the airbags is often forgotten and kids die. People pick and choose the information they absorb and that is an extememely important point that can be overlooked if a parent has another motivation to keep their child in front or if they have a vehicle that does not allow it.

  14. #32
    Admin - CPST Instructor murphydog77's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post
    Thanks Kecia-

    We have a lot older vehicles on the road here in the USA, including a lot of stiff framed pickups and truck-based SUVs that comprise about half of our fleet here, but are very uncommon in most European countries. Many vehicles on our roads still have first generation full-force airbags and lack on/off switches for the airbag.

    There are certainly situations in North America where a child can be correctly restrained in the front seat and be quite safe, perhaps almost as safe as the rear seat. The case of using a rear-facing child seat in front when no active airbag is present is one of these situations. Even so, the rear seat is almost always safer and should always be the first choice unless there is some reason the child seat cannot be correctly installed there.

    One thing about the USA is that we have a large population that drive a lot of miles. That means a lot of crashes and a lot of statistics. The recommendation to keep kids in back is based on these studies and that is why it is endorsed by virtually all major traffic safety organizations, both government and independent. The statistics may change from country to country. Some countries have newer and smaller vehicle fleets. They may have strict DUI laws. They may have higher levels of restraint use and parent education. Perhaps frontal crashes are less common than they are in the USA, too.

    The laws of physics do not change, though. In any crash, you want to be as far away from the point of impact as possible. As Kecia said, that gives more crush space and more room to avoid intrusion. That means the rear seat, where you are also farther away from the dash, the windshield, the A-pillar and active airbags (if any).

    Consistency of message is also important. Yes, if you disable your airbags and move the front seat all the way back, it can be safe to put a correctly installed and used child restraint in front. The problem is that when the message gets out there, at least in the USA, the part about the airbags is often forgotten and kids die. People pick and choose the information they absorb and that is an extememely important point that can be overlooked if a parent has another motivation to keep their child in front or if they have a vehicle that does not allow it.
    And we would be negligent in our duties as safety professionals if we didn't transmit this information to parents and caregivers. We can't ignore the studies that over the years have given us the statistics that say the back seat is 30-38+% safer for *all* occupants.

    Overall, for children less than 16 years, riding in the back seat is associated with a 40% reduction in the risk of serious injury.10 To learn more about effective interventions to increase child safety seat use, visit CDC's Motor Vehicle Occupant Safety page.
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm#motor vehicle prevented

    In the back seat, children are more likely to hit the back of the front seat.

    "That's not great, but it's better than hitting jagged metal that's coming in from the front," says Kristy Arbogast, a biomechanical engineer at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia who investigates crashes involving children.
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ags-usat_x.htm

    The second-row has a 43.4% lower fatality risk than the front seat (0.30% v 0.53%) and the third-row is 58.5% lower (0.22% v 0.53%) for 0-to 7-year-old children.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18570145

    We also have to remember that if the car was traveling at 55 mph, those children are damn lucky to have survived period. That's a type of crash that's typically not survivable so there are many factors that come into play, not just the fact that it's a rf carseat in the front seat. It's possible that the front passenger seat was the only position unscathed in the crash. It's easy to play armchair crash scene investigator, but we have to play the statistics when it comes to our children because those statistics are the hard facts that our scientists have been studying. CPS isn't a game of guessing, it's using the numbers that we know work and are safe.


  15. #33
    Senior Community Member 3acorns4Christy's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    I will say this is a wealth of information. Thanks for all the study links.

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  16. #34
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Please stop propagating this false information as it could be very dangerous for a child.
    I would appreciate not writing with this tone since my statements are based on facts and real life. "False information" is quite an accusation since everything said is based on research and real life use going back many many years.

    I have the privilege of working closely with the elite in car seat safety. This is a small group of people who know a lot more than me or anyone else. The safety of front seat safety is never debated and the many funny and incorrect forum discussions are always met with a laugh and a smile since everyone know they are not true.

    Cars in US don't have airbags which can be turned off, at lest in most cars, and therefore have little information to base findings on. Certainly not any experiences from real life use. Don't forget that car seat safety is 30 years behind in US which is of course a problem.

    Many people for example still believe harnessed seats are safer than high back booster seats for older kids. This is laughable to people who know about car seat safety and so are the opinions of front seat not being safe. It's just not debated except on forums.

    Rear facing children are likely safer in front seat and we know this by research and real life experience. We have also known this for a long time and clearly shown it withy real life use.

    Posting links by organizations with different opinions does nothing to support this issue since a majority of these don't have the knowledge required. Neither by research or real life use.

    And we would be negligent in our duties as safety professionals if we didn't transmit this information to parents and caregivers. We can't ignore the studies that over the years have given us the statistics that say the back seat is 30-38+% safer for *all* occupants.
    The above statement is for example a great example. Anyone working seriously with car seats laugh at this statement since it's totally incorrect and research and real experiences have shown it for a very long time. It's just not true.

    Most vehicles in US can't deactivate airbags which make it a good idea to say rear seat is safer for everyone in US. This doesn't change the fact that the front seat is an excellent place for a child or adult and just as safe as the rear seat as long as airbag is deactivated. Rear facing seats in front seats are safer when looking at all the factors.

    Contrary to US, Sweden has not only research to rely on but also real life use. There is no real life use in US since airbags can't be turned off (except in a low percentage of cars/trucks). If front seat is so horribly unsafe it would be a complete disaster in sweden since a very high percentage is using the front seat for their children.

    This is almost like arguing with someone about rear facing vs. forward facing. Some will never believe RF is safer than FF despite all the evidence. Whatever is offered is met by some opinion which is based on different criteria or biased opinions. Many people don't believe front seat is a great place for a child whatever research or real life use experiences are offered. Some also believe earth is flat and will never waiver from this opinion.

    We also have to remember that if the car was traveling at 55 mph, those children are damn lucky to have survived period.
    Agreed. It's normally very difficult to survive any accident at this speed. We also have so much more experience with rF than any other country and have seen these caes quite often. It'w quite amazing what kind of impact RF can handle.

    The back seat is safer for kids, even without an active front seat airbag. I would say about 29 percent safer, even higher if an active airbag is present. About 40% safer overall for all kids 15 and under.
    Just because you say so doesn't make it true. Your opinions are not supported by research and real life experiences. My comment was on the other hand fully supported by research and real life use.

    Consistency of message is also important. Yes, if you disable your airbags and move the front seat all the way back, it can be safe to put a correctly installed and used child restraint in front. The problem is that when the message gets out there, at least in the USA, the part about the airbags is often forgotten and kids die. People pick and choose the information they absorb and that is an extememely important point that can be overlooked if a parent has another motivation to keep their child in front or if they have a vehicle that does not allow it.
    Good point. Like mentioned before, US parents are poorly informed and it's likely a good idea to tell everyone back seat is always safer. This doesn't change the fact that a child is just as safe in the front seat as the rear if airbag is deactivated.

    The laws of physics do not change, though. In any crash, you want to be as far away from the point of impact as possible. As Kecia said, that gives more crush space and more room to avoid intrusion. That means the rear seat, where you are also farther away from the dash, the windshield, the A-pillar and active airbags (if any).
    There are so many other factors involved in a crash. Front seat of a car is optimized for safety, rear seat isn't. Crash pulse is far better in front seat, protection from dashboard is extremely good, etc. It's enough factors involved to write a book about it, crush space is one factor but there are also many others.

    The Swedes have worked tirelessly with car seat research since 1960. We rear face most of our kids to age 4 or older and have an unbelievable safety record to show. It would be counterproductive to work so hard with car seat safety and also use front seat for kids if it was so unsafe. We do the things which are safest for our kids and that's why we have a safety record which is so phenomenal. That includes using front seat extensively with a deactivated airbag.

    Lengthy and time consuming discussion, some will simply never accept the facts regarding car seat safety. Signing out of this discussion but can be reached via PM or email of anyone want to discuss it further.
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  18. #35
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Adventuredad View Post
    I would appreciate not writing with this tone since my statements are based on facts and real life. "False information" is quite an accusation since everything said is based on research and real life use going back many many years.

    I have the privilege of working closely with the elite in car seat safety. This is a small group of people who know a lot more than me or anyone else. The safety of front seat safety is never debated and the many funny and incorrect forum discussions are always met with a laugh and a smile since everyone know they are not true.
    In that case, what you are proposing is that parents who come across this public thread are to take your word and the word of unnamed mystery "elite" over that of the numerous references and supporting published studies and links listed above. At least as far as the USA is concerned, it is indeed false that the front seat is safer or even as safe as the rear seat, based on the evidence currently available here and on the laws of physics that are constant everywhere.

    Even one child placed unnecessarily in the front seat here is a child put in greater danger, however small or large, than if the parent had followed the recommendations of the NHTSA, IIHS, AAP, CHOP, Safe Kids USA and various other organizations.

    I would suggest that your claim should be addressed directly to the above named organizations if you have proven, peer reviewed studies and statistics proving anything contrary to their research and advice. If you can gain their support to your claim, I am certainly very willing to retract the comment that this claim is false. In fact, if your elite experts are seriously interested in saving the lives of children and sincerely believe the front seat is safer for children in North America in general, they should be working quickly toward this goal, rather than laughing and smiling.

  19. #36
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    I think the first posts should be safe for anyone to read now, I've edited a little so not to go against the recommendations in the US(that was never my intention either but nevertheless I think this is an interesting debate to follow).

    DS 9YR FF in a high back booster seat(ERFing until he was 6YR), DD 4YR ERF in a Axkid Kidzofix.

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  21. #37
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Adventuredad View Post
    Cars in US don't have airbags which can be turned off, at lest in most cars, and therefore have little information to base findings on. Certainly not any experiences from real life use. Don't forget that car seat safety is 30 years behind in US which is of course a problem
    Incorrect. In addition to recent statistics from vehicles with no active airbags, we have decades of statistics in North America before frontal airbags.

    Many people for example still believe harnessed seats are safer than high back booster seats for older kids. This is laughable to people who know about car seat safety and so are the opinions of front seat not being safe. It's just not debated except on forums.
    It's debated precisely because it is not always safer. A child who is likely to be out of position in a booster seat because they squirm or put the shoulder belt behind an arm or back is likely to be much safer in a 5-point harness.

    Posting links by organizations with different opinions does nothing to support this issue since a majority of these don't have the knowledge required. Neither by research or real life use.
    Also incorrect. Major organizations like the NHTSA, IIHS and CHOP not only compile the statistics but publish numerous papers and studies on the topic. They also reference global studies from universities and other research institutions, including those in Sweden.


    Most vehicles in US can't deactivate airbags which make it a good idea to say rear seat is safer for everyone in US. This doesn't change the fact that the front seat is an excellent place for a child or adult and just as safe as the rear seat as long as airbag is deactivated. Rear facing seats in front seats are safer when looking at all the factors.
    I conditionally agree on this point, and said as much before. Of course, this is provided that the seatbelts don't have force limiters, as Kecia discussed in her post. Many vehicles here made in the last decade do have force limiters. As we lack LATCH in front seats in North America, this is a real issue that effectively could leave a carseat with a loose installation.

    Contrary to US, Sweden has not only research to rely on but also real life use. There is no real life use in US since airbags can't be turned off (except in a low percentage of cars/trucks). If front seat is so horribly unsafe it would be a complete disaster in sweden since a very high percentage is using the front seat for their children.
    As I said, we also had decades of real statistics and research before airbags in addition to research since then. No one has claimed that the front seat is "horribly unsafe", except perhaps for rear-facing seats when an active frontal airbag is present. We just agree with the experts in North America that the rear seat is safer for the vast majority of children here, based upon the very important reasons listed previously in this thread. Sweden has other factors that make it quite different from North America, as discussed previously.

    This is almost like arguing with someone about rear facing vs. forward facing. Some will never believe RF is safer than FF despite all the evidence. Whatever is offered is met by some opinion which is based on different criteria or biased opinions. Many people don't believe front seat is a great place for a child whatever research or real life use experiences are offered. Some also believe earth is flat and will never waiver from this opinion.
    The very big difference is that experts in North America agree about rear facing. They do not agree that the front seat is safer than the rear seat. In fact, they have real world statistics to the contrary.


    There are so many other factors involved in a crash. Front seat of a car is optimized for safety, rear seat isn't. Crash pulse is far better in front seat, protection from dashboard is extremely good, etc. It's enough factors involved to write a book about it, crush space is one factor but there are also many others.
    At least in North America, the front seat is optimized for safety for adults, not for children. While front seat safety has improved considerably in the last decade, even just the lack of LATCH in the front passenger seat is a big issue. Also, we have different carseats and standards in North America that could also be an important variable.

  22. #38
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Thanks! The problem is that there are a lot of variables from one country to another. Things with a proven history of being safe in one place may not be as safe in another due to driver habits, parent education, vehicle design, carseat design and other factors. Sweden and other countries have a great reputation for keeping kids safe, but that doesn't mean that all the methods used there can be adopted elsewhere with identical results.

  23. #39
    Admin - CPST Instructor murphydog77's Avatar
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Adventuredad View Post
    I would appreciate not writing with this tone since my statements are based on facts and real life. "False information" is quite an accusation since everything said is based on research and real life use going back many many years.

    I have the privilege of working closely with the elite in car seat safety. This is a small group of people who know a lot more than me or anyone else. The safety of front seat safety is never debated and the many funny and incorrect forum discussions are always met with a laugh and a smile since everyone know they are not true.

    Cars in US don't have airbags which can be turned off, at lest in most cars, and therefore have little information to base findings on. Certainly not any experiences from real life use. Don't forget that car seat safety is 30 years behind in US which is of course a problem.
    This is where I'm truly puzzled why you keep coming back to these forums and giving the information that you have. Your information clearly doesn't pertain to us--our vehicles are so subpar to yours and we can't get airbag off switches, so the information you share with our readers IS dangerous. Perhaps it's better for a more private, technical forum, but not in public. We've asked you time and again for proof--links, studies, anything--and I don't believe you've given us anything. Perhaps one where we've had to have an online translator site translate it for us (those are always interesting reads ). That's just a nature of the beast for being in a different country, though. Here in the US, though, we have lots of studies readily available for perusal. Some you have to pay for, but the abstract is always available online somewhere. The data is relatively easy to find. And we don't laugh or chuckle at perceived incorrect notions--we try to educate. That's just rude. Get off your high horse.

    Many people for example still believe harnessed seats are safer than high back booster seats for older kids. This is laughable to people who know about car seat safety and so are the opinions of front seat not being safe. It's just not debated except on forums.
    Show us the data.

    And we would be negligent in our duties as safety professionals if we didn't transmit this information to parents and caregivers. We can't ignore the studies that over the years have given us the statistics that say the back seat is 30-38+% safer for *all* occupants.
    The above statement is for example a great example. Anyone working seriously with car seats laugh at this statement since it's totally incorrect and research and real experiences have shown it for a very long time. It's just not true.
    Show us the data. In US vehicles, it *is* safer. You can't compare apples (Swedish vehicles) to oranges (US vehicles).

    Most vehicles in US can't deactivate airbags which make it a good idea to say rear seat is safer for everyone in US. This doesn't change the fact that the front seat is an excellent place for a child or adult and just as safe as the rear seat as long as airbag is deactivated. Rear facing seats in front seats are safer when looking at all the factors.

    Contrary to US, Sweden has not only research to rely on but also real life use. There is no real life use in US since airbags can't be turned off (except in a low percentage of cars/trucks). If front seat is so horribly unsafe it would be a complete disaster in sweden since a very high percentage is using the front seat for their children.
    I thought you understood it there in the 1st sentence, but then you lost it. Right, the only vehicles in the US that can deactivate airbags are trucks and even some of those can't. The normal family vehicle can't deactivate its airbag. THE FRONT SEAT IS NOT SAFE FOR A CARSEAT. DO NOT ADVOCATE ITS USE IN THE US.

    Just because you say so doesn't make it true. Your opinions are not supported by research and real life experiences. My comment was on the other hand fully supported by research and real life use.
    I'm turning blue in the face asking for it: show us the data.

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  25. #40
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    Re: 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

    Quote Originally Posted by Kecia View Post
    However, putting a carseat up front in any other type of situation here in North America is just NOT a good idea. And truthfully, that 1 year old who survived that horrific crash in Sweden was really, really, really lucky. No doubt she owes her life to that rear-facing CR but I'm not convinced that rf in the front seat contributed to her survival.
    Sweden has the highest rate of ERF seat usage, and their fatality rate as well as serious injury rate for the 0-6 years age group is the lowest you´ll find, despite the fact that many of them are placed on the passenger front seat. This articles DOES say a thing or two about front seat safety for children. Furthermore, the Swedes carry out in-depth investigations of serious crashes, and have done so for many years. So with the rates they have for this age group they must be doing something right other than placing their LOs in ERF seats.

    In Sweden, children this age group survive VERY serious crashes involving trains, trucks and large busses with only minor injuries, despite being seated in the front seat. In this case it was a high speed frontal impact with a tourist bus.

    The good outcome of these large accidents don´t derive from pure luck. Just look at what´s left of the seating position that little girl was in!!!!!! there is barely anything left of it!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Lena
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