News 1 YR old survived frontal on road w/speedlimit 55 mph

lenats31

New member
[quoteTHE FRONT SEAT IS NOT SAFE FOR A CARSEAT. DO NOT ADVOCATE ITS USE IN THE US.][/quote]

So what if you forget about the airbag, and focus on the front seat only. I mean, try to think about the front seat without any airbags....

personally I know that airbags can´t be turned off in the USA, and that they can in Europe, which ofcause makes a world of difference. But if you could deactivate your airbags, and what if there were no airbags????


Don´t get me wrong, I am in NO WAY encouraging the use of front seats for children in US Vehicles for the simple reason that airbags cannot be deactivated.

Lena
 
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SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Sweden has the highest rate of ERF seat usage, and their fatality rate as well as serious injury rate for the 0-6 years age group is the lowest you´ll find, despite the fact that many of them are placed on the passenger front seat. This articles DOES say a thing or two about front seat safety for children. Furthermore, the Swedes carry out in-depth investigations of serious crashes, and have done so for many years. So with the rates they have for this age group they must be doing something right other than placing their LOs in ERF seats.

Clearly they do a lot right, perhaps more than anywhere else in the world. From ERF to a much newer and smaller vehicle fleet. Just starting with the passenger car fleet compared to the USA, less mass and less stiffness in passenger cars averaged over a fleet means less energy to start in a crash and it is more easily absorbed by the crushing frame. I also understand that that the education level in regard to child seat use is better and that the laws on impaired driving are much more strict and on a national level? Keep in mind that in the USA, most fatalities involve unrestrained kids and/or at least one driver who is impaired. Just by eliminating those two factors, you reduce our fatality rate significantly (That's why most of our education and research dollars are spent there and not on issues like ERF). Now throw in a safer vehicle fleet and proper use and you get another nice improvement. Add in extended rear-facing for icing on the cake! Then, finally, don't compare on an asbolute scale or per capita scale, compare on a per million vehicle miles travelled basis.

No one doubts extended rear facing is safer. The question is, how much safer? How many lives would it save for kids 24-48 months old if you isolate it from all the other variables that making driving in Sweden different from the USA. I suspect the answer is very few, as we touched upon in this thread http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=1198667 . There it is even shown that in the USA, overall fatalities actually decrease from 0-12 months to 13-24 months on a national level even though most kids are turned forward facing (that isn't likely to be a causal relationship, of course). Some would argue that even one more fatality is too many and that may be so. Of course, at that low a risk level, you'd also never want your kid in contact with any other kid or any remote potential for a hazard of any type!

So what if you forget about the airbag, and focus on the front seat only. I mean, try to think about the front seat without any airbags....

personally I know that airbags can´t be turned off in the USA, and that they can in Europe, which ofcause makes a world of difference. But if you could deactivate your airbags, and what if there were no airbags????


Don´t get me wrong, I am in NO WAY encouraging the use of front seats for children in US Vehicles for the simple reason that airbags cannot be deactivated.

Lena

The front seat is still closer to the point of impact in frontal crashes, the most common type in the USA. That means less chassis to absorb energy and protect from intrusion. That also means closer proximity to the dash, the windshield and the A-pilliar that are very dangerous in terms of head injury. A rear-facing seat mitigates a lot of that potential risk (if no airbag is active of course), but we still have studies and statistics [referenced above] that show the rear seat is safer even if no airbag is present/active. As Kecia mentioned, we also have the potential for issues with force limiters present on seatbelts, since we have no ISOFIX available in front.

Perhaps that will change as our cars get safer and our education level improves about keeping kids properly restrained and not driving distracted/impaired. Even today, roughly half the vehicles sold and on the road here are still truck-based pickups and SUVs, many weighing 4000-5000 lbs. or more. While certainly safer than those from a decade or two ago, the fact remains that a lot of those older trucks are still on the road today as our vehicle fleet isn't as modern or as small as many in Europe.
 

lenats31

New member
Front seat isofix is just starting to emerge in Europe. Perhaps our vechile fleet is younger than in the USA, but there are still a massive amount of old cars on the roads here.

The chassis on new cars has been made a lot stiffer over the years in order to better protect the adults there. Stiffer chassis can result in greater loads on children regardless of where they are seated in the car. the backs of RF seats will absorb the majority of those loads.

Anyway, I think that the risk of FF children being placed too closely to the dashboard is another issue with FF in front seats (mind you that if you allow RF seats on the front seat, you´ll allow FF seats too there). I see that ALL too often (everyday). Ideally these children (usually in boosters) should be placed as far back as possible. But they are not.

SO there are issues related to placing children FF in the front seat. But this is largely misuse.

By the way Darren, we imported the Britax Regent some years ago, when our Autistic DD grew out of her FF 20-40 lbs restraint (FF). She would not sit properly in a booster, and it was impossible to explain it to her back then. Then Mathias came into the world, and the search for an ERF seat started. We found out that we could have had DD in a 5 point harness legally, on our visit to Sweden to get Mathias and ERF seat (Multitech):). DD is 6 years old now and rides safely in her highback booster most of the time. Ofcause there are some "short bad times", but they come further and further apart. Today they are rare.

Lena:)
 

lenats31

New member
Speaking of showing proof:

Most of what I have seen in writing about front seat usage for small children is in Swedish - not really much use here:).

many experts in this field prefer anonymity. As an Exsample, I can mention that I have to mention someone else in the business that the person I want contact with knows in person. otherwise it is a no go.

it´s late, so my ability to think is impaired HA, HA. It just crossed my mind that, another reason for placing RF children on the front seat is less risk of being distracted by a constantly crying baby in the back.

Yet another point, that FF in the rear seat has been found to be LESS safe than RF in the front seat in Europe.

The front seat allows RF for longer time as it increases legroom for the child and there by comfort,3


Also with regard to the larger RF seats, the dashboard is stronger than the front seat back, so will hold the RF seat better in a frontal collision. æ
æ
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Front seat isofix is just starting to emerge in Europe. Perhaps our vechile fleet is younger than in the USA, but there are still a massive amount of old cars on the roads here.

I have never been to Sweden, but I have been to various other European urban areas and in general, there is no where even close to the prevalence of vehicles older than 15 years, pickups and truck based SUVs or very large 18+ wheel semi-trailer delivery trucks. Perhaps the Nordic regions vary, but at least where I've been in continental western Europe, England, Ireland, Greece and Israel, it has been fairly consistent.

The chassis on new cars has been made a lot stiffer over the years in order to better protect the adults there. Stiffer chassis can result in greater loads on children regardless of where they are seated in the car. the backs of RF seats will absorb the majority of those loads.

My point had more to do with the prevalence of ladder-frame truck based vehicles in the USA. Unibody designs on cars, car-based SUVs and minivans have stiffened to meet offset impact crash tests, but are still not nearly as rigid as truck-based vehicles in general.

Anyway, I think that the risk of FF children being placed too closely to the dashboard is another issue with FF in front seats (mind you that if you allow RF seats on the front seat, you´ll allow FF seats too there). I see that ALL too often (everyday). Ideally these children (usually in boosters) should be placed as far back as possible. But they are not.

SO there are issues related to placing children FF in the front seat. But this is largely misuse.

By the way Darren, we imported the Britax Regent some years ago, when our Autistic DD grew out of her FF 20-40 lbs restraint (FF). She would not sit properly in a booster, and it was impossible to explain it to her back then. Then Mathias came into the world, and the search for an ERF seat started. We found out that we could have had DD in a 5 point harness legally, on our visit to Sweden to get Mathias and ERF seat (Multitech):). DD is 6 years old now and rides safely in her highback booster most of the time. Ofcause there are some "short bad times", but they come further and further apart. Today they are rare.

Lena:)

Certainly, there are many cases where it is acceptable to put kids in the front seat. In the case of a rear-facing infant seat, it can be quite safe if the frontal airbag is disabled. I think the point being made is that based on research and statistics in the USA, we recommend that it be the last option as it is considered to be safer for kids 12 and under to be in back. Obviously, we'd all be happy if we had many of the exact same vehicles and child seats certified for sale here as are available in Sweden and elsewhere.

it´s late, so my ability to think is impaired HA, HA. It just crossed my mind that, another reason for placing RF children on the front seat is less risk of being distracted by a constantly crying baby in the back.

That is quite possible, but one could also contend that it is *more* distracting to have the baby within clear sight and easy reach, causing the driver to pay less attention to the road. Or perhaps it is close to a wash and that's why the statistics here are what they are.

Yet another point, that FF in the rear seat has been found to be LESS safe than RF in the front seat in Europe.

The front seat allows RF for longer time as it increases legroom for the child and there by comfort

I definitely agree with this, if there is no issue with an active airbag, of course. The studies in the USA are strictly based on front vs. rear seat in general.

For specific situations, studies don't ever really offer much value. For example, I suspect the advantages of rear facing are significantly diminished when you assume that the child is in a correctly installed and used front-facing seat in a newer vehicle with modern safety features. Most statistics only consider averages, including much older vehicles and restraints and kids who are improperly restrained. Rear facing seats tend to have some advantages in regard to tolerance of misuse that certainly helps for the typical parent, but perhaps not as much for a typical forum reader;-)


Also with regard to the larger RF seats, the dashboard is stronger than the front seat back, so will hold the RF seat better in a frontal collision. æ
æ

As I said, a rear facing seat mitigates most of the issues with intrusion and striking a hard portion of the interior. Even so, in a very severe impact, the front seat occupant space is much more likely to be compromised than the rear seat. A violent strike agaist the dash is probably just the first hazard, whereas a strike against a softer vehicle seat back may be the only hazard for a child seat in back.

This is great discussion, by the way, especially given the lack of relevant data to make direct comparison from country to country. Plenty of kids ride safely in the front seat of cars in the USA every day. It's just that all the available data and research we have here shows that they would be even safer in back.
 

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