TC Crash Test Videos Revisited

StillThankful

New member
As we all know that TC crashed the MA 18 times. Of those 18 times, four showed the MA harness breaking through the shell. This keeps bothering me so I reviewed the TC videos and info again (especially b/c Britax has not commented on these results--I keep thinking that it can't be as catastrophic as I think b/c Britax would definitely have done a recall or at least made a comment on it).

I noticed that out of the four tests showing the MA harness breaking through the shell, they were either (1) latch + tether or (2) latch + lap & torso + tether. None of the MA seats that were secured by lap & torso + tether had incidents where the harnesses broke through the shell.

Is it safe to say that If I decided to have my DD1 (or DD2 in a couple of years) FF in a 2010 MA (old style) or 2010 RA50 with lap & torso + tether that it would be safe? BTW, I have a 95 honda odyssey and 94 honda accord.

I know that answers will depend on physics, angles and other variables like car type, etc ...

It's been 8 months since I found about these TC videos and nothing has been said about them from Britax. I just feel that it can't be as grave as it seems.:confused: If it is grave, I would have to be led to believe that a company that I have trusted with my children's safety is totally ignoring a safety hazard and being an ostrich by hiding its head in the sand~ I think their PR person would have made a statement of some sort or they could have decreased the weight limit while FF until investigations have been concluded. I just can't believe that Britax would keep very dangerous seats on the market that are still being used and marketed but rectify the situation by designing a whole new line of seats.



I'm really not trying to get into a good guy versus bad guy discussion or villain versus victim. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this thing~it's just weird.


Nissan Murano 2003 49.9 3 Hybrid III 6 year old Lap & Torso Tether
Nissan Murano 2003 49.9 3 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Dodge Durango 2005 47.7 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Dodge Durango 2005 47.7 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Lap & Torso No Tether
Dodge Durango 2005 56.3 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Dodge Durango 2005 56.3 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Lap & Torso Tether
Audi A3 2006 47.4 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Ford Fusion 2006 47.8 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Dodge Caravan 2006 56.2 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Honda Civic 2006 56.4 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch + Lap & Torso Tether
Honda Civic 2006 56.4 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Hyundai Entourage 2007 47.8 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch + Lap & Torso Tether
Hyundai Entourage 2007 47.8 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Pontiac Wave 2007 40.0 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Lap & Torso Tether
Pontiac Wave 2007 40.0 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Dodge Caliber 2007 55.9 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch + Lap & Torso Tether
Dodge Caliber 2007 55.9 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
Hyundai Genesis 2009 47.6 1 Hybrid III 6 year old Latch Tether
 
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mimieliza

New member
Here's what I took away from the crash tests that make them seem less scary to me:

-- These were VERY severe crashes - it is uncommon for crashes to be so severe, and no matter what, at those speeds there is a high likelihood of injury for all vehicle occupants.

-- Despite the harness ripping from the shell, the forces on the dummy were within acceptable limits. It seems counterintuitive, but in a severe crash, the straps can rip from the shell, and the seat can still serve its purpose of protecting the child from crash forces.

-- Tests were designed to test seat performance in a variety of scenarios, including misuse (such as using LATCH and seat belt). It's not surprising that the seat would perform badly under such misuse.

-- Results don't seem to be appearing in real world crashes - the Marathon is widely used and has been around a long time; if it was failing catastropically and injuring children in crashes they otherwise would have survived, we probably would have heard something about it (examples: Touriva notches of death; Evenflo infant seats detaching from base, etc.)

-- TC did not recall seats or issue warnings based on these results
 

stayinhomewithmy6

Senior Community Member
I am still not to a point where I can let it go. Since the TC crash tests, I haven't used a Britax convertible forward facing. I have no problem using them rear facing. I completely see where mimieliza is coming from and understand those to be valid points, but for me, personally, I just can't do it.
 

StillThankful

New member
Here's what I took away from the crash tests that make them seem less scary to me:

-- These were VERY severe crashes - it is uncommon for crashes to be so severe, and no matter what, at those speeds there is a high likelihood of injury for all vehicle occupants.

-- Despite the harness ripping from the shell, the forces on the dummy were within acceptable limits. It seems counterintuitive, but in a severe crash, the straps can rip from the shell, and the seat can still serve its purpose of protecting the child from crash forces.

-- Tests were designed to test seat performance in a variety of scenarios, including misuse (such as using LATCH and seat belt). It's not surprising that the seat would perform badly under such misuse.

-- Results don't seem to be appearing in real world crashes - the Marathon is widely used and has been around a long time; if it was failing catastropically and injuring children in crashes they otherwise would have survived, we probably would have heard something about it (examples: Touriva notches of death; Evenflo infant seats detaching from base, etc.)

-- TC did not recall seats or issue warnings based on these results

Thanks. Your comments make perfect sense.

With people so litigious these days, I just don't think Britax would allow dangerous seats to remain in the market knowing that they could be sued for negligence (duty, breach, causation, damages scenario) or whatever.

I am a fan of Britax and was shocked at the videos but time heals all; and when the time comes, I'll FF my kids in the RA 50 and MA seats with the lap & torso + tether.
 

Evolily

New member
I'm not a Britax fan, and think the videos and NHTSA results are prime examples that price doesn't equate to safety, but at the same time if I had a marathon I'd have no problem using it, especially under 40 lbs FFing, but even over I'd be comfortable. Really, ANY child in a properly used and installed child restraint is a ton safer than many, if not most, of the kids on todays roads.
 

StillThankful

New member
I am still not to a point where I can let it go. Since the TC crash tests, I haven't used a Britax convertible forward facing. I have no problem using them rear facing. I completely see where mimieliza is coming from and understand those to be valid points, but for me, personally, I just can't do it.

I know what you mean. I still envision the alarming videos in my mind too:( However, recently I had peace come over me with the tc videos. I just can't see Britax letting the seats stay on the market with no comment or reaction. I guess I was just wondering if the lap & torso + tether would make a difference.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I don't think a response or lack thereof by Britax has any bearing on the safety of their seats.

There are plenty of companies (car seat and otherwise) who sell products they know to be defective because they hope they can get away with it and figure their pockets are deep enough to fight whatever lawsuits come their way.

I'm NOT suggesting Britax seats actually are defective nor that the company is engaging in shady activities. I have no idea. But I do think it's naive to assume that any company is truly looking out for anyone but itself.

Also, a test of 18 seats is not enough to draw a scientific conclusion that LATCH/lap-shoulder+tether=failure and lap-shoulder+tether=success.

I agree with pretty much everything mimieliza said.
 

StillThankful

New member
I don't think a response or lack thereof by Britax has any bearing on the safety of their seats.

There are plenty of companies (car seat and otherwise) who sell products they know to be defective because they hope they can get away with it and figure their pockets are deep enough to fight whatever lawsuits come their way.

I'm NOT suggesting Britax seats actually are defective nor that the company is engaging in shady activities. I have no idea. But I do think it's naive to assume that any company is truly looking out for anyone but itself.

Also, a test of 18 seats is not enough to draw a scientific conclusion that LATCH/lap-shoulder+tether=failure and lap-shoulder+tether=success.

I agree with pretty much everything mimieliza said.

I definitely hope the seats are not defective b/c that would definitely be a products liability claim. I hope for the best and I am a bit naive alot--I would hope that a company that makes products for children have the children's best interests at hand and not the money in their pocket:whistle: but . . . .being in the black is the name of the game.
 

murphydog77

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Here's what I took away from the crash tests that make them seem less scary to me:

-- These were VERY severe crashes - it is uncommon for crashes to be so severe, and no matter what, at those speeds there is a high likelihood of injury for all vehicle occupants.

-- Despite the harness ripping from the shell, the forces on the dummy were within acceptable limits. It seems counterintuitive, but in a severe crash, the straps can rip from the shell, and the seat can still serve its purpose of protecting the child from crash forces.

-- Tests were designed to test seat performance in a variety of scenarios, including misuse (such as using LATCH and seat belt). It's not surprising that the seat would perform badly under such misuse.

-- Results don't seem to be appearing in real world crashes - the Marathon is widely used and has been around a long time; if it was failing catastropically and injuring children in crashes they otherwise would have survived, we probably would have heard something about it (examples: Touriva notches of death; Evenflo infant seats detaching from base, etc.)

-- TC did not recall seats or issue warnings based on these results

I don't think a response or lack thereof by Britax has any bearing on the safety of their seats.

There are plenty of companies (car seat and otherwise) who sell products they know to be defective because they hope they can get away with it and figure their pockets are deep enough to fight whatever lawsuits come their way.

I'm NOT suggesting Britax seats actually are defective nor that the company is engaging in shady activities. I have no idea. But I do think it's naive to assume that any company is truly looking out for anyone but itself.

Also, a test of 18 seats is not enough to draw a scientific conclusion that LATCH/lap-shoulder+tether=failure and lap-shoulder+tether=success.

I agree with pretty much everything mimieliza said.

I agree with both of these posts. I'll admit to having a distinct former fondness for Britax seats (they were the only seats on the market at the time with their features), but I'll also admit to not having bought one of their seats in years. I haven't had the need, nor do I especially like their current booster for my child, which is what class seat my youngest child is currently using. I know all the pros for the company and all of the cons against their seats and feel I can make an unbiased observation (whew--that took a while ;)).

Britax tests, tests, and retests their seats. Sure it's in their own facility, but the point is that they're testing them and if there was a problem, they'd find it. But like Jennie said, I'm not naive enough to not be aware that they're out to make the bottom line profitable and there's a low margin for profit in carseats. I doubt they want to pay out millions in lawsuits, though, so I think they're staying clean, perhaps even moreso than other companies making carseats where carseats are just one arm of the giant money-making machinery (Dorel as a company is humongous and so is Graco-Rubbermaid-Newell).

I might be cautious using a MA in a 2006 Civic using LATCH or whatever setup they used that caused it to fail. But I'd feel comfortable using it any other time. I have one sitting in my closet and think it's a great seat.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I should probably clarify that I think all car seat companies do have the best interests of children in mind (some execute that better than others). But their ultimate motivation is their bottom line. I don't think those are mutually exclusive aims, but it does mean that we, as consumers, need to take everything with a grain of salt.

There are companies out there who, in my opinion, have indeed ignored safety defects and have not issued recalls when necessary. In my opinion, Britax has generally been very responsive and has handled problems quickly and effectively.

I believe there is no danger in using a FF Britax, but that opinion is based on the many other crash tests they HAVE passed, the fact that the seats still provided protection to the TC dummies, etc. Company reputation, previous/current PR, etc., does not play into my assumptions about it.
 

bubbaray

New member
We had an extensive discussion on this in the Canadian/Int'l forum a while back.

My recollection is that the dummies used (6yo) were/are heavier than the then stated/labelled max FFg limit for the Canadian MA (which IIRC was 48lbs).

I am personally still using a FFg MA for DD#2, but she is only 30lbs. Personally, I would not feel comfortable using a MA FFg for a child over 48 or so pounds, though I kinda doubt that child would fit anyway. DD#1 is 40lbs but d/n fit in the MA and hasn't for a long time.

JMHO.

ETA: there are some really insightful comments from techs & instructors on that other thread, if you can find it (I'm going nighty night). There are differences between the Canadian and US test bench and testing methodology, which frankly made my head spin and made me wish I had paid more attention in HS physics.
 

Evolily

New member
My recollection is that the dummies used (6yo) were/are heavier than the then stated/labelled max FFg limit for the Canadian MA (which IIRC was 48lbs).

*SNIP*

ETA: there are some really insightful comments from techs & instructors on that other thread, if you can find it (I'm going nighty night). There are differences between the Canadian and US test bench and testing methodology, which frankly made my head spin and made me wish I had paid more attention in HS physics.

The biggest thing was that the seats were crashed in cars (not on benches) and that they were US seats that were approved to that weight, and probably more or less identical to the current seats. Having said that, I still stand by what I said above. It's primarily of interest academically, in pointing out that britax doesn't equate magic bubble, and for crazy car seat obsessed people to talk about :p .
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
I'm not a Britax fan, and think the videos and NHTSA results are prime examples that price doesn't equate to safety, but at the same time if I had a marathon I'd have no problem using it, especially under 40 lbs FFing, but even over I'd be comfortable. Really, ANY child in a properly used and installed child restraint is a ton safer than many, if not most, of the kids on todays roads.

Yes, this. The seats pass all the tests they *need* to pass; they are safe. If I owned Britax convertibles, I'd use them without worry. (But honestly, if I was shopping for a new seat to be used FFing, I'd pick something else -- these tests would not be the deciding factor but rather just another straw on the camel's back.)

I also do not expect a response from Britax and don't attach anything to that lack of response.

And lastly, I agree that it is naive and dangerous to assume that Britax or any other company cares about anything except selling seats.
 

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