Tether Issues/Seat Similar to Britax Frontier

Qarin

New member
Welcome to the Car-seat.org forums! You've jumped in with a very long post that suggests you have a keen interest in child passenger safety and older European car models- I think you'll find that many people in this forum have been involved in this work for a long time and have a lot of information to share with you, to help you and help you help others, and I look forward to you registering and participating fully!

The models being referred to in this thread was from the original poster- the 2005 Saab 9-2X, and the 2009 Saab 9-3.

I've seen posts saying Saab are based on the Impreza, when that couldn't be further than the truth.

http://www.edmunds.com/saab/9-2x/
"Looking to appeal to younger, less affluent buyers, Saab took the easy way out with the 9-2X by using the "badge-engineered" approach practically pioneered by parent company General Motors. By leveraging GM's overseas partnerships, starting with a Subaru Impreza wagon and adding some unique styling, a retuned suspension and different fabric inside, Saab wound up with the entry-level 9-2X sport wagon."

So, indeed, the 2005 Saab 9-2X is based on the Impreza. Could not, in fact, be closer to the truth.

I also read baby seat tethers being mounted in the ceiling of Saabs? Not true.

I have taken a couple of screen shots from the Saab 9-2X manual- one of them shows that the top tether anchorage for the rear middle seat is, indeed, in the ceiling (but the outboard ones are in floor of the cargo area).

Going back to the original erroneous quote about Saab not allowing the use of center seat anchors because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision is absolutely not true. That's a blanket statement based on what? There's no model given by the writer, no source of information.

As the previous poster said, this was referring to the use of the lower anchors- perhaps because your Saab is so old, you're unfamiliar with the LATCH system, but for the thread's models it is quite relevant to put a warning about not using the middle seat with the lower anchors (but certainly use the top tether there, in the ceiling of that 2005 9-2X). The information given was from a book called the "LATCH Manual", which has been compiled by its authors and editors talking to all the car manufacturers and getting the most accurate information possible by make and model regarding their vehicles' specifications for LATCH. The Saab entry includes the blanket statement, "Use of inner bars from standard outboard LATCH positions for center installation is NOT allowed, unless that position is designated as a LATCH position in the vehicle owner's manual. Use the vehicle seat belt instead." So, as always check your owner's manual. I've attached a bit from the 2005 9-2X which shows its information that the lower anchors are only to be used for the window seats. The 2009 Manual also shows that the lower anchors are only for those outbound positions.
 

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DogznKatz

Active member
The 9-2 has TA's outboard on the back wall of the cargo area and in the center it is on the ceiling behind the seat. The 9-3 has 3 on the backs of the seats. (Per the LATCH Manual).
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Thank you for your reply.

I would like to clear up a couple issues. First, no one said the center of a Saab is unsafe. What was stated is that you cannot use lower anchors in the center of Saabs. Saab's lower anchors are designed to be used by the outboard seats, and they do not allow borrowing anchors for use in the middle. (Doing so would be unsafe as it's not approved. The comment about reinforcing is referring to the fact that LATCH bars are generally secured in pairs. Each pair is meant to be used as one system, and borrowing anchors means that only part of each system is being used.)

The photo you posted shows top tether anchors, which are available for outboard and center seating positions. It's perfectly fine (and recommended) that top tethers be used (with lower anchors or seat belts outboard, and with the seatbelt alone in the center) whenever indicated by the car or the car seat.

If you have any information from Saab showing that they allow borrowing of outboard LOWER anchors for the center position, please feel free to post it.
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I would respectfully disagree regarding no one saying it's unsafe:
06-27-2010, 07:15 PM, "monstah":
"It is important not to use the LATCH anchors in the center backseat. Saab doesn't allow it because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision."

"Content" - may not say unsafe, but "context" certainly does. Even if you choose not to read it that way - it's still an unfounded, blanket statement. "FAIL in collision" and "Saab doesn't allow it." I also stated the writer, "monstah" did not provide any sources that shows that determination.

And contrary (at least for the 99 - 2002 series, and most likely further) SAAB information actually states differently about the center seat position. There are specifics on use, but I stated that clarification on differentiation. I then gave resources by providing a links for manuals (also where I was able to get photos from the manual to share) and deferred to the manual.

I said:
"There is a differentiation based on forward seating or reverse seating, and which anchor /tether points to use, or not use. There is also a differentiation with car seats based on lower and upper tethers, and finally a distinction with car seat manufacturers."

In the end it's completely dependent on the seat manufacturer, just as the SAAB manual states. I also referred and defaulted people to their car manual and, utimately to the seat manufacturer which would provide the conclusive proper use.



For yours (and other's reference) here are screen shots directly from the manual that may help further clarify the differentiations I already, previously mentioned:

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OTHER RELEVANT IMAGES:
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****** OTHER INFORMATION *******
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Anyone owning a SAAB - don't throw it out with the bath water (pun intended) I would encourage checking your SAAB manual. It's very well written.

If you're missing yours you can get from a dealership, eBay, or online with the link I provided. Be sure of your year and model (ie - 9-3, 9-5) The specific differences of a model such as a 9-5 Aero, or a 9-5 SE doesn't matter. )

Further, SAAB was purchased Oct 2012, and as of this writing (Aug '13) there are no worries regarding it's financial situation. It's quirkiness will continue to inspire auto designers and technicians.
 
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LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
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I would respectfully disagree regarding no one saying it's unsafe:
06-27-2010, 07:15 PM, "monstah":
"It is important not to use the LATCH anchors in the center backseat. Saab doesn't allow it because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision."

I'm sorry if there was some kind of confusion. She didn't say the center of a Saab is unsafe. She said using LOWER ANCHORS in the center of a Saab is unsafe...because it is. The center seat is actually the safest place in the car, presuming a seatbelt is used instead. That's actually the case with many cars, not just Saab. Very few vehicles have lower anchors designated for the center position.

None of the photos or information you provided shows anything about using LOWER ANCHORS (as opposed to top tethers) in the center position.
 

Admin

Admin - Webmaster
As a side note to this discussion, I would ask that you please refrain from repeatedly linking to a third party website. Whether or not you are affiliated with the site, this is generally not permitted. Links to a manufacturer's website are generally fine, however, though obviously that is a problem since Saab no longer has a USA website, except for the official parts site.

I suggest that part of the confusion for Saab owners is that much of the information that certified child passenger safety technicians (including the CarseatLady whose website you linked previously) use for this topic is based on the LATCH manual, whose publishers directly surveyed engineers and regulatory staff at auto manufacturers for their official guidelines on the topic. This is important, because most vehicle owner's manuals, Saab included, are short on specifics when it comes to limits and usage of the LATCH system, particularly the lower anchor component of this system. Obviously, if something in a specific vehicle owner's manual clearly contradicts information from the LATCH manual, the owner's manual would be the definitive resource for that particular model and year of vehicle.

This issue is further compounded by the fact that Saab went bankrupt and is effectively out of business in the USA for the moment. New Chinese ownership and future production notwithstanding, the possibility of getting competent clarification on this type of issue from the new Saab ownership or GM is essentially zero.

Finally, when quoting members, please keep in mind that you have resurrected a 3-year old thread. This is a very good conversation, but at some point it may be necessary to split it from the original topic into its own thread.
 

Qarin

New member
I'm looking at page 21 of that 99-02 Saab 9-5 manual- some interesting stuff there! Unfortunately (for us in the United States), it seems to be showing European (actually, Swedish, which is no surprise of course) seats and European belt routing and generally be referring to things unavailable here- US seats don't have support legs (used to prevent overrotation, so it makes sense that Saab would insist on its use for the rear middle, where there is no front seat to possibly prevent that rotation). But, in fact, it makes me wonder if we're looking at a manual for a United States version of the Saab at all (besides that it's not actually relevant to this thread, since this thread is about a very different year and model of car). In fact, the manual from here for the 2000 9-5 does not have those same pictures at all, and talks about IF your rearfacing seat can use a top-tether and gives recommendations about where to put it.

In any case, nobody... NOBODY here is suggesting or has suggested that Saabs are dangerous for child seats! They appear, indeed, to have been early adopters of child passenger safety technology (including providing anchor points for rear-facing tethers)- this is no surprise, since Sweden has been well ahead of the curve in general on child passenger safety.

It is very clear to me that your experience, Unregistered Guest, is with older Saabs, before the complete LATCH system was implemented in the United States, and thus are talking oranges to the apples that were discussed in this (very old) thread. If you're still unfamiliar with LATCH (Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren), you can read about it, among other places, here.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I suggest that part of the confusion for Saab owners is that much of the information that certified child passenger safety technicians (including the CarseatLady whose website you linked previously) use for this topic is based on the LATCH manual, whose publishers directly surveyed engineers and regulatory staff at auto manufacturers for their official guidelines on the topic. This is important, because most vehicle owner's manuals, Saab included, are short on specifics when it comes to limits and usage of the LATCH system, particularly the lower anchor component of this system. Obviously, if something in a specific vehicle owner's manual clearly contradicts information from the LATCH manual, the owner's manual would be the definitive resource for that particular model and year of vehicle.

For reference, here's the portion of the current LATCH Manual that discusses Saab's stance on borrowing anchors in the center:

2c25e305f3e3891c8af8a0e7af7b2aa8.jpg
 

nannykates

New member
Welcome to CS.O.

I'm very sorry if any of what I say offends you, I'm really trying to give you the most information possible! I'm guessing you would identify as "gearhead" before the "car-seat dork" that I refer to myself as. There is a lot of terminology related to every piece of a car and or car seat and I quickly learned from being around here that learning and using the terminology really does cut down on confusion!

There are 2 ways to safely install any car seat seatbelt and LATCH. While seatbelts are always present (in a few different forms but they should be there) LATCH is not and has it's own rules and again, more terminology! Within LATCH there are two separate components the lower anchors and the top tether. The lower anchors are kind of a seat belt alternative and can make some installs easier, but do come with limits and rules (generally not approved for use in the center). The top tether is a different strap that comes from the top of the child restraint and must be used with the lower anchors in forward facing installations and should be used with forward facing installations with seatbelt.

This is just a political correctness thing but the term "baby seat" is not generally used as a blanket term for car seat or child restraint any more because it can cause a stigma in use for older toddlers, preschoolers and children.

I really do hope you stick around, do your research and get involved! You seem like you really do your research and we can always use people who know their little niche of the car world!
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Seems like a lot of animosity here?

Im in the US. My manual is US. I only stated not to throw blanket statements. My other point I made in my first post was regarding a clear distinction and difference that seems to have been missed. And that was it depended upon WHICH WAY the seat was placed, facing forward or back.

And sorry if there are those that think a 2002 car is old. Maybe? Unless you consider much of Saabs innovation and design has remained the same throughout the years, and considerably from 2002 and on. Fact is - much of the Saab is the same design up until only the last few years. One of the biggest distinctions - the infamous 2005 Saab 9-2X model that's been discussed, which from a Saab owner - I hardly consider it much.

I merely said not to lump them all together, to check your own manual, and compare what's compatible with your baby seat.
 

Admin

Admin - Webmaster
Seems like a lot of animosity here?

Not at all. Disagreement does not imply animosity.

In fact, I think you have received a number of very informative responses from some very experienced advocates and technicians, especially given the context and age of this thread.
 

Pixels

New member
There is differentiation based on forward seating or reverse seating, and which anchor /tether points to use, or not use There is also a differentiation with car seats based on lower and upper tethers, and finally a distinction with car seat manufacturers.

Seems like a lot of animosity here?

Im in the US. My manual is US. I only stated not to throw blanket statements. My other point I made in my first post was regarding a clear distinction and difference that seems to have been missed. And that was it depended upon WHICH WAY the seat was placed, facing forward or back.

I think a lot of the problem is misunderstanding of terms.

There is no such thing as a lower tether. There are lower anchors, which are located in the vehicle seat bight (where the vehicle seat back and bottom meet). Lower anchors are often referred to as LATCH, though that's not an entirely accurate term. The lower anchor belt (or LATCH belt) usually feeds through the child restraint through the same belt path that the seat belt would use. There is no differentiation in lower anchor use between forward facing and rear facing. Saab allows use of the lower anchors in the two outboard seats only. The vehicle seat belt can be used to install a child restraint in any rear seating position.

There is a top tether anchor, which can be located in many different places, including on the rear of the seat, on the rear parcel shelf, near the gate sill or in the ceiling. The top tether strap is permanently attached near the top of the child restraint. Top tethers are often not allowed to be used for rear facing seats, though there are a handful of seats that allow their use. Top tethers are generally intended for forward facing use.
 

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