Tether Issues/Seat Similar to Britax Frontier

I have a Britax Frontier installed in my wagon (with LATCH and tether) that DD (3 1/2, 39 inches, 30 lbs) and I both love. She is fast outgrowing her FF Diplomat in dad's car, and would like to get another Frontier, but dad objects to tether in his sedan. (I'm not sure how we'd get the tether to work in a sedan , actually, and I'm sure he is not either.) Can you recommend a seat that is similar to the Frontier in features that we could use without a tether? (Or is there a way to safely install Frontier w/o tether? I don't think so, but maybe I have misunderstood.)

Thanks so much.

Hi. The Frontier is a great seat and so are others in its class (combination seats--seats with harnesses that convert to belt positioning boosters). The big question we need to start with is which vehicle make/model/year is dad driving? We can then figure out where the tether anchor is or whether or not it can be retrofitted if it's an older vehicle.

I'm curious, though, why dad is so opposed to using a tether in his car . He must not realize what a true safety feature it is. Take a look at the picture at this link: http://www.carseat.org/Technical/tech_update.htm#toptether . Compare the carseat in the back with the one in the foreground. Notice how much further away from the vehicle seatback it is--that's the difference between using a tether and not using a tether. Notice how much further forward the child dummy's head travels--that's the difference between hitting the front seat or side pillar and having massive head injuries and not being injured at all in a crash.

I think once her dad understands why tethers are necessary when using LATCH or the seatbelt, he won't object. They're easy peasy to install (clip, pull tight, and go) and don't damage anything.

You should always, always, always use the top tether when installing a child restraint. It does not damage or interfere with use of the vehicle, and it is a crucial safety feature in protecting your child from serious head and neck injuries. Just want to reaffirm that

Once you post back with your husband's make, model and year of vehicle, we can go from there.

Could you also include the year, make, and model of your wagon? I am a little concerned by how you put your concern about using the tether in the sedan that you may not be tethering to an approved anchor in your wagon (although you mention LATCH which means there is a tether anchor there).

The wagon with Frontier and tether in place is a 2005 Saab 92-X (or Subaru Impreza Wagon), and the sedan with Diplomat is a 2009 Saab 9-3.

The tether with the Frontier in my wagon is anchored way far back, sort of near the hatch door (this is the only tether anchor I am aware of at present), so the tether stretches across the trunk of the wagon.

I checked the manual (after posting, sorry) for dad's 9-3 sedan and there do seem to be plenty of tether anchors immediately accessible without getting into the trunk. The current set up in the wagon renders the trunk area somewhat less usable (which I don't mind), and maybe dad is envisioning some very complex problem using a tether in the sedan? Since it seems that we really should be using a tether with these seats, I will have to go back and do more convincing, it sounds like.

(I confess that we do not have the Diplomat currently in the sedan tethered right now - I don't think we grasped that this was required....)

Thanks for your affirming the need for use of the tether!

If you have the Diplomat in with LATCH (and on the side, Saab and Subaru do not allow for center LATCH use), then the tether is required. It's what the T in LATCH stands for (Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren). Britax does not allow for lower anchor use without a top tether. Not forward facing, anyway.

Also, Subaru has a LATCH limit of 60 pounds, and that's the weight of the seat plus the child. Amazon lists the shipping weight of a Diplomat at 19.6 pounds. So at 40 pounds I'd make sure she's using the seatbelt with a Diplomat sized seat in the Subaru. The Frontier is listed at 26.2 pounds shipping weight, which means the child weight for LATCH with that seat in a Subaru is 35.8 pounds.

Saab is 48 pounds, which is the weight of the child only, so you're ok there, providing you're using a LATCH approved position.

Wendy

I don't have any direct familiarity with the Saab (or the later model Subarus), but can you check your manual that you are using the actual Tether Anchor points, and not the cargo area tie-downs? In older Subarus, the tether anchors were up in the ceiling area. I know that the Saab is based on the Impreza but may have a different interior, so it might be that the anchors are on the floor (and later Imprezas might also, for all I know), but it might be worth it for you to double check... the ceiling ones are a lot more convenient for cargo area access!

I'm guessing your DH didn't realize his anchors were right there on the shelf, that the straps wouldn't enter or impact access to the trunk at all; knowing that ought to clear up his issues (I hope).

wendytthomas said:

So at 40 pounds I'd make sure she's using the seatbelt with a Diplomat sized seat in the Subaru.

Click to expand...

I know you know this, but at 40# the Diplomat is outgrown anyhow.

chickabiddy said:

I know you know this, but at 40# the Diplomat is outgrown anyhow.

Click to expand...

Right. Hence the "Diplomat sized seat", since the Diplomat is nearly done with.

Wendy

While searching for the top tether location for your Saabs, I did come across a picture with the anchor in the ceiling although, I can't say for sure what model it was.

My big mistake was going to the Saab forum. Chock-FULL of bad advice. Took all my might not to register and start posting in threads from 2007.

It is important not to use the LATCH anchors in the center backseat. Saab doesn't allow it because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision. (The members on Saab forum don't seem to know this.)

Any forward facing seat must be top tethered. For perspective, in Canada, it is illegal to use a forward facing seat without the top tether attached.

If you would like to post pictures of the car seat installed and where you have it tethered to, we would be happy to take a look for you.

The 2005 Impreza does have the tether anchors in the ceiling.

So, this is probably confusing, but we originally had two Diplomats because we previously had two cars w/small back seats and Diplomat is one of the few post-infant seats we found that fit in them RF without loss of front passenger seat. DD is now FF. At present we only have one car with small back seat (wagon); the sedan with fairly normal back seat. The Frontier is now in the Subaru ("Saab" ) wagon because it was nearly impossible for DD to get into vehicle on own and into Diplomat due to very limited space and mom was breaking back putting her through weird back seat door angle. Diplomat is still in Saab sedan but due to DD nearly reaching the 40" max, we're looking for a replacement (although she does eat well, DD still only 30# on a good day so weight actually less of issue for outgrowing).

We are heading out now to inspect Subaru wagon and verfiy the real tether anchor in wagon! It would be great to reclaim full trunk functionality and use the correct anchor. Points on seat weight + kid weight and limits of LATCH well taken. Thank you!!

Also conveyed your points over dinner and DH is now convinced of readily accessible tether anchors, that this is all doable and tether with new seat and CURRENT Diplomat will be ok. (Phew.)

Does your 3 year old still fit in the Diplomat? The harness needs to come from at or above her shoulders, and the Diplomat has a ridiculously short top harness height. It's quite likely that she has outgrown it or is about to outgrow it.

Also check her shoulders. If her shoulders are above the highest headrest position then she's outgrown the seat by height.

You can get some big carseats in small backseats rear facing, fyi. If you have another it will be good to know. It's best to keep kids rear facing to three to four years old, and rear facing seats can go more upright than the 45 degrees required for a newborn. I just put a Sunshine Kids Radian XTSL in a 1995 Subary Legacy sedan today and it went in beautifully and would fit very well in the middle or behind the passenger. But for a newborn it would have been a wreck trying to fit it in at a 45 degree angle.

To give you another example, it's snug, but we put our Britax Wizard (the old version of the Boulevard, so the big version of the Diplomat) in our Porsche 911 rear facing. I was smushed because it's not a big car, but it was fine to ride around in occasionally.

I'm glad you guys are doing great research and relooking at what you have in your cars. If you have any questions, some pictures of your install or more posts are always welcome. Stick around and feel free to get obsessed as well.

Wendy

So a few hours and much evening darkness later, I think/hope we have things straightened out.

Subaru wagon with Frontier - the car actually has *three* tether anchors (on R and L side of vehicle, on floor of hatch near hatch opening) and one up above near hatch opening in center which is supposed to serve all angles, so we are using that and have effectively reclaimed more of the hatch. Thank you for pointing this out!

The Diplomat is now tethered in the 9-3 sedan. Maedze, I confess I'm not entirely sure what you mean (she was asleep in bed for this whole undertaking) re: fit and the tether, but yes, she will soon (or perhaps has) outgrown the seat. I think it fits her ok heightwise at this very moment (she's not protuding out from the top or anything) but we'll be replacing it immediately following the July 4th holiday, in part b/c I want it swapped out and new install dealt w/ before replacement becomes a very urgent matter.

I'll spare you all the gory details/comedy of the whole process (which involved some twisted belt) and comments I got for instigating this but at least it's done! Should have been really easy but took longer than it should have for some reason. For the moment everything is still lower anchor with tether because of the overall tone of the project, but I'll be reading up how to use the seat belts threaded through rather than the lower anchors (forgot what that is called, like the lap-shoulder belt, the manual is downstairs - hopefully you know what I mean) to address seat_weight+kid_weight LATCH limitations for when Frontier #2 arrives in July and we start this all over again.

Unregistered said:

So a few hours and much evening darkness later, I think/hope we have things straightened out.

Subaru wagon with Frontier - the car actually has *three* tether anchors (on R and L side of vehicle, on floor of hatch near hatch opening) and one up above near hatch opening in center which is supposed to serve all angles, so we are using that and have effectively reclaimed more of the hatch. Thank you for pointing this out!

The Diplomat is now tethered in the 9-3 sedan. Maedze, I confess I'm not entirely sure what you mean (she was asleep in bed for this whole undertaking) re: fit and the tether, but yes, she will soon (or perhaps has) outgrown the seat. I think it fits her ok heightwise at this very moment (she's not protuding out from the top or anything) but we'll be replacing it immediately following the July 4th holiday, in part b/c I want it swapped out and new install dealt w/ before replacement becomes a very urgent matter.

I'll spare you all the gory details/comedy of the whole process (which involved some twisted belt) and comments I got for instigating this but at least it's done! Should have been really easy but took longer than it should have for some reason. For the moment everything is still lower anchor with tether because of the overall tone of the project, but I'll be reading up how to use the seat belts threaded through rather than the lower anchors (forgot what that is called, like the lap-shoulder belt, the manual is downstairs - hopefully you know what I mean) to address seat_weight+kid_weight LATCH limitations for when Frontier #2 arrives in July and we start this all over again.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood the wagon manual regarding the tether anchor placement. On pg. 1-43, it shows the locations of the tether anchors and the center tether anchor is for the center seating position only. You use the tether anchor directly behind each seating position; you can have only a 20* offset for a tether and to install the Frontier on the passenger side and tether to the center tether anchor would be more than 20* offset. It greatly affects how the tether works in a crash.

Glad you got the seat tethered in the sedan and that dh understands why now. It's a pretty simple safety device that does so much .

Unregistered said:

Subaru wagon with Frontier - the car actually has *three* tether anchors (on R and L side of vehicle, on floor of hatch near hatch opening) and one up above near hatch opening in center which is supposed to serve all angles

Click to expand...

As Murphydog pointed out, you have to use the tether located behind the seat you are using.

Unregistered said:

The Diplomat is now tethered in the 9-3 sedan. Maedze, I confess I'm not entirely sure what you mean (she was asleep in bed for this whole undertaking) re: fit and the tether, but yes, she will soon (or perhaps has) outgrown the seat. I think it fits her ok height wise at this very moment (she's not protruding out from the top or anything) but we'll be replacing it immediately following the July 4th holiday, in part b/c I want it swapped out and new install dealt w/ before replacement becomes a very urgent matter.

Click to expand...

Maedze was saying that the one of the ways a car seat becomes outgrown forward facing is when the childs shoulders are above the highest harness slot. The harness needs to come out of the car seat from at or above the childs shoulders. (Spinal compression is one of the reasons.)
It is just common for a Diplomat to need to be replaced by three years old due to the extremely low harness height. If the harness is coming from below her shoulders, the car seat needs to be replaced immediately.

Unregistered said:

I'll spare you all the gory details/comedy of the whole process (which involved some twisted belt) and comments I got for instigating this but at least it's done!

Click to expand...

Was it like hanging the Christmas lights??
Good job fixing the twisted belt. :thumbsup:

Unregistered said:

For the moment everything is still lower anchor with tether because of the overall tone of the project, but I'll be reading up how to use the seat belts threaded through rather than the lower anchors (forgot what that is called, like the lap-shoulder belt, the manual is downstairs - hopefully you know what I mean) to address seat_weight+kid_weight LATCH limitations for when Frontier #2 arrives in July and we start this all over again.

Click to expand...

The seatbelt installation should be fairly simple once you figure out how your seat belts lock. Read the manual, give it a shot, and post back here with pictures. We would love to help with what we can. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with how easy it is. :thumbsup:

Edited to add:
"Find a tech" http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=59135

Think we'll be driving the sedan exclusively for this week and some of next so may just take Diplomat out, put Frontier in it, and retire Diplomat now until we get Frontier #2 (visiting family briefly for 4th and big box sitting on porch would not be good).

At least we have the sedan tether location clearly identified.

Even though this conversation is old, but just as I was researching and I'm sure others will come across this string as well.

We're looking for baby seats for our Benz and Saab and when I came across the below quoted fallacy I absolutely had to say something on it. Talk about "cholk full of bad advice" In just the short time skimming a few pages, I'm shocked to see how much incorrect info and options are posted.

First, although they're a bit unknown, and can be quirky - Saabs are one of the safest cars you'll find on the road, designed with safety and functionality in mind. I've seen posts saying Saab are based on the Impreza, when that couldn't be further than the truth. I also read baby seat tethers being mounted in the ceiling of Saabs? Not true.

During the late 90's through the mid 2000's (99- 02, 03) you can find a lot of commonality it Saab's two most popular lines, the 9-3 and 9-5 (not to be mistaken for year) But even between these two models there were differences.

I did see some good advice here on the Saabs when someone referred to checking the manual. Saab manuals are also probably one the best written, most informative and intuitive manuals I've seen and read. They completely describe where and how to use the specifically designed baby seat hooks, tethers... however you want to refer to them.

Going back to the original erroneous quote about Saab not allowing the use of center seat anchors because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision is absolutely not true. That's a blanket statement based on what? There's no model given by the writer, no source of information

There is differentiation based on forward seating or reverse seating, and which anchor /tether points to use, or not use There is also a differentiation with car seats based on lower and upper tethers, and finally a distinction with car seat manufacturers.

All of those factors (and others) are what need to be taken into consideration - not a blanket statement that the middle back seat of Saabs are unsafe. UNTRUE.

Our 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero actually has THREE top side anchors on what they call the "parcel shelf" (behind the back seat) for each seat position in the back for forward seating, including the middle that are completely safe and very secure.




Another little unknown ingenious functionality (at least with 99 - 2002 9-5's) they come with an integrated child booster seat. (center back) When a child has grown too big for their traditional baby/booster seat, the Saab already has one built in - of course, used with the Saab seat belt.




There's a very good chance you can view your car manual when doing your own research for child and booster seats right here online:
http://www.manualowl.com

This site had "some" good info specifically on seat postions, do's and don'ts: http://www.thecarseatlady.com/vehicles/the_latch_system_10.html

But be careful because they way the word their lists are still not completely accurate because of blanket assumptions on car models and car seats.

When all done and said - still first default to the car manual of the specific model of Saab (your car) and ultimately with the seat manufacturer. Heck, call a dealership if not sure and ask them. But ultimately, every car manual will tell you to default to what the seat is designed for.
= = = = = = = = = = =

monstah said:

While searching for the top tether location for your Saabs, I did come across a picture with the anchor in the ceiling although, I can't say for sure what model it was.

My big mistake was going to the Saab forum. Chock-FULL of bad advice. Took all my might not to register and start posting in threads from 2007.

It is important not to use the LATCH anchors in the center backseat. Saab doesn't allow it because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision. (The members on Saab forum don't seem to know this.)

Any forward facing seat must be top tethered. For perspective, in Canada, it is illegal to use a forward facing seat without the top tether attached.

If you would like to post pictures of the car seat installed and where you have it tethered to, we would be happy to take a look for you.

Click to expand...

Unregistered said:

Even though this conversation is old, but just as I was researching and I'm sure others will come across this string as well.

We're looking for baby seats for our Benz and Saab and when I came across the below quoted fallacy I absolutely had to say something on it. Talk about "cholk full of bad advice" In just the short time skimming a few pages, I'm shocked to see how much incorrect info and options are posted.

First, although they're a bit unknown, and can be quirky - Saabs are one of the safest cars you'll find on the road, designed with safety and functionality in mind. I've seen posts saying Saab are based on the Impreza, when that couldn't be further than the truth. I also read baby seat tethers being mounted in the ceiling of Saabs? Not true.

During the late 90's through the mid 2000's (99- 02, 03) you can find a lot of commonality it Saab's two most popular lines, the 9-3 and 9-5 (not to be mistaken for year) But even between these two models there were differences.

I did see some good advice here on the Saabs when someone referred to checking the manual. Saab manuals are also probably one the best written, most informative and intuitive manuals I've seen and read. They completely describe where and how to use the specifically designed baby seat hooks, tethers... however you want to refer to them.

Going back to the original erroneous quote about Saab not allowing the use of center seat anchors because it is not reinforced and may fail in a collision is absolutely not true. That's a blanket statement based on what? There's no model given by the writer, no source of information

There is differentiation based on forward seating or reverse seating, and which anchor /tether points to use, or not use There is also a differentiation with car seats based on lower and upper tethers, and finally a distinction with car seat manufacturers.

All of those factors (and others) are what need to be taken into consideration - not a blanket statement that the middle back seat of Saabs are unsafe. UNTRUE.

Our 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero actually has THREE top side anchors on what they call the "parcel shelf" (behind the back seat) for each seat position in the back for forward seating, including the middle that are completely safe and very secure.

Another little unknown ingenious functionality (at least with 99 - 2002 9-5's) they come with an integrated child booster seat. (center back) When a child has grown too big for their traditional baby/booster seat, the Saab already has one built in - of course, used with the Saab seat belt.

There's a very good chance you can view your car manual when doing your own research for child and booster seats right here online:
http://www.manualowl.com

This site had "some" good info specifically on seat postions, do's and don'ts: http://www.thecarseatlady.com/vehicles/the_latch_system_10.html

But be careful because they way the word their lists are still not completely accurate because of blanket assumptions on car models and car seats.

When all done and said - still first default to the car manual of the specific model of Saab (your car) and ultimately with the seat manufacturer. Heck, call a dealership if not sure and ask them. But ultimately, every car manual will tell you to default to what the seat is designed for.
= = = = = = = = = = =

Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply.

I would like to clear up a couple issues. First, no one said the center of a Saab is unsafe. What was stated is that you cannot use lower anchors in the center of Saabs. Saab's lower anchors are designed to be used by the outboard seats, and they do not allow borrowing anchors for use in the middle. (Doing so would be unsafe as it's not approved. The comment about reinforcing is referring to the fact that LATCH bars are generally secured in pairs. Each pair is meant to be used as one system, and borrowing anchors means that only part of each system is being used.)

The photo you posted shows top tether anchors, which are available for outboard and center seating positions. It's perfectly fine (and recommended) that top tethers be used (with lower anchors or seat belts outboard, and with the seatbelt alone in the center) whenever indicated by the car or the car seat.

If you have any information from Saab showing that they allow borrowing of outboard LOWER anchors for the center position, please feel free to post it.