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  1. #1
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    Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    My son just outgrew his infant carrier/car seat and we have gone with the Evenflo Triumph for both of our vehicles. The Triumph is a convertible seat that seems like it will serve him for a while. I read ALL the instructions for the seat and feel like I have installed it better than most people, having taken an hour to secure it properly. I have two main questions that I would like opinions on:
    1. The manual states that you should not use the LATCH system AND a seat belt together. I did not follow this advice, as I do not see the logic here. I have both supports used together so that one is a fail-safe to the other. Am I overlooking something here or does this seem better to you as well?
    2. From 1 year old to a certain weight/height, you have a choice on front or rear facing. Many things I've read advise rear facing as long as the child meets the requirements from the manufacturer on rear-facing. They also say that although rear-facing is not as effective if someone rear ends you, it is better if you hit someone else. Evidently statistics show that most accidents are frontal and therefore rear-facing should be better. I have some issues with this logic, since I fear someone rear-ending me more than I fear that I am going to run into someone else. As an experienced safe driver, I feel it better for my 1 year old to face forward for this reason. Meanwhile my wife thinks I should just do whatever the "experts" say and not make a decision for myself! Any thoughts from you would be greatly appreciated.

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  3. #2
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9916868/

    Read this, it's a good summary of what the experts are saying...and there are also SIDE impacts which are very, very deadly, and rearfacing is 4 times safer in a side crash (do you think even good drivers can avoid getting slammed into by some jerk running a red light in a ford excursion going 70mph? Just something to ponder... )

    Call Evenflo. Call your car maker. Find out if THEY approve using both the LATCH and belts....they don't, it's not necessary (both systems are engineered to very high forces, they can be trusted if you follow the limits), and later, when you have to forward face, it may well transfer more energy into your child than it should (G-forces on the chest need to be below a certain limit to help prevent injury, doing both belts increases the forces into your child, rather than letting the belts and the car absorb the crash force)

    Last edited by joolsplus3; 03-08-2007 at 03:07 PM.
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  4. #3
    Senior Community Member SPJ&E's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Also check out these videos to see the crash test footage...you'll see why rear-facing is so much safer:

    This one has a lot of great information: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kRP7ynNI8mI

    And this one has a lot of pictures of older rear-facing kiddos (many are from this board): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psmUWg7QrC8

    And here's a story about rear-facing in rear-end collisions...great story: http://myangelsaliandpeanut.tripod.com/id5.html
    Mom to P (9), J (almost 8), & E (2.5)

  5. #4
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    And rear-facing is safer as long as the child fits that way. Your wife is right - do what the experts recommend, not what you feel must be true based on logic.
    Kelly, mom to Aaric (7.5 and 65 lbs), Mikayla (6 and 52 lbs), and Xander (20 mo and 25 lbs)
    No more Huskies due to a wreck...
    Xander's in a MA, Mikayla in a GN, Aaric is temporarily in the pink Vivo...
    Graco SS1 due to come out of retirement in Jan 09

  6. #5
    Carseat Crazy TheRealMacGyver's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Okay, well thanks for the info and links. I still have some questions about some of the statistics and info (I question everything!). For instance, one of those links said only something like ? 4% of rear collisions, but ? 72% are frontal-what are people hitting in the frontal collisions???? Sure, some are hitting sides of other cars or possibly non-moving objects like trees, but I have some issues with these numbers. The one article with the photos of the rear-end crash is compelling and I think is speaks volumes, but the videos are someones way of trying to prove a biased opinion. I'm not saying I don't believe this, just that I didn't see any video clips in those (youtube) videos showing a rear-end collision, which would have been a more convincing video for me.
    Bottom-line, I will change to rear-facing tonight but I still want to see more on this subject. You see this sort of thing all the time, one day all the experts say one thing, then later they all change to a different thing. The one clip of the girl with her legs bunched up does not look safe to me.

    One the subject of using the LATCH plus belt, I'm not seeing this concept of you saying that it could create too much tension, the seat should not move more than an inch in any direction so how could you have too much restraint on the seat? I like it because I know that the seat is not going anywhere. My car has the LATCH system and I use both, but my SUV does not have LATCH, in the SUV I fashioned an additional rachet strap from the chassis to use on the latch.

    Thank you for the replies, I appreciate you're opinions.

  7. #6
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealMacGyver View Post
    Okay, well thanks for the info and links. I still have some questions about some of the statistics and info (I question everything!). For instance, one of those links said only something like ? 4% of rear collisions, but ? 72% are frontal-what are people hitting in the frontal collisions???? Sure, some are hitting sides of other cars or possibly non-moving objects like trees, but I have some issues with these numbers. The one article with the photos of the rear-end crash is compelling and I think is speaks volumes, but the videos are someones way of trying to prove a biased opinion. I'm not saying I don't believe this, just that I didn't see any video clips in those (youtube) videos showing a rear-end collision, which would have been a more convincing video for me.
    Bottom-line, I will change to rear-facing tonight but I still want to see more on this subject. You see this sort of thing all the time, one day all the experts say one thing, then later they all change to a different thing. The one clip of the girl with her legs bunched up does not look safe to me.

    One the subject of using the LATCH plus belt, I'm not seeing this concept of you saying that it could create too much tension, the seat should not move more than an inch in any direction so how could you have too much restraint on the seat? I like it because I know that the seat is not going anywhere. My car has the LATCH system and I use both, but my SUV does not have LATCH, in the SUV I fashioned an additional rachet strap from the chassis to use on the latch.

    Thank you for the replies, I appreciate you're opinions.
    Cars move forward, so there are more frontal collisions. For every rear ender, there's a front ender, no? If frontals are so rare, then how come IIHS tests them so much?

    As for the LATCH being too tight with the seatbelt, it's not really that it's too tight, it's that you are speeding up how fast you slow down the kid. Think about an egg...if you throw it at a wall, it stops immediately and smashes to smithereens. If you catch it with your hand, your hand moves slowly and gives so it can slow down more slowly, and not break. It's Delta V, you learn it in physics.
    If you want your kid safest, rearface as long as possible in a top tethered seat (I'm afraid to mention that to you, you'll get even more creative with those poor evenflos... Britaxes and the Sunshine Kids Radian can be top tetherd when rearfacing NO OTHER BRANDS ARE APPROVED FOR TOP TETHERED REARFACING... so go buy one of those and use it to the maximum 33 pounds rearfacing). Heck the Britax Boulevard even has a side impact testing and structure for head protection, get a couple of those...the Triumph is really the pits for rearfacing, unfortunately, it's way too short and has way too low of a height limit to really be worth the money.

    This is not the kind of information that comes out in the headlines one day then gets refuted the next...there just continues to be mounting evidence that kids in rearfacing seats walk (or crawl, lol) away from accidents that kids in forward facing seats do not survive or come away from without injury.

    Last edited by joolsplus3; 03-08-2007 at 04:33 PM.
    Julie
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  8. #7
    Senior Community Member scatterbunny's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    In a crash, seatbelt webbing and LATCH belts will stretch. This is supposed to happen. It helps absorb crash forces so the child's body doesn't have to. If both seatbelt and LATCH are used together it could possibly hold the carseat to rigid, and could cause it to perform differently than it does in crash testing. It could cause the seat to be held too tightly (I know it doesn't seem like that would be a bad thing) and more energy will be transferred to the child's body.

    Bottom line is, we must follow the carseat manufacturer's rules; if we don't, we are essentially making our child the crash test dummy.

    Legs being uncomfortable when rear-facing longer than the minimum is a nonissue for most kids. There is not a single documented case of leg injury due to extended rear-facing, while there are countless injuries and deaths due to forward-facing (internal decapitation). In fact, most kids are MORE comfortable rear-facing because it is like a recliner chair; they have somewhere to rest the legs and they are reclined (though 45 degree recline angle is only necessary for newborns; older babies and kids with good head control can be more upright, and it's actually safer). When forward-facing a child's legs tend to just dangle, with nowhere to rest them, and they are more upright. This can sometimes cause strain on the lower back and kids are uncomfortable.

    My daughter would LOVE to be rear-facing if she could. In fact, at almost 6 years old and 50 pounds, she chooses a harnessed seat over a booster seat and sits with her legs crossed, not dangling straight down.

    Look at the US's death statistics in car crashes, then look at Sweden's. In the US, for kids over age 1, car crashes are the #1 accidental cause of death. Only reason it isn't the #1 cause of death for kids under age 1 is because those kids are rear-facing. In Sweden, where they have carseats that rear-face up to 55 pounds, there have been only a handful of kids in a period of YEARS in the rear-facing age/weight range who have died in car crashes.
    ~Jenny

    "When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people." ~Abraham Joshua Hesche

  9. #8
    Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus Jeanum's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealMacGyver View Post
    Okay, well thanks for the info and links. I still have some questions about some of the statistics and info (I question everything!). For instance, one of those links said only something like ? 4% of rear collisions, but ? 72% are frontal-what are people hitting in the frontal collisions???? Sure, some are hitting sides of other cars or possibly non-moving objects like trees, but I have some issues with these numbers. The one article with the photos of the rear-end crash is compelling and I think is speaks volumes, but the videos are someones way of trying to prove a biased opinion. I'm not saying I don't believe this, just that I didn't see any video clips in those (youtube) videos showing a rear-end collision, which would have been a more convincing video for me.
    Bottom-line, I will change to rear-facing tonight but I still want to see more on this subject. You see this sort of thing all the time, one day all the experts say one thing, then later they all change to a different thing. The one clip of the girl with her legs bunched up does not look safe to me.

    One the subject of using the LATCH plus belt, I'm not seeing this concept of you saying that it could create too much tension, the seat should not move more than an inch in any direction so how could you have too much restraint on the seat? I like it because I know that the seat is not going anywhere. My car has the LATCH system and I use both, but my SUV does not have LATCH, in the SUV I fashioned an additional rachet strap from the chassis to use on the latch.

    Thank you for the replies, I appreciate you're opinions.
    I respectfully disagree that the benefits of rear facing expressed by the previous posters are opinions, they're factual and based on the immutable laws of physics and crash dynamics. Check out the extended rear facing brochure and extended rear facing page at http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/stayrearfacing.aspx

    Utilizing an additional ratchet strap in some modified fashion is also on a par with putting your child in the unfortunate position of being a crash test dummy. Installing seats creatively using "aftermarket" products or techniques counter to the carseat and vehicle instructions is setting yourself up to be in position where you give the manufacturers a free ticket liability wise in the event of a crash. Check out this page regarding aftermarket products and carseat manufacturer's positions regarding them: http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/AftMarketMan.aspx

    Your best tool for assuring you have a proper installation is to seek out a qualified certified child passenger safety technician whom you could find through www.seatcheck.org, and at a minimum following your carseat and vehicle manuals to the letter. Sorry if this comes across as harsh because I'm trying to be nice here actually, but your little one's safety is of primary concern.
    Regards,
    Jean

    DD1 Age 16, 66" Driver's Ed
    DD2 Age 12, 64" 5 steps

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  10. #9
    CPS Technician Qarin's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    By doing what you're doing, doubling up the latch+seatbelt, fashioning things to connect to the latch straps on the seat in the car that doesn't have latch, what you are doing is setting your child up as a crash test dummy.

    These arrangements haven't been tested (or, possibly they have, and they failed). Whatever happens in your car with your child strapped in this way, you'll have new data, I guess. Is this what you want for your child?

  11. #10
    CPS Technician AdventureMom's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealMacGyver View Post
    My car has the LATCH system and I use both, but my SUV does not have LATCH, in the SUV I fashioned an additional rachet strap from the chassis to use on the latch.

    Thank you for the replies, I appreciate you're opinions.
    As Jean said, this would make your child a crashtest dummy... And if something happened b/c of failure to restrain the seat, then neither the carseat manufacturer nor the vehicle manufacturer would be held liable - you would... Doing something like this voids your carseat warranty. The accident report would state that you had an improperly restrained childseat. Now, you could argue that there could be an accident and perhaps your device could save your child, but I wouldn't risk it. Also, crash forces are extreme: a 30lb child in a 40mph crash turns into a 1200lb force acting against whatever is restraining him/her. Can your ratchet handle that? LATCH is not any better than seatbelts - just easier. Seatbelts have been around for decades, are designed to hold up to a 300lb adult in a crash, and have been researched/engineered/tested more than the LATCH system can probably catch up with. So you can be confident that the seatbelt is just fine
    Last edited by AdventureMom; 03-08-2007 at 05:09 PM.

    DS|2002|FF in Britax Frontier 85 and Graco TurboBooster
    DD|2007|FF in two Britax Frontier 85's

  12. #11
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Wow, you are one tough cookie to convince! LOL This is one of those times when you look at your wife, nod, and say "Yes, Dear." :-)

    But as for the physics and logic behind it....

    Minor fender benders are very common, you're right. However, you are very unlikely to be involved in a serious collision from the rear. We were in a fairly serious rear ender, we were the front car in a three car collision. The drunk who hit the middle car was doing between 35-45 mph, so we were hit with about 20 mph or more of force. I'm not sure, I don't know the math on force transference or anything. Or even if it's called that. :-) <a href="http://www.baz.com/wendy/piper/09210401.jpg">Here's a picture of my truck</a>. A Saturn wagon hit a Jeep which hit us. So a decent amount of damage considering we weren't hit by the primary guy. $3k worth. We were stopped, and let's say we were hit at 20 mph. Piper was RFing in the back. She was unhurt, and Nathan and I were sore the next day. I would assume she was as well. She had been sleeping when it happened, so as relaxed as you can get.

    If you're involved in a collision of 20 mph you can assume force will be speed x weight. So Piper was 20 pounds and we were hit at 20 mph. That means her body felt 400 pounds of force toward the back of the car. Easy stuff for her harness to catch.

    Frontal collisions, on the other hand, are generally much more violent. In order to have a 20 mph frontal collision you either hit something at 20 mph that's stopped, or you and a car hit that are both doing 10 mph. Or 5 and 15, etc. That's unlikely to happen, normally frontal collisions are faster, at least combined. More likely you're going to have something in the 30 mph range each, so 60 mph total. 60 mph x 20 pounds is 1200 pounds of force. Your child's carseat can stand that, too.

    So why the concern if the harness can catch? You saw the videos. Those are not done on bias (those aren't even American videos, they're European). They are simply based on physics. A body or object will travel toward the point of impact. RFing the entire body tries to go and the seat back catches from the tush to the head. FFing the harness catches from hips to shoulders. That leaves the head to travel toward the point of impact. The head of a one year old is roughly what, a quarter of their body weight? So again, let's say you have a 20 pound kid. That head weighs 5 pounds alone. In a rear ender that head at 20 mph will weigh 100 pounds. In the frontal example that'll weigh 300 pounds. So you want to put as much protection behind it as possible. It will ramp up the seat's back, but not over, and the entire back will take the force of the collision, spread over the carseat's frame. FFing the head has three times more force and has nothing to hold it back.

    Let's see, what else? The neck bones. http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboar..._id=44503&page shows pictures of the neck bones of one and six year olds. You can see that the one year old's bones are still in three pieces. They are held together by cartilage. They are no where near as strong as a six year old's, and even those aren't as strong as an adult's. They get to full strength about 12 years old. At one year old those three bones can move up to two inches. The spinal column can move up to a half inch. What can happen is called internal decapitation. The spinal cord is severed by the kid's own vertebrae. That is less of a risk as the child gets closer to six.

    Someone here has a great analogy. Imaging taking a twizzler and a phone cord, one of the curly ones. Put the twizzler in the middle of the phone cord so it's wrapped around the twizzler. Put your hands on the ends of the twizzler and pull hard. The phone cord will simply straighten, but the twizzler wil snap. That's like the bones and the spinal cord.

    A horrible rear ender is definitely something to be concerned about, not even by just RFers. Something that bad is likely to end up in the back seat where the kid is sitting anyway. Some crashes are unsurvivable, no matter how well protected you are. But we play the statistics game here. Statistically you are a lot less likely to be seriously injured in a rear ender than you are in a frontal or lateral collision. You've seen that statistics. 2-4% of serious collisions are rear enders. That's not saying that they're the least common, just that they're the least likely to be serious. The other 96-98% of serious collisions are frontal and lateral (lateral are actually the most deadly since there is less car between the other car and you).

    If some guy came and plowed into me from behind while I was stopped and he was going 60 mph, would I rather have my child FFing all the time to prevent that? No. Because if I ram into someone and we're both going 60, that's a lot worse. And that's a much more likely possibility than someone completely forgetting to stop.

    As for the LATCH and seatbelt, and the ratcheting, like the others have said you have just turned your child into a crash test dummy. No one knows what would happen.

    A carseat is designed to stretch and bend a bit in a collision. It's called ride down, as the poster said above about catching an egg. Imagine that you were going to jump back first onto a bed. You want something with a bit of give, right? If you jumped back onto a piece of plywood you're going to be hurt. So you want the carseat to move a bit, bend a bit, flex, do whatever it's designed to do. By using LATCH and the seatbelt you may have just held down the carseat so much that now it can't work properly, it's not going to give. You've turned your sealy posturepedic into a sheet of plywood.

    On top of that, LATCH or the seatbelt is going to stretch up to 20%, again to help with the ride down. Same idea as before, which would you rather have, your seatbelt as it is, or your seatbelt frozen stiff with liquid nitrogen? (assuming no injury from the liquid nitrogen) Your seatbelt will stretch and help you slow down. A seatbelt covered in liquid nitrogen is going to shatter at the same amount of force. It'll do no good then.

    So worse case situation for your rigged seats is that they can't do at all what they do and they rip away from the seat and eject your child (because the seat isn't being used properly). Best case situation, everything works beautifully. Let's say it's a 50/50 chance. Play the statistics game now. Is that 50% enough for you to put your child's life on the line? Whereas if you follow the directions properly, use either the LATCH or the seatbelt in the one car, and the seatbelt in the other, then you're looking at 100% that the seat will work properly and your child will be restrained. It has nothing to do with your MacGyver abilities. Save those for the closet shelves, the washer repair, and unlocking the front door without a key. Your carseats are designed to work in one way and one way only. Beyond that no one knows.

    Would you take your driver's side seatbelt, the passenger's side seatbelt, and tie them together over your belly and call yourself restrained? Why would you install your child's seat the same way, by second guessing the manufacturer and by making something up?

    HTH (remember, "Yes, Dear." She's right on this one. :-))

    Wendy
    Last edited by wendytthomas; 03-08-2007 at 05:01 PM.
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
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  13. #12
    Carseat Crazy TheRealMacGyver's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    I realize I'm new here, and therefore subject to some bashing from those who feel they need someone to pick on. That's okay, I can take all you got. That said, I am not some yahoo redneck that rigs up everything. In fact, I am an educated person that has a strong background in mechanical and electrical engineering. So, yes, I understand how the impact absorption is better when the vehicle absorbs it rather than my son. Here's the thing though, I have inspected the car seats I've owned (along with all the other baby related contraptions) and I have to say that some of them are not user friendly at all. One thing I've noticed about the car seat when using the lap belt restraint is that a passenger can unknowingly depress the release button which completely eliminates any restraint of the seat at all. For that reason, I feel two restraints is better than one. Maybe from what I've read here, I might loosen one of them a notch, but I still feel pretty strongly that a backup system is good insurance.

    As for Sweden: I keep hearing this from many of you and I have to wonder if anyone has looked at a map lately? Statistics can be very misleading. Sweden is about the size of California and has a population of about 9 million. U.S. has a population of around 300 million. So, I'm a bit hesitant to start comparing the two on statistical data. Not to say it isn't interesting information, but I just don't think it is apples to apples.

    As for Britax: I researched as much as I had time for before buying the Evenflo. What I decided about Britax is that it is basically a well-marketed car seat that is overpriced. Americans tend to go crazy for overpriced Brittish made goods, so I decided to stay away from it. I wanted two seats that were similar and since someone gave us the Evenflo Orion as gift, and it has fairly good rating, I purchased another Evenflo (Triumph) which is the same as Orion (they changed the name or something for a different market?) Anyhow, I don't think what I have is junk, based on the research that I did.

    Thanks again for the kind advise.

  14. #13
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Evenflos are perfectly safe when used properly, but harder to use properly, and still not as good for rearfacing an optimal amount of time. Consumer Reports gives them a good review partially based on it's lower price. Britax has many extra features that cause it to cost more...compare the higher quality LATCH belts and connectors, the larger amount of eps foam, the built in seatbelt lockoffs, the rearfacing tethering capabilities, the easy fit to a broader range of cars, the one year warranty, the crashed restraint exchange, the thicker non twist harness, the higher rearfacing weight limit, the higher rearfacing and forward facing (in the Big Britaxes, not the Roundabout) height limits. A seat that lasts twice as long but costs twice as much seems to be a good deal in the end, no?
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  15. #14
    Senior Community Member scatterbunny's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    I don't think anyone here has bashed you, just stated the facts as we have learned them (through YEARS of research). For many of us, child passenger safety is our obsession, our passion, our one hobby, our goal is to make all children as safe as possible in the car.

    No one is saying you are some ignorant redneck. My dh is a proud redneck, but he is also educated, an engineer, a tool and die maker in the research and development division of his company. He also thinks rigging up our daughter's carseats is perfectly fine, because he feels/knows it is safer. I override him on this one, however, because of what I know. I will not make my child a crash test dummy, I will use seats to the manufacturer's instructions and use them to the maximums because every step up in carseats/boosters is a step down in safety.
    ~Jenny

    "When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people." ~Abraham Joshua Hesche

  16. #15
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealMacGyver View Post
    I realize I'm new here, and therefore subject to some bashing from those who feel they need someone to pick on. That's okay, I can take all you got. That said, I am not some yahoo redneck that rigs up everything. In fact, I am an educated person that has a strong background in mechanical and electrical engineering. So, yes, I understand how the impact absorption is better when the vehicle absorbs it rather than my son. Here's the thing though, I have inspected the car seats I've owned (along with all the other baby related contraptions) and I have to say that some of them are not user friendly at all. One thing I've noticed about the car seat when using the lap belt restraint is that a passenger can unknowingly depress the release button which completely eliminates any restraint of the seat at all. For that reason, I feel two restraints is better than one. Maybe from what I've read here, I might loosen one of them a notch, but I still feel pretty strongly that a backup system is good insurance.

    As for Sweden: I keep hearing this from many of you and I have to wonder if anyone has looked at a map lately? Statistics can be very misleading. Sweden is about the size of California and has a population of about 9 million. U.S. has a population of around 300 million. So, I'm a bit hesitant to start comparing the two on statistical data. Not to say it isn't interesting information, but I just don't think it is apples to apples.

    As for Britax: I researched as much as I had time for before buying the Evenflo. What I decided about Britax is that it is basically a well-marketed car seat that is overpriced. Americans tend to go crazy for overpriced Brittish made goods, so I decided to stay away from it. I wanted two seats that were similar and since someone gave us the Evenflo Orion as gift, and it has fairly good rating, I purchased another Evenflo (Triumph) which is the same as Orion (they changed the name or something for a different market?) Anyhow, I don't think what I have is junk, based on the research that I did.

    Thanks again for the kind advise.
    I think it's fairly obvious you're an intelligent man. Non intelligent men often don't find their way here, and when they question everything it's not with the questions you have.

    Point for point again:
    The seatbelt release. This is a real problem. Just check it every time you put your son in. It'll be come habit, I glance at Piper's connection as I'm putting her in. I don't even think of it. But the one or two times something has been wrong I've seen it. Not a big deal at all. A passenger should not be unbuckling except for at a stop, so you either have them take a glance on their way out if you're not getting out as well, you glance back if you're not getting out, or you look when you put your son in. For some reason our buckles are always on the driver's side, so I see them easily.

    Sweden: Yes, they have far fewer people. Percentage wise they have far fewer collision related deaths. Not person to person, percentage to percentage.

    Britax: They are pricy. But you'll be able to use a Britax for five to six years, and then Evenflo three to four, probably. Dollar for dollar they're a pretty good buy. However, that doesn't mean they're the be all and end all for seats. They're not for everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Triumph, provided you can get it in properly. If not, Babies R Us will happily let you take seats out to your car so you can try them out before you buy one. You may love an Eddie Bauer three in one, you may love a Britax, you may love a Comfortsport. Our job is not to tell you what seat you should have, but to make sure what seat you have is appropriate for your child and installed as properly as we can tell online. A lot of people love the Triumph. It's a perfectly safe seat when used properly, just like every other seat out there. I like the roundness look of it. hehe

    Definitely see a tech in real life. They'll help you get it in properly and teach you how to do it. The manual is definitely a must read, but unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, the carseat manufacturer cannot foresee every single combination between RFing/FFing and what car and type of seat their restraint is going to be installed in and on. Far too many variables for them to make The Perfect Seat Of All Time that will fit in every car every time. Britax has a pretty good record of fitting, but I've got a truck where a Britax is incompatible FFing in the middle. So even the high and mighty Britax isn't perfect. You have to do the best you can with the manual from the carseat, the manual from the car, and even then sometimes you just need someone who has installed a bunch of seats and can fill in the gap between the two manufacturers.

    The average seat has three errors on it. Very often fatal errors. There is a 96% misuse rate. You are not unique in that you cannot get it to work for you in your car. But you realize it. Most people don't. You're very right, they are not user friendly, they are not intuitive, they are not blatently obvious. Maybe some day, but not now.

    Wendy
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
    https://www.car-seat.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1353&dateline=1552329  785

  17. #16
    Senior Community Member scatterbunny's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by wendytthomas View Post
    The average seat has three errors on it. Very often fatal errors. There is a 96% misuse rate. You are not unique in that you cannot get it to work for you in your car. But you realize it. Most people don't. You're very right, they are not user friendly, they are not intuitive, they are not blatently obvious. Maybe some day, but not now.
    And that's why we have dedicated Child Passenger Safety Technicians and advocates who do what they do on boards like these and at seat checks.
    ~Jenny

    "When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people." ~Abraham Joshua Hesche

  18. #17
    CPS Technician Starlight's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    HEY! What's wrong with rednecks?!?!?!



    Okay, back to seriousness.

    Nobody is bashing you (or calling you a redneck, which in my book, is a compliment) but the stuff that everyone is saying is TRUE, and it's based on actual real life research.

    We're at this board to learn and share what we've learned. Hopefully you are too. I'd venture to say that most of the regulars on this board are not about to make their kiddos out to be crash test dummies. I can't really imagine why any parent would knowingly choose that.

    You might call the Britax overpriced. Those of us who've used other seats might say that they're priced accordingly for the ease of use and some of the extra features.

    I had the pleasure of installing an Evenflo seat (Tribute) yesterday, and my arms are literally covered in scratches. 8-10 on my right alone. I'd pay extra to have the ease of installation w/ the Britax, plus the EPS foam, the plush cover, the thicker straps, the built in lock-offs, the nicer LATCH attachments, the RF tether, higher harness slots, higher weight limit... ummm... what else am i missing.

    OH. padding (what a concept!!!). yeah, I'd pay extra for that. And I love my cow-moo cover. I'd pay extra for that too.

    ETA: Everytime I see the Triumph, I think of bubbles. It's a pity they don't have it in a blue.
    Mom to a Crew! Boys 10, 6, 4 and 2 and Girls 9 and 2!
    Don't ask me if I'm having more, I may be tempted to say yes!

  19. #18
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    So, what are the three common errors??

  20. #19
    CPS Technician Starlight's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    Quote Originally Posted by nurse_reedle View Post
    So, what are the three common errors??
    There are more than 3, just on avg, there are atleast 3.

    They might include too loose a harness, harness threaded wrong, chest clip as a belly clip, seat installed too loose, seat installed in the wrong belt path, seat installed in mysterious ways (ie, w/ LATCH & seatbelt, or some jury rigged system), mighty-tites, child to big/small for position, too big/small for seat... ummm.

    there are a gazillion more, but there's some.
    Mom to a Crew! Boys 10, 6, 4 and 2 and Girls 9 and 2!
    Don't ask me if I'm having more, I may be tempted to say yes!

  21. #20
    Car-Seat.Org Zealot skaterbabs's Avatar
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    Re: Forward facing VS. Rear facing

    *seatbelt not locked
    * harness too loose
    * LATCH & seatbelts together

    add to that:
    * locking clip used incorrectly
    * weird things added to installation (wood to adjust recline on an infant seat, comforter to prevent vehicle seat damage, ect)
    * seat tethered RF when it's not allowed.
    * incorrect seat for child
    * child not in seat who should be
    * child FF too soon


    I'd say those are the big 8.
    Rebekah Branch, CPST from May 2005 until June 2011
    Mom to CJ (7/96, seatbelt), Gregory (4/98, seatbelt), & Joyjoy (10/03, misc. booster seats)
    "That which you create in beauty and goodness and truth lives on."
    - Denis Waitley

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