Risks of EH/booster training at 4.5

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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
Based on the stuff I've seen from Sweden, and talking to a lot of my tech friends, I decided to go straight from RF to a HBB. My son is currently booster training now, and is sitting RF in an XTSL when he's not training. He's 4.5 43 inches tall and 40 pounds (39 pounds naked). He sits quite well in the seat 'straight and tall' as we say and doesn't move around to look at stuff or pull at anything. I'm hoping to keep him training til next spring when he would go to boostering full time (around 5.5).

I posted a thread about it on another board, and was basically told I had no clue what I was talking about, that extended harnessing was safer, blah blah blah. I've read that they are pretty much the same safety wise, you just choose different risks with each, such as higher neck loads with EH or higher risk of sumarining with HBB.

I was told I should bring this discussion here, so I'm not sure if this is the right place or not, but what are your thoughts on this?

Right now he's using the Nauti as a booster (yes, I know it fits a lot of kids that young funny, but it is fitting him properly) and I was planning on moving him to the Monterey, but some people have suggested the Parkway for the anti-submarine feature. What is your opinion on that?
 
ADS
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Maedze

New member
I think what you're doing is perfect, actually. Booster training at 4, full time boostering at 5 1/2, with rear facing up till then? Ideal. Rear facing is safer than forward facing, any day of the week. 4 years old is a good time to start 'training' because although most 4 year olds don't have the impulse control to do full time boostering, they DO have the desire to please their parents and follow the rules. That helps them adapt quickly.

There is no known safety benefit to harnessing beyond when a child can sit correctly in a booster. Many-to-most kids will do great in a full time booster at 5.5, and if you can keep him fitted rear facing to that point, awesome.

Now, you might find that he outgrows the rear facing capabilities of the Radian XTSL at 5.5, and he just isn't quite ready for full time boostering. In which case, I'd recommend using the Nautilus in harnessed mode for longer trips until he's ready to switch 100% of the time.

However, I agree with the recommendation of the Parkway over the Monterey. The Monterey tends not to provide a good shoulder belt fit for younger, smaller children. The Parkway will position the belt better, and I do like the idea of the SG clip for little kids.


(I do want to reassure you that harnessing is not unsafe. If you want to forward face/harness him, that's great. Just use the top tether.)
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
Yeah, if he can't fit RF and isn't ready to full time booster, I'll definitely harness him. I don't think it's 'unsafe', but I think that every parent should take the risks/benefits of each decision and decide what to do. I don't have a problem with people deciding to EH (although I don't really see the point, PERSONALLY) but people really got pissy (is that word ok to use?) with me and basically told me I was making a really unsafe decision.

I can't find the info I used to have about the increased neckloads on harnessing, but I've heard many techs say it.

I just think there's a false sense of security with EH, that because it's advocated for children under 4 if a parent chooses not to RF that people assume it's ALWAYS the safer option and, then they whip out the NASCAR exapmle. It's kinda frustrating for me.

Thank you for your help, so two votes for the Parkway.
 
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Maedze

New member
The Nascar argument is a red herring, because we're not talking about the same kind of crash forces AND the driver has his HEAD tethered to the vehicle. We don't do that to kids, generally ;-)

That being said, there is actually plenty of 'point' to extended harnessing. I have two kids who are harnessed beyond 4 and 40 right now.


My oldest rear faced to 2 years 3 months (reached the maximum weight of his rear facing seat) and went forward facing. Now, at almost 6, he is much happier in a harness. Although he could sit correctly in a booster, it's mentally tiring for him. He fits well in his Nautilus and will be using the harness as long as it fits him.

My daughter rear faced to 4 years in her Graco My Ride, when she outgrew it. She is by no means ready to booster full time right now. She is booster training, but it will be a year or two before she's there. I have no intention of removing her from the harness any time soon.

The Radian is incompatible with my vehicle, in any case, and once the child reaches 4 years, the cervical spine are almost certainly fused. The benefits of rear facing over forward facing close to a much narrower margin at that point.

Boostering is not safER than harnessing with a top tether for an older child, but it is at least AS safe, presuming we're talking about a good booster.
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
I'm sorry, I hope my reply didn't get on under your skin. I think I'm still a little irritated from last night and not phrasing things, um, very well. Especially considering I'm new to the board.

Let me try again. (And to repeat this point, since it doesn't seem to be clear that I don't think boostering is safer, I just don't think it's LESS safe) I do not think boostering is safER, I think they're equally safe if the booster is good, the child is sitting correctly and fits correctly in the seat.

I think there is a point where EH is the best option. These cases would be when a child is not ready to sit in a HBB. I am not anti-EH. However, I don't think the safety benefits are so much greater if your child is sitting in a seat properly that fits him that I should be attacked for my choice. I don't see the point in harnessing, say, a 10 or 11 year old who is perfectly capable of sitting in a booster, but I know people who do that and swear that it is the most absolute 100% safest choice. I would never attack their choice though, it's their decision.

The examples you gave of your children EH are perfect illustrations of when there IS a point to EH. But if a child is ready, comfortable, fits and sits correctly, then to some families, there's no point to EH, there's no more safety benefit. And so I don't think that parents who make that choice should be attacked.

I know the average age of cspine fusion is 3-5, so, for me PERSONALLY, if I can keep my child rear facing til the outer edges of that, I am more comfortable.

Dunno, maybe I'm just being bitter.
 
crunchierthanthou

crunchierthanthou

New member
CarseatNerdGirl said:
I can't find the info I used to have about the increased neckloads on harnessing, but I've heard many techs say it.
Click to expand...

Many? wow. I don't even know many techs who could thoroughly discuss neckloads on harnessed kids over age 4. As Maedze said, there is no known safety benefit to harnessing beyond when a child can sit correctly in a booster (and I would add if the child fits well), but I don't know that we have hard evidence that there's any danger to EH either. It's difficult to say for sure because EH is a relatively new trend and there just isn't a big enough data set.

Ds is 5.5 and about the same size as your son. He's still harnessed in the GN, except for very rare occasions. I'm aiming for the end of the summer when he starts school for switching to a booster. He sits well in them now, and we have a couple that I like the fit. However, some recent data shows that perhaps the ribcage/sternum of younger kids isn't developed enough to support the force of the shoulder belt. He'll be pretty close to 6 and I'm feeling okay with making the switch then.

All that to say that there just isn't enough data either way. :shrug-shoulders:

I don't think your plan is a bad one. I wouldn't recommend a Monterey for a slim 4 year old, but you may surprised a year from now at how well it fits. I know I was with my son. The difference in shoulder belt fit from 4.5 to 5.5 was astounding. :)
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
Many? wow.

You have to understand, I'm speaking in relative terms. There's not a lot of car seat techs in my area :p. When I say many, I'm thinking I have heard 4 of my 6 tech friends say something to me about it.

Not one of them mentioned it in a way that made it sound like EH was UNsafe. They ALL mentioned it in a way to explain that booster/EH are relatively equal safety wise, with different risks, that being the risk of EH.
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
I hope you stick around, you are going to fit right in

Uh oh, I'm scared. I'm a bitter, pissy woman :p. Sometimes.

I'm taking the class in October, maybe I'll feel more comfortable then.
 
stayinhomewithmy6

stayinhomewithmy6

Senior Community Member
I want to commend you on making an EDUCATED decision. Many parents don't take the time to thoroughly educate themselves (or maybe they just don't realize that there's so much to learn) about car safety. I think you know what you are talking about and have considered the benefits and risks when making your decision. I think your plan is absolutely just fine.

I personally like to EH my kids until about age 6 when I know that they'll be able to sit correctly in a booster without me constantly hounding them, but some kids are ready earlier than others. Actually, my 8 1/2 yr old still slouches terribly and I'm constantly on him to "sit up!" I'd much rather have him in a harness, but the only EH seat he would fit in at this point would be a Regent and we don't have room for it in our van. My almost 7 yr old DD, on the other hand, does terrifically well in a booster and I'm sure she would have even when she was 4. Just one more thing I want to bring up... a benefit of EH for some people is that it is usually MUCH easier to buckle a harnessed seat than a booster in 3 across situations. For my almost 6 yr old DS, 44 lbs, in an XTSL between a PW and Combi Connection, EH is the ONLY option right now.
 
urchin_grey

urchin_grey

New member
I don't disagree with you. :) Plenty of kids are ready for a full time booster at 5.5. I would personally love to be able to go straight to a booster when DS is no longer able to RF. He just turned 5 and is very tiny and still has plenty of growing room in both his TF and RN but he is also socially delayed and immature so I'm not sure that will be an option. I might have to keep him harnessed for another year or two before he's ready.

We may even start booster training my nephew as soon as he turns 4 as well, simply because his father and paternal grandparents are carseat STUPID. His dad refuses to RF him anymore and none of them can figure out a 5-point harness either. So yeah, he'd probably be safer in a properly used booster than an improperly used/installed harnessed seat. We wouldn't send him off in a booster either though unless DN is 100% capable of alerting an adult if something isn't right. He only goes with his dad once every couple of months either way though and he'd stay RF'ing in our vehicles and his maternal grandparents vehicles until he outgrows the RN.
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
stayinhomewithmy5 said:
I want to commend you on making an EDUCATED decision. Many parents don't take the time to thoroughly educate themselves (or maybe they just don't realize that there's so much to learn) about car safety. I think you know what you are talking about and have considered the benefits and risks when making your decision. I think your plan is absolutely just fine.

I personally like to EH my kids until about age 6 when I know that they'll be able to sit correctly in a booster without me constantly hounding them, but some kids are ready earlier than others. Actually, my 8 1/2 yr old still slouches terribly and I'm constantly on him to "sit up!" I'd much rather have him in a harness, but the only EH seat he would fit in at this point would be a Regent and we don't have room for it in our van. My almost 7 yr old DD, on the other hand, does terrifically well in a booster and I'm sure she would have even when she was 4. Just one more thing I want to bring up... a benefit of EH for some people is that it is usually MUCH easier to buckle a harnessed seat than a booster in 3 across situations. For my almost 6 yr old DS, 44 lbs, in an XTSL between a PW and Combi Connection, EH is the ONLY option right now.
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Thank you so much for the kind words and support :)
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
urchin_grey said:
I don't disagree with you. :) Plenty of kids are ready for a full time booster at 5.5. I would personally love to be able to go straight to a booster when DS is no longer able to RF. He just turned 5 and is very tiny and still has plenty of growing room in both his TF and RN but he is also socially delayed and immature so I'm not sure that will be an option. I might have to keep him harnessed for another year or two before he's ready.

We may even start booster training my nephew as soon as he turns 4 as well, simply because his father and paternal grandparents are carseat STUPID. His dad refuses to RF him anymore and none of them can figure out a 5-point harness either. So yeah, he'd probably be safer in a properly used booster than an improperly used/installed harnessed seat. We wouldn't send him off in a booster either though unless DN is 100% capable of alerting an adult if something isn't right. He only goes with his dad once every couple of months either way though and he'd stay RF'ing in our vehicles and his maternal grandparents vehicles until he outgrows the RN.
Click to expand...


Grandparents are so frustrating. More likely to stick a 2 year old in a HBB.
 
cookie123

cookie123

New member
CarseatNerdGirl said:
Grandparents are so frustrating. More likely to stick a 2 year old in a HBB.
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I kind of resent that.:whistle: There are many many uninformed parents.
Hanging around downtown Minneapolis during the nursing strike on Thursday, I was able to observe that many of them live there! I wanted to yell out to them to put the baby in a child seat, or in the back seat. I wanted to call 911.
 
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CarseatNerdGirl

New member
cookie123 said:
I kind of resent that.:whistle: There are many many uninformed parents.
Hanging around downtown Minneapolis during the nursing strike on Thursday, I was able to observe that many of them live there! I wanted to yell out to them to put the baby in a child seat, or in the back seat. I wanted to call 911.
Click to expand...

LOL, I'm sorry. Don't take it personally, I don't think every grandparent is like that. My dad would've happily stuck C in a HBB when he was 2, and if you read reviews for some of those cheapy HBB seats, you'll notice a lot of grandparents talking about howt hey bought it for their 2 year old grandchild and how wonderful it is blah blah blah.

I think maybe this might be breaking the board rule about pointing out violations though, maybe I shouldn't have said antyhing. I'm sorry.

Please ignore typos - no sleep last night.
 
hrice

hrice

New member
CarseatNerdGirl said:
Grandparents are so frustrating. More likely to stick a 2 year old in a HBB.
Click to expand...

My mom couldn't wait to turn DS FF at 1. However, I informed her otherwise. She tells me that they didn't have seats for infants when I was born and she just laid me on the passenger seat and put her hand on me while she drove! Apparently I had a toddler seat later on though? So that is where she is coming from on car seat safety. She thinks I am a paranoid freak...oh well...my kids are safe!

I purchased 2 Radians and they will RF in her car until at least 4. She rolls her eyes at me when I talk about it but she has agreed to follow my rules (well, at least on car seats).

PS
If your son can sit properly and fits properly in the booster I totally agree that it is safe at his age. I will probably EH till 6 but that is just me. I have super wiggly kiddos though! Would you mind posting a pic of your child in his booster?
 
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Sadierain

New member
Well, hello again! :p I'm glad you've made your way over here, I do like this board much more than the BBC board.
We've already been over this, clearly, but I do agree with you that I feel more comfortable following in the Swede's footsteps, RF'ing to age 5+ and then flipping to a BPB. I've been doing more research on neck loads lately, and I just feel more comfortable choosing not to EH if it's not necessary - just as you. You'll find this opinion isn't nearly as controversial as it on on the BBC board.
 
emandbri

emandbri

Well-known member
Like others said there are no studies saying one is safer than the other but I admit that my gut feeling is that a harness is safer.

All the pictures I have seen here of young light kids in the nautilus in booster mode the belts have not fit well so I would not
recommed using it. I agree that the Monterey would most likely be too wide. I think if you really want to do thus the parkway us your best bet.
 
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