load on neck vs submarining risk?

Jan06twinmom

New member
When I first learned a lot about car seats and saw the Kyle David Miller video, I thought I would harness my kids as long as possible. She has one more harness slot on the Decathlon and even more growing room in our Radians and Regent. I probably could keep her harnessed until she is 9 or 10 years old in our seats - up until when the seats expire!

However, I've been reading and learning more so now I'm questioning that idea. I'm concerned about the force that would be exerted on her neck in a 5pt harness car seat. However, I've also read enough to know about the submaring risks with small children.

My DD is petite. At 5y4m she is about 40.5in tall and weighs 36lbs. She's around the 25th percentile on the growth charts. She wears size 4T clothing, but probably could fit into 3T clothing if it wasn't for the length issue. I think she's particularly small in the hip and butt area - and she has skinny legs and arms.

My idea had been to wait until she is 40lbs - which will probably happen when she is over 6 years old - maybe even 7. But should I make the transition sooner even if she is under 40lbs?

Also, when I do make the transition, which boosters work best for small/petite children? One of my thoughts had been the Britax Parkway SG but that has the 40lb minimum on it.

Melanie
 
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KelliBella

New member
I'm not a tech, so take this with a grain of salt. I think that neck loading becomes more of an issue when dealing with a larger/older child, say someone 7-9 years old. I think at the age/weight of your child, the benefits of being harnessed still outweigh any possible risk of increased neck load. :twocents:

If I'm mistaken, someone please correct me. :)
 

jjordan

Moderator
The Parkway SG does have the clip specifically to prevent submarining, so if that is your concern, it would be a good seat to try once she gets to be 40#.

As far as I am aware, there haven't been any studies comparing the relative safety of older children in 5 point harnesses vs properly used boosters. Either is very safe. I definitely wouldn't feel the need to rush her into a booster at this point.

If my child still had not reached 40# by the time she was 7 years old or so, I personally would feel comfortable using a Parkway SG (assuming the fit was good) at that point, despite Britax's 40# minimum for the seat.
 

mamabear

New member
I would definitely keep her harnessed to at least 40lbs, no matter what age that happens (she could still RF!!). Given the fact that she is so petite I'd look into the PW with slide guard after that.

We just don't know if harnessing after a certain booster appropriate age is safer or not. I think it's about equal as there are so many variables to what happens in accidents. Once a child reaches booster appropriate age and size, there is no reason not to graduate booster if you so choose.
 
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y_p_w

New member
Like I've said before, has anyone thought of creating a HANS-like device for kids? I know this is somewhat overkill, but perhaps something similar could be done on a more modest scale. Auto racers typically use 5-point harnesses, and the most dangerous loads are from the neck snapping in different directions relative to the harnessed body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

300px-Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg.png
 

An Aurora

Senior Community Member
As far as I'm concerned, it's a matter of real risk (submarining) versus perceived risk (neck loads). At a certain point, the risk of submarining goes down, and at that point the risk of increased neck loads moves to the forefront.
 

An Aurora

Senior Community Member
Like I've said before, has anyone thought of creating a HANS-like device for kids? I know this is somewhat overkill, but perhaps something similar could be done on a more modest scale. Auto racers typically use 5-point harnesses, and the most dangerous loads are from the neck snapping in different directions relative to the harnessed body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

300px-Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg.png

Way overkill, IMO, in a typically developing child. Boosters are completely safe for a child of the proper age and size ;)
 

bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
As far as I'm concerned, it's a matter of real risk (submarining) versus perceived risk (neck loads). At a certain point, the risk of submarining goes down, and at that point the risk of increased neck loads moves to the forefront.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Are you saying FFing neck loads are not a real risk?
That makes no sense at all?
If FF neck loads (and internal decapitation) aren't a real risk, then why bother with Rearfacing?
Now, I don't know of any studies comparing risk of submarining to risk of neck/spinal injuries, I can't say which is a bigger risk at any given age or size, but to say that neck loads are a "perceived risk" and not a "real risk" just boggles my mind.
Maybe I'm missing some vital piecec of information here?
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
here's my thoughts... for the purpose of never knowing what could happen and all that, I like kids over 5yrs AND 35lbs (preferably 40, but there are some lightweights out there) to know how to use boosters... for emergency purposes.

but as a spare seat, I like them to be 5yrs AND 40lbs
and as a primary seat... 6-7yrs old AND 40-50lbs.

Now, for me, age 6-7 is when the murky zone appears... their heads are more proportionate, bones more solid, all that... and I know the top tether is similar to having a helmet tethered... so I think it comes down to parental choice... my choice was this... I had none with Damian, after re-harnessing him right before age 6 (he had a scoliosis which affected his ability to sit straight when sleeping in his booster, no matter which booster and how much support it gave him in my van)... he outgrew the Regent at 6.5yrs... 9months after getting it. Fortunately, he'd also outgrown the curvature in his spine.

With Jeffrey, I did have a choice... and I chose to compromise. My son was mature enough and capable of buckling himself, even... and he started asking about moving to a booster when his older brother moved. I told him I would think about it... and I came up with what my ideal was (age 7 and 50-60lbs) and what I was fine with... the bargain area... and I made a deal with him that he had to be 6yrs old, 50lbs (he was already 48lbs... I knew he'd hit it... for Ruthie, who was skinnier... I just told her she had to stay at least 45lbs), doing well in school and going into 1st grace (I removed the second half for Ruthie... she's got a March birthday and her brother was summer), and be mature enough to ride in it properly. For him, I added buckle and unbuckle himself, because I knew he'd end up frustrated and upset if he went from a seat where he could get in and out on his own with me only checking for proper chest placement, no twisting, and tight straps to a seat where I had to buckle him.

It worked for him.

With Ruthie, she had a long torso, but wasn't comfortable in the Regent... I had her in the Radian, then got a Nautilus and moved the Radian to spare use when her britax laptop expired. I knew she had little time to grow, so I booster trained her at 5... and 2wks before she turned 6, she went over the top slots in the Nautilus and we had to make the switch permanent. I'm thrilled about the Britax Frontier 85 for kids like her... if I'd had it instead of the regents, she'd have been harnessed till age 7 like I wanted.
 

a_js

New member
I think we just don't know enough about neck load versus risk of submarining. There simply isn't enough data.

My personal take is that if a child is 4 years old and 40 pounds, a booster is a safe option, assuming that the child can sit properly in it and not wiggle. For us, a booster at 4 wasn't an option even though he was 40 pounds; he couldn't hold still. At 5 1/2 or so, we started booster training, and at a month from 6 he's in one full time. I had hoped to harness him until 6, and quite honestly I'm a little disappointed that we didn't--but what I did want to do is take advantage of his desire to booster train so I could teach him properly. Essentially, I took that opportunity to brainwash him ;) and told him if he wasn't able to sit up straight and sit back, he'd go right back in the Radian. Now I need the Radian for the newbie in a fairly short time, so it's basically an empty threat, but he has done so well I'm not worried.
 

Carrie_R

Ambassador - CPS Technician
She sounds like a little guy I watched for years. (From 3m until he was 5y10m, through last summer.) For perspective, he still fit into a Cosco HBB (the harnessed one) when he left me, at almost six.

He's been boostered with his parents for a while, but even at almost six, I had a really tough time boostering him. Although he left me at the end of the summer, he came back for a few days over Tgiving, Christmas, and Spring Break. I made him harness for the first two breaks, and he spent Spring Break (so at 6y5m) alternating between boostering and RFing. That was largely due to convenience/fitting seats in my vehicle, but also because I HATED the booster fit on him. It fit him acceptably in his parents' vehicle, but not in mine. He was about 38lbs then. I was okay with boostering him, just not crazy about boostering him in the particular seat + seating position available.

All of that said, for a peanut like that, I would be okay somewhere between 6 and 6.5. I would definitely be a stickler for needing an EXCELLENT booster fit, though. As a PP said, I might consider the SG for my own child a bit before the 40lb... but of course I can't recommend you do that. (What is the lower booster weight for the Frontier? Could one order the SG clip for the Frontier for use lower than 40lbs?)

I feel like for those lightweight kids, they're dealing with less in terms of neck loads than, say, my 63lb 6y4m old. They just have less mass to be thrown forward, kwim? Conversely, they're more at risk of submarining. In my mind at least, I feel like those two risks balance each other out, ie, one rises as the other falls... but I'm not sure if that's factual or just my perception.
 

An Aurora

Senior Community Member
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Are you saying FFing neck loads are not a real risk?
That makes no sense at all?
If FF neck loads (and internal decapitation) aren't a real risk, then why bother with Rearfacing?
Now, I don't know of any studies comparing risk of submarining to risk of neck/spinal injuries, I can't say which is a bigger risk at any given age or size, but to say that neck loads are a "perceived risk" and not a "real risk" just boggles my mind.
Maybe I'm missing some vital piecec of information here?

Um, no, I was referring to the argument that boosters are safer than harnessed seats for kids old enough to be forward facing (say, 3+). Of course I know that neck loading is a concern with younger kids. This thread specifically addresses older children, 4+, so I thought that would be obvious.

To clarify, with a 35 pound 4 year old I would worry more about submarining in a booster than I would worry about neck loading in a harnessed (tethered) seat. For a 50 pound 7 year old, not so much.
 

babyherder

Well-known member
Personally, I think it depends on what kind of accident you get into. If my car rolls over and ends up upside down I want kids in 5 point harnesses. If we're hit head on I want kids in boosters. (Given rear facing is not an option for any of these kids). But I can't predict what kind of accident I'll be in so its not much help.
 

y_p_w

New member
Personally, I think it depends on what kind of accident you get into. If my car rolls over and ends up upside down I want kids in 5 point harnesses. If we're hit head on I want kids in boosters. (Given rear facing is not an option for any of these kids). But I can't predict what kind of accident I'll be in so its not much help.

I mentioned the "Head And Neck Support" system used in high-level auto racing and linked to the diagram of the system. I wasn't sure if there might be some way to implement a similar system on a child's scale. The idea is to keep the head from whipping too far forward, although it requires a helmet to properly implement.
 

babyherder

Well-known member
I mentioned the "Head And Neck Support" system used in high-level auto racing and linked to the diagram of the system. I wasn't sure if there might be some way to implement a similar system on a child's scale. The idea is to keep the head from whipping too far forward, although it requires a helmet to properly implement.

I wish there was something similar for regular car passengers. Sounds like it would be good for everyone.
 

mamabear

New member
it would be safer for everyone to wear a HANS type system, but unfortunately, I don't think wearing any kind of helmet is going to catch on any time soon.
 

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