Is this safe?

seamonkeys · May 14, 2010

A friend posted a review of the Safety 1st Complete Air and posted a picture of her almost 3 yr-old (30 lbs) rear-facing. It's super reclined and she says in the review that it's like that because the instructional video said it needed to be installed with the "line" on the side of the seat level with the ground.

Is it safe to have an older toddler so reclined? I guess I've never seen that, so seems wrong. But maybe I'm wrong, so I wanted to check here.

bobandjess99 · May 14, 2010

technically, your friend is following manuufacturers (stupid) instructions.
Dorel sticks to the claim that you MUST recline the seat a full 45 degrees, for any size child, in rearfacing mode. No exceptions.

Now, WE all know that over rotation is a serious danger, and with an older kid, having a less reclined seat is probably safer, and all other manufacturers allow for a 30 or 35 degree angle for older children, but dorel maintains the 45 degree angle is necesary.

MY 3 yo is NOT at a 45 degree angle in his CA, I'll tell you that,

Spam · May 14, 2010

HOLY COW that's like laying down for the ride. Wow and the front passenger must really like the windshield.

Splash · May 14, 2010

That seat is stupidly over reclined. The line is a guideline but depending on the seat slope it might be impossible to do. You can see on the bottom of her seat that the base isn't even in full contact. Her seats are too sloped for the line to be level. It might not be unsafe to be that reclined, bug it is to have the base out of contact with seat.

ketchupqueen · May 14, 2010

I note that this is an instruction common to all Dorel convertibles. I have no problem whatsoever disregarding it; we've been putting Dorel seats (Scenera, Avenue, etc.) less reclined for years and I've never heard of a bad outcome reported from it, even though there have I'm sure been hundreds of us just here on this one board who have had a child restrained RF at a less than 45 degree angle in a Dorel seat in a crash. In fact my CPST-I when teaching my class used a Dorel seat (Scenera) to demonstrate the range of acceptable angles and what a newborn needs vs. an older kid.

KaysKidz · May 14, 2010

Did you guys see the HUGE loosely rolled towel used in the video? OMG!

snowbird25ca · May 14, 2010

The difficulty with Dorel being so picky about the line is that many of those lines are not placed so that the seat is anywhere near a 45* angle once it's installed.

It's hard to tell exactly where this seat is because of the angle the picture is taken at, but I'd hazard a guess it's in the 50* range.

I have no problems with keeping an older rf'ing child at 45* if the seat fits and all the other passengers can ride safely. But as soon as you push it the smallest amount, it obviously becomes a problem. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that this is a case of the seat being over-reclined due to the line not being applied at the right angle.

seamonkeys · May 14, 2010

Thanks everybody! I can see how this type of instruction could deter parents from ERF. If they have an older child who doesn't like being in the full recline, the parents are likely to give up on RFing and just turn them around. :thumbsdown:

mommycat · May 14, 2010

Wow, that doea look over-reclined. Would you be able to ask your friend to take a picture more straight on, showing the whole seat (and hopefully the level line as well)? And, could she do a pic of the paper test inside the seat to "test" the level line? I was also a little taken aback by how far the shell is off the seat except right at the corners.

One more - in the FF install pic, does it look like the vehicle seat is reclined quite a bit? Or are some van seats just naturally reclined like that? ETA I think that if the vehicle seat back is reclined, it might be making the RF install look more reclined than it really is by making the angle between seat back and carseat so big.

NannyMom · May 14, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
The difficulty with Dorel being so picky about the line is that many of those lines are not placed so that the seat is anywhere near a 45* angle once it's installed.

It's hard to tell exactly where this seat is because of the angle the picture is taken at, but I'd hazard a guess it's in the 50* range.

I have no problems with keeping an older rf'ing child at 45* if the seat fits and all the other passengers can ride safely. But as soon as you push it the smallest amount, it obviously becomes a problem. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that this is a case of the seat being over-reclined due to the line not being applied at the right angle.

I was wondering if anyone had ever actually checked (like...us... not Dorel) to see if the CA lines were indeed at 45*. When I tried the CA in my van, people here told me it looked at or close to 45*, but the line on the seat was far from level (telling me I was very upright).

seamonkeys · May 14, 2010

mommycat said:
Wow, that doea look over-reclined. Would you be able to ask your friend to take a picture more straight on, showing the whole seat (and hopefully the level line as well)? And, could she do a pic of the paper test inside the seat to "test" the level line? I was also a little taken aback by how far the shell is off the seat except right at the corners.

One more - in the FF install pic, does it look like the vehicle seat is reclined quite a bit? Or are some van seats just naturally reclined like that? ETA I think that if the vehicle seat back is reclined, it might be making the RF install look more reclined than it really is by making the angle between seat back and carseat so big.

I sent her the link to this thread, so if she sees this maybe she can take more pics (if she hasn't adjusted the seat already).

Not even looking at the vehicle seat recline, it looks like she's almost laying down parallel to the ground when RFing.

Cryssy Jane · May 14, 2010

Very interesting, it does look highly reclined to me. I don't think any of my toddlers would ride that reclined. The seats in my impreza are very squishy and in order to get level with the line child is nearly completely flat, where as at 45 degrees they are much more upright. I'll see if I can snag some comparison pictures.

~Snoopy~ · May 14, 2010

Hi everyone. I am the person who reviewed this carseat that Anneke so kindly is helping me on. I had my hubby go work on getting it in our vehicle and he was the one who came to me declaring there was no way it was going to work without the passenger seat hugging the window.

I was so confused, I googled it and saw that many others have this same probably when they are trying to line up the line. Then I saw in Safety 1st's video, this is how they have it as well. :thumbsdown:

So am I correct in knowing that I can keep it more inclined and my daughter will be safe? I was just following the level to ground line and this is exactly where it had to be. How do I measure how far up it can be when I install if with less of a recline?

~Snoopy~ · May 14, 2010

mommycat said:
Wow, that doea look over-reclined. Would you be able to ask your friend to take a picture more straight on, showing the whole seat (and hopefully the level line as well)? And, could she do a pic of the paper test inside the seat to "test" the level line? I was also a little taken aback by how far the shell is off the seat except right at the corners.

One more - in the FF install pic, does it look like the vehicle seat is reclined quite a bit? Or are some van seats just naturally reclined like that? ETA I think that if the vehicle seat back is reclined, it might be making the RF install look more reclined than it really is by making the angle between seat back and carseat so big.

I actually am not currently using the carseat as I just put it in for the review purposes but was worried about it being so low that I wasn't sure if I should leave it like that. I can take some pictures for you if you want. Including those that include the level line. What is the paper test? Oh and I will not drive it with the shell off the seat. These pictures were just taken for the review real quick. Basically to show the overall seat.

As far as the FF install pic, I'm honestly not sure if the seat is reclined or not. My hubby was installing it so I would have to ask him. I'm guessing he may have had it slightly reclined. Is it not suppose to be? I truly do want to make sure the girls are as safe as possible.

Jennifer mom to my 7 · May 14, 2010

http://carseatsite.com/videos.htm#rear-facing videos

try some of these videos. Heather uses the paper test to test the 45 degree angle, and maybe that will help you realize that your seat is more than that

mommycat · May 14, 2010

In general, being more upright for FF is better, but that is a guideline. Some vehicles require the seats to be fully upright for child restraints while some allow a specific number of click or recline (one or two, not much more, I think. The vehicle manual may help with that. Aside from the preference for being more upright safety-wise (which again, I am saying in general, I am not speaking for all seats, etc), I would think an older child might protest being too reclined. I think it looks more reclined FF than it is because she was leaning forward to look around the wings, putting her chin very close to her chest?

I guess the videos Jennifer linked to would show, but the paper test is when you fold a piece of paper edge to edge to form a triangle - this gives a 45 degree angle - and place the edge in the carseat, then see if the horizontal edge is horizontal (= 45* recline) or off from that. Not all seats are exactly 45* when aligned to the "level line" but they should't be MORE reclined.

~Snoopy~ · May 14, 2010

Jennifer mom to my 7 said:
http://carseatsite.com/videos.htm#rear-facing videos

try some of these videos. Heather uses the paper test to test the 45 degree angle, and maybe that will help you realize that your seat is more than that

Thank you so much! I am such a visual learner so this really helped!:thumbsup:

~Snoopy~ · May 14, 2010

mommycat said:
In general, being more upright for FF is better, but that is a guideline. Some vehicles require the seats to be fully upright for child restraints while some allow a specific number of click or recline (one or two, not much more, I think. The vehicle manual may help with that. Aside from the preference for being more upright safety-wise (which again, I am saying in general, I am not speaking for all seats, etc), I would think an older child might protest being too reclined. I think it looks more reclined FF than it is because she was leaning forward to look around the wings, putting her chin very close to her chest?

I guess the videos Jennifer linked to would show, but the paper test is when you fold a piece of paper edge to edge to form a triangle - this gives a 45 degree angle - and place the edge in the carseat, then see if the horizontal edge is horizontal (= 45* recline) or off from that. Not all seats are exactly 45* when aligned to the "level line" but they should't be MORE reclined.

I'm definitely still learning in all of this!

Thank you for being so kind to me. I am going to watch all of Jennifer's videos and make sure I have them correctly installed. I do think she was leaning forward in that picture to look around. She is so excited to have a new carseat that she was pretty happy.

Thanks everyone for the help! I've updated my review on it to include the information I have learned!

snowbird25ca · May 15, 2010

NannyMom said:
I was wondering if anyone had ever actually checked (like...us... not Dorel) to see if the CA lines were indeed at 45*. When I tried the CA in my van, people here told me it looked at or close to 45*, but the line on the seat was far from level (telling me I was very upright).

In the instructional video I would call the seat 45* when the line was level.

In my own vehicle, I've never had it installed line level to ground. The seat is installed ff'ing right now and there's another seat installed right next to it, so a test install wouldn't be possible without taking out both.

(While I normally wouldn't mind doing, I have tried so many combos in my car in the last few weeks trying to find something I'm completely happy with that I'm tuckered out on "experimental" moves.)

mommycat · May 17, 2010

Snoopy, thank you in turn for being so open to new information and for posting the ERF info and review of this seat so that more people will hear the message. :thumbsup:

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