No RF on United??

swtgi1982

New member
My husband is an Air Force pilot (but they still deal with the FAA). As far as I know they are FAA Regulations not recomendations and the airline can not go against what the FAA says. I would call him and ask, but he is home sick and I hate to wake him up right now.

I am very interested to find out what further info you get from United and from the FAA! I will say that even if the rules say that you can RF, flight atendants don't always know the rules and will tell you you need to turn the seat around. I personally had one tell me that. I stated that I had the FAA regulations with me and that they said I could RF. We were still at the gate and the flight attendant said they could have the agent come discuss this with me, but when my DH said go ahead and get the agent he backed off saying he would let it go b/c we were all in a hurry to get going.

that was my assumption as well.

I sent out an email as well since we are looking into travel soon and will need to know as well
 
ADS

NVMBR02

New member
Dh works for the FAA. He quickly read through the links I have to bring with me on flights and he thinks the wording sounds more like recommendations but he hasn't looked it up. His job doesn't require him to work with any of those regulations so he isn't familiar with any of them.
 

NVMBR02

New member
Do anyone have a link newer than this?


Two parts that I think go in favor of rear facing seats

A) The restraint system must be properly secured to an approved forward-facing seat or berth

and

Except as required in paragraph (c)(1) of this section, no certificate holder may prohibit a child, if requested by the child's parent, guardian, or designated attendant, from occupying a child restraint system furnished by the child's parent, guardian, or designated attendant provided--
(i) The child holds a ticket for an approved seat or berth or such seat or berth is otherwise made available by the certificate holder for the child's use;
(ii) The requirements of paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section are met;
(iii) The requirements of paragraph (b)(2)(iii) of this section are met; and
(iv) The child restraint system has one or more of the labels described in paragraphs
 

MomToEliEm

Moderator
From here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20120-87A/$FILE/AC%20120-87A.pdf
e. Under the provisions in parts 121, 125, and 135, no certificate holder may prohibit a child from using an approved CRS when the parent/guardian purchases a ticket for the child. (Certificate holders are encouraged to allow the use of empty seats to accommodate CRS. However, they are not required to allow unticketed children to occupy empty passenger seats, even if the child uses a CRS.)
In the above document, it references part 121, 125 and 135 as the regulations which are linked below (each dated 8/14/06)
Part 121
Part 125
Part 135
 

JCsMomma

New member
I've been posting on the StrollerSwap thread, and I was just coming here to ask about this because I am freaking out! We are flying United on an upcoming cross-country trip and I bought a seat for my 9-month old DD as I always have done for my kids. I have all of the FAA documents that were linked ready to print out and bring with me, but it sounds like there really isn't much I can do if they decide I can't use her infant seat?

I had posted here recently trying to figure out what seat to get for my DS to use at our destination since he's about 50 lbs @ almost 4 y/o and will be fine in the airplane seat belt. We were considering the RSTV as recommended here, but decided since we needed to purchase a new convertible for DD here shortly that we'd just buy a Radian and have it shipped to my sisters. That way DS can use it while we're there and he can also sit in it on the return flight. We thought that would be easiest and we wouldn't be spending any extra money... but not so sure now.

Any suggestions about what those of us with young infants should do? Our flight is non-refundable =( There is no way she can be a lap baby, she is super squirmy and would be hysterical. But I don't think she's even 20lbs yet, so how can I use a FF seat? Is there a seat you would recommend that I could FF her in (and she would be halfway comfortable?) if the decide not to allow me to RF her? I think I need to figure something out besides the Mico because I do not want to be stuck with a lap baby. I may have to rethink our whole stroller/carseat set up :( We planned to use the Mico on the Buzz w/BuggyBoard to be gate checked, thinking that would be the easiest combo to keep everyone contained in the airport and leave arms to carry luggage, etc.

My thing is, my DD has a ticket that cost just as much as an adult fare. Why should she not be allowed to be as safe and comfortable as any other passenger??
 

InternationalMama

New member
Do anyone have a link newer than this?

I think this has already been posted, but I always use this.

It's a very recent clarification of the rules by the FAA. It isn't clear from this that they have to let you rear face a convertible if your child fits forward facing, but they definitely would have to let you rear facing an RF-only FAA-approved infant carrier.

This doesn't sound like a "recommendation" to me, it sounds like a rule:

No operator may prohibit a child (an individual who has not reached his or her 18th
birthday) from using an approved CRS when the parent or guardian purchases a seat for the
child, the child is accompanied by a parent or guardian and the child is within the weight limits
for the CRS.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
I would absolutely tell them that you would like to see in the manual where it says you can't use a rear-facing infant seat. If they ask you to forward-face, tell them the seat does not forward-face. If they ask you to surrender the seat to be checked, ask them if they intend to compensate you for the car seat as it will be considered damaged and unsafe to use after checking it as well as for the seat you can't use. Each time, be polite. Don't be combative. Tell them that your understanding is that the FAA mandates you be allowed to use your child's car seat since you paid for a seat, that you would like to see in their manual where it says otherwise, and that this seat is ONLY approved for your child to use rear-facing. Also have the car seat manual ready. Show them where it says how to install the seat in an airplane. If she still fits her infant seat, or if you can buy or borrow a larger one she fits in, bring that instead of a convertible, so you can prove by the warnings in the manual and on the seat that it may ONLY be used rear-facing.
 

CTPDMom

Ambassador - CPS Technician
If they ask you to forward-face, tell them the seat does not forward-face. If they ask you to surrender the seat to be checked, ask them if they intend to compensate you for the car seat...

And I'd add to this to compensate you for the cost of the now unused seat that was purchased for the child!

I think this discussion is very interesting. I've written to my BIL (a Continental pilot) to ask what their policy is and is he's heard of this no rear-facing business. I'll post whatever I hear back from him.
 

JCsMomma

New member
I would absolutely tell them that you would like to see in the manual where it says you can't use a rear-facing infant seat. If they ask you to forward-face, tell them the seat does not forward-face. If they ask you to surrender the seat to be checked, ask them if they intend to compensate you for the car seat as it will be considered damaged and unsafe to use after checking it as well as for the seat you can't use. Each time, be polite. Don't be combative. Tell them that your understanding is that the FAA mandates you be allowed to use your child's car seat since you paid for a seat, that you would like to see in their manual where it says otherwise, and that this seat is ONLY approved for your child to use rear-facing. Also have the car seat manual ready. Show them where it says how to install the seat in an airplane. If she still fits her infant seat, or if you can buy or borrow a larger one she fits in, bring that instead of a convertible, so you can prove by the warnings in the manual and on the seat that it may ONLY be used rear-facing.

Thank you! Good call on making sure to bring the infant seat manual. She does still fit quite nicely in her Mico (she's a shorty :)) and it is the best combo I could configure to make the trip run smoothly.

I also got an email yesterday that Continental and United are merging by the end of the year... hopefully it's not United's policy they go with!
 

InternationalMama

New member
I would absolutely tell them that you would like to see in the manual where it says you can't use a rear-facing infant seat. If they ask you to forward-face, tell them the seat does not forward-face. If they ask you to surrender the seat to be checked, ask them if they intend to compensate you for the car seat as it will be considered damaged and unsafe to use after checking it as well as for the seat you can't use. Each time, be polite. Don't be combative. Tell them that your understanding is that the FAA mandates you be allowed to use your child's car seat since you paid for a seat, that you would like to see in their manual where it says otherwise, and that this seat is ONLY approved for your child to use rear-facing. Also have the car seat manual ready. Show them where it says how to install the seat in an airplane. If she still fits her infant seat, or if you can buy or borrow a larger one she fits in, bring that instead of a convertible, so you can prove by the warnings in the manual and on the seat that it may ONLY be used rear-facing.

I also think it's great to bring the FAA documents with you. One time when I flew the flight attendants told me that I couldn't even have my DS in the carseat during take off and landing. I said that I had documents saying that I could and they say, "Do you have them with you? Can we see them?" And they looked at them, and so did the head FA and we all ended up learning a lot. Like KQ said, just don't be combative.

I hope this isn't a new United policy and just some very confused CS reps. Certainly confused FAs are very common so it wouldn't be unreasonable to think the CS reps also get confused. I hope we hear more soon. If I were flying with United soon I would try to get something in writing from United saying I could use a rear facing seat for my child (assuming this is all a mix-up.)
 

LittlePeanut

New member
I think this has already been posted, but I always use this.

I've not seen that but I think I'll print it off and put it in with my manual should I ever need it. Thank you!

DH works for a Canadian airline and he agrees, with that wording, it's a rule and not a recommendation. He said the FAA is a governing body and all US airlines are required to abide by any rules that they make.
 

leighi123

Active member
I gly united all the time b/c we usually get free flights. So that sucks. Ds usually rides rearfacing on the plane if we are in economy plus (we usually are), so I dont have to spend the whole flight reminding him not to kick the person in front of him.

I get his passport soon and plan on flying both to hong kong and london, and I wanted him rearfacing on those flights so he will sleep!


I'd love to get on the plane with a 3yr old in a keyfit (he still fits in one) and see what they say! I'd be pretty loud about it if they told me to FF it!
 

Neatfreak

New member
It occured to me yesterday that a friend of mine, who has FOUR newborns, probably has made her summer holiday reservations from Tokyo to LAX on United. Oh man. I almost don't want to give her one more thing to be stressed out about.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
It occured to me yesterday that a friend of mine, who has FOUR newborns, probably has made her summer holiday reservations from Tokyo to LAX on United. Oh man. I almost don't want to give her one more thing to be stressed out about.

As much as you don't want to, it might be better for her to be prepared for the eventuality (printouts, script of what to say, etc.) than end up having to leave the flight because she CANNOT hold 4 newborns (even with another adult, obviously!)

Hopefully this will be resolved before then, but if the time comes close and it hasn't been, probably good to bring up.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I'd wait until we have confirmation from United. One or two representatives giving out questionable information does not mean United has made a policy change. Especially one that's not reflected on their website and goes against FAA regulations. The first representative I spoke with told me that infants go on laps. The second didn't know you could rear face a seat on the plane. They're neither trained on carseats on board, nor experts, nor likely care. Even parents rarely ask these questions. So let's wait to see what those higher up at United say.

Wendy
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
I also think we should wait to see if this is an ongoing problem-- if a few people just had a bad flight crew, or if it happens to others planning to fly soon.
 

mommycat

Well-known member
I gly united all the time b/c we usually get free flights. So that sucks. Ds usually rides rearfacing on the plane if we are in economy plus (we usually are), so I dont have to spend the whole flight reminding him not to kick the person in front of him.

I get his passport soon and plan on flying both to hong kong and london, and I wanted him rearfacing on those flights so he will sleep!


I'd love to get on the plane with a 3yr old in a keyfit (he still fits in one) and see what they say! I'd be pretty loud about it if they told me to FF it!
The kicking can be a major pain, especially if the person in front is not understanding. But as far as sleeping goes, I wouldn't worry too much about RF. Both my boys FF to Europe and back and we were able to have them reclined enough to sleep quite well.

Thanks for the reminders to not panic until we know more. Obviously if you are flying soon and don't have time to wait patiently for more info before the trip, it's hard not to worry, though. Hope we get some answers/updates soon.
 

Wiggles

New member
I've got a question that may seem silly to many of you.

From a safety standpoint (ignoring comfort), would it be enough less safe to forward face on a plane that you would refuse to take your small infant/toddler if you knew you had to forward face on the plan? Also, would the risks of injury due to 'improper installation' be bad enough if the harness were adjusted for rear-facing mode, but used forward facing on a plane that you would have to completely rethread your harness before and after the flight? Or would the fact that junior is restrained be enough?
 

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