No RF on United??

InternationalMama

New member
I just read a post on the StrollerSwap board where someone got an e-mail from United saying that United no longer allows rear facing car seats on planes!! Does anybody know anything about this? They said in their e-mail that they are not required to follow the FAA guideline to allow rear facing seats. Is that true as well? I don't know what I will do in the future if I am not allowed to fly safely with an infant even on American carriers.

ETA: That isn't exactly how they worded it about the FAA. :) I've asked for permission to repost the e-mail CS sent them.
 
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ADS

InternationalMama

New member
I just called United customer service and CS told me that NO rear facing car seats are allowed on United. So there is now no way to fly United with a child under a year old in a properly used car seat.
 

InternationalMama

New member
Ugh. I thought that the FAA guidlines were actually "rules" ...

I thought so too. I asked the CS rep if they were going against FAA guidelines since the FAA allows rear facing car seats and she became completely silent. For so long that I had to ask if she was still there. And then she asked me to hold and when she came back she said the only information she has is what she already told me, that no rear facing car seats are allowed on United flights.
 

MomToEliEm

Moderator
Is there any way she can mail you the notice stating that they cannot have rearfacing carseats installed? I would be interested to see exactly how the notice is worded. If it really does state that there cannot be any rearfacing seats, contacting someone with the FAA might be worthwhile as something just doesn't sound right about the that.
 

InternationalMama

New member
Is there any way she can mail you the notice stating that they cannot have rearfacing carseats installed? I would be interested to see exactly how the notice is worded.

Yeah, I realized my wording my first post about the FAA is *not* their wording. I was just fuming mad when I wrote it. :) I've asked for permission to repost the other person's e-mail from CS so you can see their loop hole.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
It's fine according to United's site.

Child safety seats
You may use an approved infant car seat on board the aircraft when you purchase a seat for your child. The seat must be an FAA-approved child safety seat device.

If manufactured after February 1985, the car seat should also be certified for use in aircraft. You should seat your child in the child safety seat for takeoff, landing and during turbulence.

The FAA has approved the use of a child safety restraint system for travel. The system, named “CARES”, uses an additional belt and shoulder harness that goes around the back of the seat and attaches to the lap belt. Children weighing between 22 and 44lbs may use this device. More information is available at www.kidsflysafe.com.

The following child restraint devices may not be used on board the aircraft: booster seats, belly belts which attach to adult seat belts only, and vests or harnesses which hold the infant to the chest of the adult.


http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6867,1051,00.html

Wendy
 

InternationalMama

New member
It's fine according to United's site.

I know, I checked that too before I called the United customer service.

So here's the e-mail someone (a friend of a friend) got from United:

United does care about the safety of all our passengers, especially
about the precious little ones that you travel with. The FAA recommends
standards and United frequently implements our own that go beyond the
FAA suggestions or requirements.

We will not allow rear facing car seats as we find that they can
jeopardize the baby's safety when the seat in front is reclined. We do
allow front facing car seats in all our seats except for the emergency
exit rows. Turning the seat around in some cases is still an option for
their use. Some countries such as the United Kingdom have already banned
the use of rear facing car seats.

Regards,

Jennifer M. Yeager
United Airlines Customer Relations

So they are basically saying they don't have to allow RF seats because their not allowing them is *more safe* than the FAA allowing them. This makes no sense to me. Apparently the person who got the e-mail is contacting the FAA so I hope she gets a response.
 
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erin327

Member
This is really scary! It is easy enough to avoid United Airlines. I just hope this isn't a trend that other airlines decide to follow!
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
So, are they forcing you to take your < 1 year old as a lap baby? What if you've got twins and only one parent is flying? will they be allowed to carry BOTH babies on their lap? how exactly is that parent supposed to do up their own seat belt and put seat in upright position if they are holding *two* lap babies? what if you've purchased a seat for your < 1 child? will they refund you when they force you to carry the child as a lap child because you are not allowed to put them in their seat? are they expecting you to install your child seat improperly and put it forward facing?
 

crunchierthanthou

New member
so is this clarification that pertains to rf seats not actually a rule? because I was just about to print it off before my flight with a 16 month old this weekend.

particularly this -

Discussion: No operator may prohibit a child (an individual who has not reached his or her 18th birthday) from using an approved CRS when the parent or guardian purchases a seat for the child, the child is accompanied by a parent or guardian and the child is within the weight limits for the CRS.

this-

An aft-facing CRS that cannot be installed properly because of minimal pitch (distance between seats) between rows can be moved to a bulkhead seat or a seat in a row with additional pitch.

and

An operator may have policies, based on safe operating practices that establish certain seat locations for passengers who use a CRS on a specific aircraft. However, prohibiting the use of a CRS (if a ticket has been purchased) when there are seats on the aircraft, in the same class of service, where the CRS could be used safely is not consistent with the requirements stated in parts 121, 125 and 135.
 

InternationalMama

New member
An aft-facing CRS that cannot be installed properly because of minimal pitch (distance between seats) between rows can be moved to a bulkhead seat or a seat in a row with additional pitch.

I've talked to flight attendants who interpret this as a suggestion but not a requirement. The car seat *can* be moved to the bulkhead, but they are not *required* to move it to the bulkhead.

But this part

No operator may prohibit a child (an individual who has not reached his or her 18th birthday) from using an approved CRS when the parent or guardian purchases a seat for the child, the child is accompanied by a parent or guardian and the child is within the weight limits for the CRS.

is definitely a rule and I don't see how they can prevent me from using a RF-only infant seat for my child on the plane if it is approved for use and I have a ticket.

But I guess they are relying on this

However, prohibiting the use of a CRS (if a ticket has been purchased) when there are seats on the aircraft, in the same class of service, where the CRS could be used safely is not consistent with the requirements stated in parts 121, 125 and 135.

and saying it can't be used safely??

But if it's approved for use I don't see how they can say that.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I'm calling as well. I'm actually putting together out trip to NY for this summer, and United has come up often.

The first guy I got couldn't figure out what I was asking, then told me that she would be riding on my lap. I asked to be transferred, so now I'm waiting, listening to musak.

After 10 minutes on hold I hung up.

Wendy
 

InternationalMama

New member
So, are they forcing you to take your < 1 year old as a lap baby?

I guess they are?? That's what the British do. You can't buy a plane ticket for a child who does not meet the requirements for FF (although in Britain the requirements are less).

On their website they say this:

One adult customer traveling with more than one infant must purchase an adjacent seat for each child except the first, at the applicable fare.
So I guess you couldn't travel with infant twins alone since you couldn't put one (or either) in a carseat according to their new regulations.

They clearly haven't thought this through at all. I hope it's just a big misunderstanding. But the CS rep I talked to was absolutely sure and she checked twice.

ETA: Techno G you asked
will they refund you when they force you to carry the child as a lap child because you are not allowed to put them in their seat?

This is what British Airways does. But I don't see how United could do that given the FAA policy...
 

InternationalMama

New member
The first guy I got couldn't figure out what I was asking, then told me that she would be riding on my lap.

Yeah, the CS I talked to at first said "Yes, you can gate check a rear facing car seat." :p

Maybe try e-mailing. I'd like to get it in writing for myself, but they said e-mail could take 5 days to get a response so I decided to call.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Ok, calling back. I got a lady named Karen this time. She didn't know that carseats could go rear facing on the plane. She knew at least that babies rode that way in the car. So I told her they were FAA approved to the limits of the carseat on the plane to face the rear. She said ok, and that there was no general announcement about this, so she's looking further.

She thought I was getting upset when I was just trying to tell her I've heard a rumor that United is not allowing rear facing seats anymore.

What Karen said was that travel to, from, or within the United Kingdom could not have rear facing child restraints. She said she hadn't heard that before. So I double checked that flying from Seattle to London on United meant I had to go against FAA and use the British laws (whoever their FAA is, if they have one) and she said yes. So I said I'd be flying United domestically then, but flying to the UK I'd fly someone else.

Nice lady. I may send an email to see what that answer du jour is.

Wendy
 

mommycat

Well-known member
However, prohibiting the use of a CRS (if a ticket has been purchased) when there are seats on the aircraft, in the same class of service, where the CRS could be used safely is not consistent with the requirements stated in parts 121, 125 and 135.
I think they might be looking at this as a loop hole ("it can't be used safely") but then they need to designate bulkhead rows for those RF kids and their parents, because those are "seats on the aircraft, in the same class of service, where the CRS could be used safely". Also, seats do not NEED to be reclined - they should put in a clause to disallow reclining the seatback of a seat in front of a RF CR, not ban the CRs and put kids at risk. I really hope this is a decision that the FAA will shoot down.

As to the decision to move the child to the bulkhead being a suggestion and not a requirement?
If an approved CRS, for which a ticket has been purchased, does not fit in a particular seat on the aircraft, it is the responsibility of the aircraft operator to accommodate the CRS in another seat.
To me, that sounds like they NEED to exhaust all other options, including offering that bulkhead seat if need be. :twocents:
 

InternationalMama

New member
What Karen said was that travel to, from, or within the United Kingdom could not have rear facing child restraints.

Wow, this is getting confusing and weird. As far as I understand it a flight operated by a US airline is subject to US rules even when they are flying to or from foreign countries. If the flight is operated by a British airline then they don't allow rear facing restraints even when they are flying to or from the US. How crazy that Britain's rules would be privileged on American flights even when they go against the FAA's recommendation. I'd like to hear what the FAA has to say about this. I think I'm going to try to contact some more people.

And I wish I'd gotten the name of the CS person I spoke to!
 

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