Harness or seatbelt and boosters

Cilia

New member
Since you guys always praise the Swedes for rf so long I had to ask my friends in Sweden what kind of seats they use when they finally turn their kids. One lady replied that you (me paraphrasing her) "have to use a hbb with seat belt because it is not safe to be harnessed in a five point harness ff". She even used Joel's story to make her point. According to her, Joel wouldn't have been as injured had he been ff in a hbb with seat belt because it is better to move forward slightly (with the seat belt) than to be held tight against the seat like you are with a harness. I find this very hard to believe, that a seatbelt is safer than a harness, but have to ask you guys. Are not race car drivers using harnesses?

I know there was a recent thread about this and that there were no real study to prove that harnessing is safer than seat belts, but can it really be more harmful? Can this lady really be right (yes, she is not one of my favorites :whistle:)
 
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bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
Yes, it is completely possible that she (amnd the Swedes) are right.

We don't have much data, but neck loads are a very serious concern for FFing harnessed kids. However, there is also probably some risk to boostering if the child isn't ready for a booster, so it's hard to know which is safer. For a child over about 5 years old, it is entirely possible that a properly used, well fitting booster is safER than a harnessed seat. But either way, both options are very safe, as far as we know.
 

Evolily

New member
We don't know which is safer. Therefore, most people here default to which can be used correctly. A lap/shoulder belt allows the child to move out of position, potentially leaning down, slipping the belt behind their back, etc while in a moving car. We know that a mispositioned lap/shoulder belt is dangerous. We also know that a properly installed and used 5 point harness is safe and a properly used and laps/shoulder belt is safe. We don't know which one is safER. There is some american evidence that a 5 point may be safer for children under 4 and 40 lbs.

Joel was very young (18 months). It is inconceivable that he would have been able to sit correctly in a 3 point belt, and it is also hard to believe that a booster could properly position the lap belt on such a small child, perhaps reducing neck injuries in exchange for abdominal injuries (which can be just as deadly). He would not have been properly protected. In fact, given what was on the market at the time, assuming his seat was properly used and installed, he was about as safe as a child his age and weight could get. Which is the problem- we need seats that go above 33 or 35 lbs. We now have them, although I do think the upper weight limit should be pushed up a bit higher for very heavy children.

Oh, and the race car driver scenario is flawed. They have HANS devices- their heads are secured, reducing neck load (which is the concern in the lap shoulder vs 5 point argument). Beyond that, the crash dynamics in a race car are a lot different than the ones in a vehicle, so it's a hard comparison. But a 5 point harness does spread crash forces over more of the torso and does keep the child more confined to the seat in a side impact crash.
 

Chameleon

New member
I agree completely with bobandjess99 and that is why you won't find MY children in a position to use a 5 point harness longer than absolutely necessary. My almost 5 year old has been booster training for awhile. He still rides in his FN as his main seat though until I deem him ready for full time. He actually may be ready a lot sooner than his sister was. It all depends on the child and what they are ready for though. They must be able to sit properly and that is the key.
 

mommyof3tx

New member
Hope it's ok to ask a question in this one...

If that's the case what would you recommend for a 39-40lb boy, probably actually 40-41 clothed...just turned 5 but would def sit correctly in a booster all the time? He currently rides harnessed in a GN but I had been thinking about buying just a hbb to free up a bit of room in our backseat, it's really tight now and hard for my 7yr old to buckle himself in his booster. If he (5yr old) would sit correctly 100% of the time do you think it would be better to go ahead and move him? vs what possible risk there might be harnessed
 

bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
For a 5 yo 40 lb child who would sit correctly, we have no evidence either way. PRobably, both are very safe options. I might be concerned if he was truly ready, maturity wise, and also, does he sleep a lot in the car? MY 5 yo would be in a booster, excecpt she falls asleep, and then slups over bad in a booster, , so she stays in her harness for now. But its really your choice.
 

swtgi1982

New member
This is why when I use a harness for my nephew I refuse to allow it to be untethered hoping that maybe that will help, he will be 5 next week and is like 57lbs. There is no way hr would sit properly in a booster, mainly since his parents do not make him in their car. Mainly they allow just about anything with him. He normally sits with an improperly positioned lap belt, and shoulder belt behind him, as parents have taught him this since they boostered him at 2 and shoulder belt did not fit of course so they just put it behind him. But then there were no options at the time that we knew of to harness beyond 40lbs. (I was not into this as much as I am now, but I still knew he was to young.) This is also why when m cousin (now 11) was harnessed, my aunt used the seat even though out grown height wise until my cousin outgrew the weight limit, she was tall and my aunt knew a booster was not proper at two, so she did what she could with what was available. She knowingly let her child ride in a seat that was outgrown by height since she was not yet mature enough for a booster since there were no other options. (my cousin was 4'9" at 5-7yrs old if that tells you how tall she was. her ma put her in a booster and just under 4 since she no longer could squeeze her in the harnessed seat)

She was just as car seat crazy as I am.
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
actually, there is evidence showing that children between the ages of 2 and 5 have a great incidence of injury in boosters than in 5 point harnesses. It's really only after age 5 (the age at which boosters begin fitting children well AND children are old enough to control their impulses and sit properly 100% of the time) that the line between what we KNOW and what we FEEL we know about whether harnessing is safer or not becomes blurry.

As for the Swedes, I have yet to see any actual studies, crash tests, injury data, etc, to the effect that harnessing FF is actually detrimental to the safety of children.

My apologies for typos and grammar errors - just got off work. :p
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Agreed. There is no evidence that either harnessing or boostering is safer for a child who is mature enough and large enough to use a booster properly. There is evidence that children who can't use boosters properly should be harnessed. Most new 5yos (of course there are exceptions) are not truly ready for FT booster use.
 

Maedze

New member
I must agree that the contention that Joel would have been just fine had he been in booster is about as ridiculous as the contention that kids over 1 and 20 are perfectly safe in forward facing harnessed seats.
 

Admin

Admin - Webmaster
I must agree that the contention that Joel would have been just fine had he been in booster is about as ridiculous as the contention that kids over 1 and 20 are perfectly safe in forward facing harnessed seats.

:confused: I don't think anyone is contending otherwise. :confused:

You stated that there is some contention that kids over 1 and 20 are perfectly safe in forward facing harnessed seats. There is always a danger, even to a correctly restrained child in the safest possible restraint system and vehicle.

Since you guys always praise the Swedes for rf so long I had to ask my friends in Sweden what kind of seats they use when they finally turn their kids. One lady replied that you (me paraphrasing her) "have to use a hbb with seat belt because it is not safe to be harnessed in a five point harness ff". She even used Joel's story to make her point. According to her, Joel wouldn't have been as injured had he been ff in a hbb with seat belt because it is better to move forward slightly (with the seat belt) than to be held tight against the seat like you are with a harness. I find this very hard to believe, that a seatbelt is safer than a harness, but have to ask you guys. Are not race car drivers using harnesses?

While there are certainly differences between a seatbelt and a 5-point harness child safety seat, there is a major flaw in this line of reasoning. Child safety seats move forward in a crash, too. In fact, most of them in the USA and Canada are installed with the very same seatbelt (or increasingly the flexible LATCH system). Severe injuries tend to be caused when the head strikes a part of the interior. The more closely coupled a passenger is to the vechicle, the less chance there is that that will happen. They also gain the most benefit of allowing the crushing vehicle to absorb energy.

Ultimately, if correctly restrained in a rear seating position according to the owners manuals at the time of a crash, a child has a very low risk of being seriously injured. Of course, there are always crashes severe enough to cause a fatality in any scenario or fluke conditions that can injure a child in any circumstance, as I said above.

Unfortunately, a single case study, even a tragic one, is rarely enough evidence to scientifically establish a course of action (or inaction) that can be proven to have a significant effect.
 

Jennifer mom to my 7

Well-known member

babyherder

Well-known member
I have heard that studies show children under 5 are safer in a 5 point harness than a booster. However, the only studies I know about compare children rear facing in a 5 point harness versus forward facing in a booster. So, my thinking is its not really providing the evidence we're looking for. Any studies out there comparing ff harnessing vs. booster?
 

babyherder

Well-known member
Thanks. So then why do some people here (and this question is directed at anyone who has) claim that 5 point harnesses are safer for children under 5 than a belt positioning booster? Techs here know their stuff so I now I want to know too!
 

mommycat

Well-known member
While there are certainly differences between a seatbelt and a 5-point harness child safety seat, there is a major flaw in this line of reasoning. Child safety seats move forward in a crash, too.
I don't think the argument was that installed seats don't move forward in a crash - it is the relative motion of the head and torso that is in question. I don't see a flaw in this reasoning aside from the fact that harnesses do stretch as well; but the seatbelt allows more overall motion, as in the crash tests I've seen online the torso seems to rotate slightly over the belt to follow the head, while a harness does not allow the torso to "escape" in this way. Also, aren't vehicle seatbelts stiffer, allowing less give in a crash? So while I can't say which may be safer, I do not see the major flaw in the "swedish" side of the argument.
 

Maedze

New member
Thanks. So then why do some people here (and this question is directed at anyone who has) claim that 5 point harnesses are safer for children under 5 than a belt positioning booster? Techs here know their stuff so I now I want to know too!

The question is not one of age but maturity. No three year old, no matter how mature, can use a booster correctly. There is a tiny percentage of four year olds who may be able to booster full time without problems. Most kids are between 5 and 6 before they truly can sit correctly in a booster 100% of the time.
 

mommycat

Well-known member
I would consider the 5pt safer in many cases because of the issues already raised - maturity to stay positioned, not lean out while sleeping, etc. AND couple that with the attention and discipline required from parents to enforce this at all times (which many parents/caregivers might not do, so for those families the harness, assuming they install and tighten reasonably well, may be a better choice).

In my personal case, I was thinking recently that my 5yo might be ready to go in a booster so grandma could stop having to reinstall the seat all the time. Then he got in the car at the end of the day and hung himself belly-down across the seatback (behind the headrest of the Nauti), legs sticking straight up and giggling uncontrolably, and it took me 20 minutes to settle everyone (2 kids) down and get them in their seats. And I found myself thinking how awful it would be to have a "silly" day or a sick, floppy kid (or whatever reason making him less likely that day to listen) and have only the booster available. And be stuck with the option of sitting on the side of the road until you could reason with a not-so-reasonable 5yo or driving with him out of position or trying to climb out altogether... I will be booster training him soon, but I prefer to wait on boostering full-time until the chances of them being able to respond maturely to directions (in spite of any circumstances) are a little better. I do admit it is a case by case decision though, and that for some kids who are a bit ahead in this area of development it might be a completely acceptable choice.
 

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