Can we discuss extened harnessing?

Karen

New member
And the arguments for/against it?

My children are both very average size and young so I haven't gotten to a point where it is a decision for me to make yet. But I have a friend who has a newly 4 year old (March) that is even with the top slots in the Nautilus. When this happened she started booster training. He is a well behaved child who takes it seriously. She was planning on leaving her Regent in her car until she saw how well he was doing with the booster training. Now she has moved to boostering full time. After reading some things she has come to the decision that she thinks that boostering is SAFER than a 5 point harness due to neck strain. Her 3 year old is RFing and I think she wants to try to go straight from RFing to boostering with her if the maturity is there. I don't intend on harnessing until 10 or anything, but I was planning on getting a Frontier 85 so that DS could stay harnessed until at least 6.

I know that the RFing to boostering is the way they do it in Sweden, so it interests me. I know that most of the arguments are mostly opinion, but I wanted to see if there are any studies at all or at least get most of the varying opinions in one thread.

Thanks!
 
ADS

Karen

New member
I found this which is an interesting read, but doesn't discuss forward harnessing.

I guess my main question is WHY is forward harnessing the mainstream way of restraint in the US if is isn't elsewhere?
 

Evolily

New member
Well, FFing harnessing is popular in much of the world, more often than not moving infants at or before their 1st birthday to them. Until very recently higher weight (over 40 lb) forward facing seats were incredibly rare everywhere- the US currently does have many options, but that wasn't true a few years ago.

We simply do not have much data on child restraints past age 4, because it's so recent a development.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
My personal feeling is that for younger children a properly used booster or a properly used TETHERED harnessed seat is probably a wash in terms of safety. The rub is that many kids CAN'T properly use a booster until 5-6 years of age, often well past 40 lbs. (Some are ready at 4; some aren't ready until 7. They're just the ends of the bell curve, I'd say most are somewhere between 5 1/2 and the 6th birthday and most of the rest are between the 5th birthday and 5 1/2 and between 6 and 7, the outliers being the 4 and 7 year olds.)

For older children I'd say the neck strain thing might have some merit, as would FF untethered seats.

Rear-facing of course is always safer. I'm an advocate for RFing as long as possible, ideally until booster-ready but at least until 4 when possible.
 

mamabear

New member
.... They're just the ends of the bell curve..... the outliers being the 4 and 7 year olds.)

LOL I think my kids make up that bell curve!! My 7yo leaves a lot to be desired in a booster, but her 4.5 yo sister is literally the poster child for perfect booster behavior...she even "corrects" other kids in boosters!!!

I'm really interested in the topic here....I'll keep checking in...
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
The biggest issue with waiting until 6 for full-time booster usage is that the brain synapses that govern impulse control only BEGIN developing around 5 years old. Waiting until 6 gives them some time to kick in, so to speak.
 

Maedze

New member
My personal feeling is that for younger children a properly used booster or a properly used TETHERED harnessed seat is probably a wash in terms of safety. The rub is that many kids CAN'T properly use a booster until 5-6 years of age, often well past 40 lbs. (Some are ready at 4; some aren't ready until 7. They're just the ends of the bell curve, I'd say most are somewhere between 5 1/2 and the 6th birthday and most of the rest are between the 5th birthday and 5 1/2 and between 6 and 7, the outliers being the 4 and 7 year olds.)

For older children I'd say the neck strain thing might have some merit, as would FF untethered seats.

Rear-facing of course is always safer. I'm an advocate for RFing as long as possible, ideally until booster-ready but at least until 4 when possible.


This is pretty much where I lie. I doubt, as long as the harness is tethered and correctly used, that boostering is 'safer', but I'm not sure that harnessing is substantially safer either.

I think the most important piece of the puzzle as has been noted several times, is maturity.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'd like to make clear that it's not just maturity, it's impulse control. I had an intelligent, mature 6yo who understood completely about booster safety and proper use, but she simply didn't have it in her to resist the impulse to not lean over to pick up something she dropped or twist around to see the cow in the field. She knew and understood why she shouldn't -- she knew it as soon as she did it -- but she wasn't able not to.
 

a_js

New member
The biggest issue with waiting until 6 for full-time booster usage is that the brain synapses that govern impulse control only BEGIN developing around 5 years old. Waiting until 6 gives them some time to kick in, so to speak.

This is where I'm at. Well, where DS is at.. I doubt I ever even rode in a booster ;) Anyways. We started booster training at 5.5. Now at almost 6 I let him ride in it.. but I have kept the Radian in the car, just in case.
 

bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'd like to make clear that it's not just maturity, it's impulse control. I had an intelligent, mature 6yo who understood completely about booster safety and proper use, but she simply didn't have it in her to resist the impulse to not lean over to pick up something she dropped or twist around to see the cow in the field. She knew and understood why she shouldn't -- she knew it as soon as she did it -- but she wasn't able not to.

You know, I'll jump in front of the firing squad here. *I* don't resist my impulses in the car. I turn around, I lean over and back to pick up stuff and hand it to the kids, even turn and sit sideways in my seat or pull my legs up when they get tired (not when im driving, when im riding, ,lol) and all sorts of stuff that is bad to do. I feel pretty much like a giant hypocrite when talking about kids being "emotionally ready/mature" for boosters, when frankly, 99% of the ADULTS i know do NOT meet the requirements that we want 5-6 year old kids to meet. They don't. I don't. :eek: I don't know anyone who does, honestly. I can'y sday I've ever ridden in a car with ANY one who didn't occasionally move out of place.
So, I think you have to decide what you are comfortable with, and go from there.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
I used to move out of position a lot more than I do. Now my 6 year old scolds me severely if I try! ;)
 

mommycat

Well-known member
I move around as well, but I am thinking about it now as I lean down and typically make the conscious decision to look around and make sure it appears to be safe (not doing risky manouvers etc) and then lean over and do whatever with the minimum of movement and in least amount of time. I do try not to do this knowing that my kids are watching and learning by example. I used to half climb out of my seat to reach someting in the back seat before the kids came along. I am much more aware of the risks and consequences now and would not do this anymore. I will wait for a place to pull over instead. As adults we can decide to take a risk but it is unfair to put that same level of responsibility on a young child if there is an option to it, IMO.

I am not sure how I feel about the neck load argument without seeing more concrete data. I mean, aren't most head/neck injuries for older kids and adults due to impact with vehicle interior (as opposed to no impact necessary for younger kids as stated in the linked article)? And don't boosters allow a lot more head excuriosn to occur than harnessed seats? So while the neck loads may be smaller from the motion itself, might the actual risk of injury not increase with the booster? I haven't seen anything yet showing data one way or the other, so if anyone has anything I would love to see it. I do remember this debate raging in another thread a while back with AD repeatedly saying that "experts" he knows said boosters are better, but no actual *facts* or *data* being shared.

I do know that I plan to keep my kids harnessed in the truck because there is so little room between the seats and I would rather not have them whacking their heads. I'll take the risk of somewhat increased neck loads instead. It just "feels" safer for that situation. It would be nice to *know* if that's correct.
 

Maedze

New member
I've actually gotten pretty rigid about my 'seatbelt' behavior, mostly because of what I've seen pre-CPST days.

I make an effort to snug the lap belt tight on my thighs, position the shoulder belt correctly, and adjust the seatback so the head rest is less than 4" from the back of my head. And I really don't turn around.
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
I've actually gotten pretty rigid about my 'seatbelt' behavior, mostly because of what I've seen pre-CPST days.

I make an effort to snug the lap belt tight on my thighs, position the shoulder belt correctly, and adjust the seatback so the head rest is less than 4" from the back of my head. And I really don't turn around.

ditto. If I don't model proper behaviour, are the kids going to listen? probably not.
 

Karen

New member
It just "feels" safer for that situation. It would be nice to *know* if that's correct.
This sums up the whole conversation though. People just feel differently. I "feel" like harnessing is safer, but I don't know why. I just do. I'm hoping it is a draw, that way no one is "wrong" or unsafe. BTW, my car behavior is horrible too. Right now both of my kids are RFing so they can't see me! Yikes for me safety wise and for being a role model.
 

Maedze

New member
As a paramedic, I saw injuries most often in front passengers (not so much drivers because you aren't able to wiggle as much) is severe ankle injuries (from putting the feet up on the dashboard :rolleyes:) or open femur or tib-fib fractures because people were not sitting correctly with their legs in front of them feet flat on the floor.

Imagine a grown man screaming for his mother, and think about that the next time y'all wiggle in the passenger seat.
 
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mommycat

Well-known member
Maedze, maybe you can give me your somewhat more informed opinion on something - I like to sit in the car with my legs crossed, or at least one leg tucked under the other knee. And when I say "like", most often that means incredibly hard to resist antsy, wiggly, makes my legs and lower back ache unless I do this urge to sit this way, so it's not like I can just lightly decide that I will choose not to do this. I have often wonered if this is equally as unsafe as putting your feet or knees up on the dash (which I used to do when I was a dumb kid and would never dream of doing now). What's your take on this? And then taking this thought further, do you let the kids cross their legs in the car or put them on the back of the vehicle seat, either RF or FF?
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
for me, it's about size and maturity... which is all dependent upon the individual child... I want them big enough to fit the booster, for the seatbelt to fit THEM IN THE BOOSTER... and for them to be mature enough (and physically developed properly enough... aka... Mr. Damian was fine other than his scoliosis, mild as it was, before age 6.5, but couldn't stay put through the whole ride if he fell asleep, which he did often, so thank goodness he outgrew the scoliosis when he outgrew the Regent, or he would have been in an 86-Y until he outgrew it) not to reach for things unless given permission (aka... I pull over, stop the car, and say... okay, it's safe... and my son unbuckles, retrieves his sister's beloved stuffed animal as she is in her harness at the time, then gets back and rebuckles, and I put the car in gear, pull back out of the parking lot, and go back into traffic.... that's fine... doing so at a red light... NOT fine.... so do I even let my 6yr old think of retrieving things at all... no... and she knows that... but until she was mature enough to know she wasn't ready for ANY moving... (she knows when she's 8, I'll let her get permission when it's safe), I wouldn't have her in a booster.
 

SuperSafeMama

New member
For me, it isnt about maturity/size etc. It is 100% about safety! How would my child be most safe? I drive a 1996 Escort. My belts DO NOT lock. I need my children in a harness as long as I can keep them that way.

I put DD in a backless booster at 3 because she met the height/weight limit for it. I had no formal education about carseats at the time really.

Now she is in a GN with the harness and she is 7.5 years old! She still has some room to grow in the harness straps as well and I will keep her it in as long as I can.

My son went forward facing at 12 months and then went in to a GN (also forward facing) as well.

My son is now rear facing at 2.8 and I will keep him this way as long as I can as well.

Since I have gained the knowledge that is so vast here, I will try to make the best choices that I can.

I feel that my daughter is safer in a harness vs. the belt. I think that we have to just step back and look at what is the most safe and not what the child can fit into.
 

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