Car seat use w/o shoulder straps for medical issue

safeinthecar · Apr 5, 2010

The problem with not having the shoulder harness on his shoulder in a typical rfing seat, is that as the carseat rocks toward the front of the vehicle in a crash, the child will ramp up and out of the seat.

I agree that the Euro shield seat is an option, but I would also consider looking into one of the big, rfing seats with a footprop like the Britax Mult-Tech or the Atka Duo-Logic. These seats have a kickstand that goes down to the footwell of the car to prevent rotation and allow shoulder straps to be above the shoulders.

murphydog77 · Apr 5, 2010

One thing I'd like to mention is harness geometry. I am not special needs trained, so I feel a bit out of my element here, but I do agree that using a harness slot above the shoulders sounds like the best plan of action. However, in doing so, it's also important to keep in mind the geometry of the lap belt since that's essentially what will be holding the OP's ds down in the seat in a crash. Some harnesses have long crotch buckle straps which will bring the lap belts up high on the stomach rendering those seats relatively useless in this situation, IMO. Other seats, like the Britax seats, have a short crotch buckle strap which brings the lap belts low across the thighs and will hold the child down in the seat (keep him from ramping up).

OP, I hope you're feeling more hope this evening. That's what's so great about our forum--there are lots of people with lots of ideas! Doctors, especially specialists, tend to need a lot of training when it comes to safe transportation. I'm currently working on my city's peds and it sounds like next I may need to work on our specialists. :thumbsup:

Kat_Momof3 · Apr 6, 2010

I agree, Heather... I understand the doctor was offering the best option he knew... but clearly his practice and/or hospital or whoever is in charge of educating him on these options and stuff needs to be bringing in qualified techs to do so...

But on the other hand, I really feel that the only words out of his mouth should have been... "I honestly am not sure what would be both safe and work for this type of problem... contact Safekids at ______"... and have a card with the info to get someone who knows about special needs seats and such things...

Sometimes we have to know our limitations of knowledge and experience and defer to someone who does... much like any primary care doc would defer to a specialist.

ketchupqueen · Apr 6, 2010

I too think a shield seat like the Kiddy or Recaro Start with shield is an excellent choice (and the Kiddy even comes in lots of fun prints.

) There's no chance of his shoulder being pinned in it but it should keep him safe in a crash (their crash test videos are impressive!) This is a situation where I as a parent would definitely import a seat, and maybe have the doctor write a note since that would seem to help if you're ever "called" on having an imported seat (likely, no one would notice or care, but just in case.)

There is a process to get a waiver from NHTSA for medical need to import a foreign seat, but it takes a long time and very few are granted. I think probably, personally, I'd make a parental decision to use the seat that seems safest without a waiver.

soygurl · Apr 6, 2010

ketchupqueen said:
I too think a shield seat like the Kiddy or Recaro Start with shield is an excellent choice (and the Kiddy even comes in lots of fun prints. ) There's no chance of his shoulder being pinned in it but it should keep him safe in a crash (their crash test videos are impressive!) This is a situation where I as a parent would definitely import a seat, and maybe have the doctor write a note since that would seem to help if you're ever "called" on having an imported seat (likely, no one would notice or care, but just in case.)

There is a process to get a waiver from NHTSA for medical need to import a foreign seat, but it takes a long time and very few are granted. I think probably, personally, I'd make a parental decision to use the seat that seems safest without a waiver.

:yeahthat:
Honestly, in THIS situation, especially with the OPs DH currently IN Europe (?), I think a booster w/ shield seat is the "only" option! Even if her DH wasn't in a position to easily get a seat like this, I would still suggest taking to (c-s.o member) adventuredad and importing one of those seats, or contacting one of the members on her who has one to see about possibly borrowing it.

The only thing that would change my suggestion is if money was a MAJOR issue, and even still I think the idea of using a RF seat with a very tall shell, and harness straps above the shoulders is the second best option (and still not a particularly inexpensive option at that).

OP, please keep us updated! We'd love to see pics of the shield seat if you end up going with that (even if you blur faces, etc.). :thumbsup:

safeinthecar · Apr 6, 2010

soygurl said:
:yeahthat:
Honestly, in THIS situation, especially with the OPs DH currently IN Europe (?), I think a booster w/ shield seat is the "only" option!

A high weight rfing seat with a footprop is also something a DH currently in Europe would be able to easily pick up and is a second viable option.

The shield seat would eliminate the harness on his shoulder during normal driving, but I wonder, in a crash, would it cause more damage for his arms to fling forward and pull away from his body than for them to flex in toward his body as he presses back into a rfing seat.

skaterbabs · Apr 6, 2010

safeinthecar said:
A high weight rfing seat with a footprop is also something a DH currently in Europe would be able to easily pick up and is a second viable option.

The shield seat would eliminate the harness on his shoulder during normal driving, but I wonder, in a crash, would it cause more damage for his arms to fling forward and pull away from his body than for them to flex in toward his body as he presses back into a rfing seat.

I agree - plus I would be concerned about even more stress on the still-immature spinal column.

soygurl · Apr 6, 2010

safeinthecar said:
A high weight rfing seat with a footprop is also something a DH currently in Europe would be able to easily pick up and is a second viable option.

The shield seat would eliminate the harness on his shoulder during normal driving, but I wonder, in a crash, would it cause more damage for his arms to fling forward and pull away from his body than for them to flex in toward his body as he presses back into a rfing seat.

:shrug-shoulders: I see your point, but I stand by my opinion. When we get right down to it, we don't know what would be best in an accident. The possibility of him ramping up the shell of a larger RF seat seems more likely to cause harm to his shoulder IMO. I'm thinking along the likes of what Heather was saying about hip strap belt geometry and imagining his shoulder actually impacting the RF straps in a crash. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I don't see how a foot prop would totally prevent ramping up...

I think if it were me, I'd be more comfortable with using a seat I KNEW had low hip straps, with the shoulder straps positioned high. :twocents:

I also think the probability getting into an accident which might further damage his shoulder, vs. the likelihood of straps regularly touching his shoulder (and doing damage) is worth taking into consideration. (uh... not sure that makes sense, but I can't figure out how to word it better.

)

*Off to do more research on RF seats with foot props...

*

ketchupqueen · Apr 7, 2010

When I watch the crash test videos from Kiddy, it seems to me that the arms are more contained in a regular FF harness, because the shield goes so far up the torso? They don't do as much "flinging" as a FF harness seat, to my eyes, though I could be mistaken. :twocents:

Pixels · Apr 7, 2010

soygurl said:
:shrug-shoulders: I see your point, but I stand by my opinion. When we get right down to it, we don't know what would be best in an accident. The possibility of him ramping up the shell of a larger RF seat seems more likely to cause harm to his shoulder IMO. I'm thinking along the likes of what Heather was saying about hip strap belt geometry and imagining his shoulder actually impacting the RF straps in a crash. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I don't see how a foot prop would totally prevent ramping up... I think if it were me, I'd be more comfortable with using a seat I KNEW had low hip straps, with the shoulder straps positioned high. :twocents:

With American/Canadian RF seats, during the crash phase, the top of the seat dumps down toward the floor. It can rotate as far as 70 degrees (almost flat). When the seat is rotated so far, a lot of the restraining force is placed on the top of the shoulders and/or lap straps.

A footprop nearly eliminates downward rotation. Add in the fact that European seats can be installed more upright (up to 5 degrees, I believe), and while you won't completely eliminate ramping up, you certainly reduce it by a large amount.

jeminijad · Apr 7, 2010

Unregistered said:
oh ladies! thank you thank you thank you!

My DH is currently abroad for a week and I can make him carseat shop! Those foam seats without the shoulder strap would be ideal for our situation!

And I don't want anyone to think that I don't believe in the merits of tight shoulder straps to prevent ejection, because I do, I really do. It's just, so horrible to think that something I do to keep my son safe could hurt him in the long run. I'm sorry, it's just hard

And I guess that's what my tech meant with the law is loose? An imported seat?

I hope your DH can get either the Euro shield booster, or something with a footprop... I am not going to be very helpful as I am not a tech, but I wanted to tell you I am impressed with your concern for transporting him safely in the car. I have a coworker whose child has a BPI, a similar issue, and she is driving around very unsafely because of it. You have a fortunate little boy!

CTPDMom · Apr 7, 2010

I don't have any suggestions beyond what's already been offered, but I'll say that if it were my child I'd borrow or buy a seat other than an EFTA (one with actual harness slots and a tall shell), keep him rear-facing, move the harness to the slots closest to but just above his shoulders. With a taller shelled seat, he wouldn't ramp all the way out of the seat and imo that seems to be the safest and most immediate of the options offered.

One note about being 'loose' about the law. There isn't a police officer I know who would ticket a parent for having a child in a misused seat for a medical reason if they have a doctor's note. And even if an officer were to issue a ticket, any reasonable court would see that there few options when it comes to transporting a child with an injury that interferes with the normal use of a harnessed car seat or booster. So the law is the last thing I'd worry about.

Hope you find a solution that works for you!

soygurl · Apr 7, 2010

Pixels said:
With American/Canadian RF seats, during the crash phase, the top of the seat dumps down toward the floor. It can rotate as far as 70 degrees (almost flat). When the seat is rotated so far, a lot of the restraining force is placed on the top of the shoulders and/or lap straps.

Yes, I am well aware of basic RF crash dynamics.

Pixels said:
A footprop nearly eliminates downward rotation. Add in the fact that European seats can be installed more upright (up to 5 degrees, I believe), and while you won't completely eliminate ramping up, you certainly reduce it by a large amount.

Bolded part is my point. I haven't seen many (any

...) crash test videos of RF+foot prop seats; but in the (much circulated) braced RF seat crash test (which I imagine is quite similar in function to a foot prop. more so than an ARB or RF tether, though aussie style is prob. closest?) about the only movement the child has is ramping up. Sure it's not a lot of movement, but it would be more movement with the straps placed above the child's shoulders, and still more if the geometry of the hip straps are high on this particular child (no way to check it out in advance with an imported seat).

I'm not trying to argue (just trying to understand), but am I mistaken in imagining that crash forces not absorbed by the seat, is then transferred to and absorbed by the child. Namely, tops of the child's shoulders in this case. (Maybe I'm trying to apply ride-down theory to an incorrect situation?

)

In any case, it seems to me, that according to this child's doctor, the main concern is any pressure on top of the child's shoulders. Having RF shoulder straps placed above the child's shoulders would reduce the pressure, but probably not eliminate it. Any amount of ramping up in a crash would likely result in an impact of the child's shoulders into the top of the shoulder straps. This seems like the worst possible scenario to me.

Given the option to get a restraint that has no regular contact to the shoulder it still seems like the only viable choice. Though if a shield seat was NOT an option, I would suggest a britax convertible, given it's known low hip straps and ability to RF tether aussie style.

We may just have to agree to disagree. :thumbsup:

ketchupqueen · Apr 7, 2010

I also take into account the possibility of a rear-end crash. In a rear-end crash, we know rear-facing is safe-- but still, for this particular child, if rear-facing in a seat with straps above the shoulders, it would behave much like if he were forward-facing in a frontal impact, pressure on the shoulders. In a shield seat, there would STILL not be downward pressure/compression on his shoulders whether in a rear-end, side-impact, or frontal-impact crash.

safeinthecar · Apr 7, 2010

soygurl said:
When we get right down to it, we don't know what would be best in an accident.

I didn't say I knew which would be best in a crash, I asked the mom which crash dynamic would be more likely to be better for her child. I don't know very much about this child's medical condition, but I clearly recall the poster with the same medical condition mentioning that someone jerking her bad arm would cause severe damage.

soygurl · Apr 7, 2010

safeinthecar said:
I didn't say I knew which would be best in a crash, I asked the mom which crash dynamic would be more likely to be better for her child. I don't know very much about this child's medical condition, but I clearly recall the poster with the same medical condition mentioning that someone jerking her bad arm would cause severe damage.

Gotcha! :thumbsup: No offense intended.

TXAggieTech · Apr 7, 2010

If you do decide to have your husband purchase a seat in Europe one of the versions is the Romer Vario, it was the Britax Laptop when sold in the US. You can do a Google image search to see what it looks like.

However, I think I would want to try out different rear facing seats first to see if you could find a more acceptable fit. Good luck!

Maedze · Apr 7, 2010

TXAggieTech said:
If you do decide to have your husband purchase a seat in Europe one of the versions is the Romer Vario, it was the Britax Laptop when sold in the US. You can do a Google image search to see what it looks like.

However, I think I would want to try out different rear facing seats first to see if you could find a more acceptable fit. Good luck!

I wouldn't suggest that particular seat for a one year old...I'd rather see a fully shelled shield seat, both for comfort and side impact protection.

ketchupqueen · Apr 7, 2010

Maedze said:
I wouldn't suggest that particular seat for a one year old...I'd rather see a fully shelled shield seat, both for comfort and side impact protection.

I concur.

TXAggieTech · Apr 7, 2010

ketchupqueen said:
I concur.

Me too. The Vario has a high back booster that it can be used with for the black cover models. Or the booster can be used alone. Or the Vario can be used alone.

None are the best option for a not quite 2YO, hopefully she can find a rearfacing seat that will work for her.

Car seat use w/o shoulder straps for medical issue

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