More info on SuperLATCH

Pixels · Apr 2, 2010

From an email from SKJP:

With SuperLATCH, seatbelts are no longer required for installations. It's a big step for child seat safety and a bold step for Radian. How did we test for this? Radian was installed with a SuperLATCH lower strap, no top tether and was NCAP crash tested with an 80 lb dummy. The crash test forces did not exceed the dynamic strength requirements for vehicle anchors. In simplier terms, not only do Radians with SuperLATCH meet and exceed government standards, they passed the more rigorous NCAP standards.

They installed with lower anchors only and did NCAP testing (5 mph faster, approximately twice the force required by FMVSS 213 testing). The forces from the Radian were less than the minimum strength required for lower anchors.

They did note elsewhere in the email that this applies only to vehicles manufactured on or after September 1, 2005. The requirements for vehicle lower anchor testing changed on that date, and vehicles manufactured before then may not be strong enough to hold.

thepeach80 · Apr 2, 2010

I just wish the vehicle manufacturers would've reflected the new testing w/ new anchor weights.

trippsmom · Apr 2, 2010

thepeach80 said:
I just wish the vehicle manufacturers would've reflected the new testing w/ new anchor weights.

I could see where they wouldn't want to open that up b/c other carseat mfc's. The RN is the only seat w/ superLATCH which is new webbing and connectors as well as a seat designed to take that force at that spot in the belt path which is less area than that covered by seatbelt webbing.

Just my thoughts.

I'd definitelty at least like to see 65# thouugh... So many seats these days go to 65# and so few parents read or know about LATCH weight limits that don't meet those of the seat. I just had the covo w/ a mom not wanting a seatbelt install w/ her GN for a 53# child in a Taurus.

SafeDad · Apr 2, 2010

The question is, what happens in real cars? Are the anchors in all, most or even some of the models going to be just as sturdy as those on the sled? Every vehicle varies in design, sometimes even within different trim levels in the same model.

Ultimately, do you trust Sunshine Kids for your child? Would you accept the liability to tell another parent to go by their recommendation rather than that of the vehicle manufacturer?

I hope Super LATCH pushes the manufacturers to finally do something rather than just talk about it. Until they actually do, it's one more piece of confusion for the parent, no matter how much time, research, testing and effort went into it.

Pixels · Apr 2, 2010

CPSDarren said:
The question is, what happens in real cars? Are the anchors in all, most or even some of the models going to be just as sturdy as those on the sled? Every vehicle varies in design, sometimes even within different trim levels in the same model.

They measured the force on the lower anchors, applied by the Radian with an 80 pound dummy. The force readings were lower than the strength requirement of vehicle anchors. So yes, anchors in real cars will be at least strong enough to hold, unless the vehicle is not in compliance with FMVSS 225.

They didn't just put it on a sled, crash test it, then look at the sled and see that the anchors were still attached. They actually measured the forces applied.

LISmama810 · Apr 2, 2010

Question in a similar vein: How do we know our cars are indeed FMVSS225-compliant? Are anchors ever actually tested, or do we just take the manufacturers' word for it?

SafeDad · Apr 2, 2010

Pixels said:
They measured the force on the lower anchors, applied by the Radian with an 80 pound dummy. The force readings were lower than the strength requirement of vehicle anchors. So yes, anchors in real cars will be at least strong enough to hold, unless the vehicle is not in compliance with FMVSS 225.

They didn't just put it on a sled, crash test it, then look at the sled and see that the anchors were still attached. They actually measured the forces applied.

And what did the vehicle manufacturer, the designer of the anchors, do? Certainly they designed and tested it to meet federal standards, hopefully with a margin of error, too. Even so, if they rate it differently, you are putting a huge amount of faith into a child restraint manufacturer who tells you differently.

Pulses are funny things. An NCAP pulse on a sled test theoretically mimics what a car seat would see in a vehicle undergoing an NCAP test. But what type of car? or SUV? or Bus? What's the standard? There are many variables in how you test that could easily make huge differences in the results. When a dynamic pulse is applied to something, you can throw around all sorts of numbers, peaks, averages, total energy to name a few. And that's quite different from a static pull, too.

Sunshine Kids has certainly tested for something. Did they test for the right thing? Did they test sufficiently to tell a parent to ignore what the manufacturer of the vehicle says? It's possible, but I certainly wouldn't put someone else's child to the test, even if I had enough faith to do it for my own child. Personally, I'd use the seatbelt until such time that we have a standardized test pulse and consensus from manufacturers.

Pixels · Apr 2, 2010

LISmama810 said:
Question in a similar vein: How do we know our cars are indeed FMVSS225-compliant? Are anchors ever actually tested, or do we just take the manufacturers' word for it?

I assume that NHTSA does compliance testing, though I don't know. The same thing could be said about any other aspect of vehicle-related FMVSS regulations. There's a standard for seatbelt strength. Is that ever actually tested? I don't know. I certainly hope so.

SafeDad · Apr 2, 2010

In addition to standards and compliance, seatbelts are also routinely tested in both NHTSA NCAP and IIHS crash tests in almost every vehicle sold.

Clearly, the NHTSA and TC are doing research with carseats in vehicles while they undergo crash tests. Maybe the IIHS is, too. Perhaps they could at least be putting some 65-85 pound dummies in some these seats, use them with LATCH and see what happens! While it's not fair to speculate on the results for a particular seat, it might give us some information on whether or not the LATCH anchors are up to it in general.

Judi · Apr 2, 2010

Until the car manufacturers state that limit, I can't do it.

safeinthecar · Apr 2, 2010

Judi said:
Until the car manufacturers state that limit, I can't do it.

I can't either. The way I understand the dynamic anchor strength standard, the standard applies to the ANCHOR HARDWARE but does not take into account what is going on with the vehicle body all around that hardware. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, IYKWIM.

If the cannery is labeling the peaches pesticide free when the farmer who grew them swears they aren't, who are you going to believe?

carseatcoach · Apr 2, 2010

I can't do it either for the reasons stated above, and also because I don't have to. Carseats can be installed with seatbelts. There's no need to push the limits of LATCH.

ETA that there are situations where there are clear benefits to pushing limits -- 32" RFing height limit on many Canadian seats, top tether over recommended weight, etc. While it's not my decision to make for other parents, I'd do it for my own child and I'd probably (consciously or not) make my thoughts clear in my explanation to other parents. But this? No.

Genevieve · Apr 2, 2010

It would solve A LOT of issues for me if I choose to use the SL models with LATCH above my vehicles 48lb limit. They are completely incompatible FF in my captain's chairs, but I really like the seats. So far, I just haven't decided whether to take the risk and hearing that many techs wouldn't do it doesn't make the decision any easier.

Pixels · Apr 2, 2010

safeinthecar said:
I can't either. The way I understand the dynamic anchor strength standard, the standard applies to the ANCHOR HARDWARE but does not take into account what is going on with the vehicle body all around that hardware. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, IYKWIM.

The testing is not just the anchor itself, but the vehicle etc as well. They take a completely assembled vehicle and test the whole thing. They attach a child restraint mock-up to the lower anchors and pull. They are pulling on the anchors and everything that the anchors are attached to.

safeinthecar · Apr 2, 2010

Pixels said:
The testing is not just the anchor itself, but the vehicle etc as well. They take a completely assembled vehicle and test the whole thing. They attach a child restraint mock-up to the lower anchors and pull. They are pulling on the anchors and everything that the anchors are attached to.

But a static pull does not duplicate the car crumpling. Wouldn't the force of the crash transfer through the body of the vehicle, especially in unibody cars, in the opposite direction of the pull on the anchors?

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