Shocked at Australian rules re: RF and FF

msg221

Well-known member
Last night I was on my FB page and saw that my cousin's wife posted photos of her nearly 6 month-old great nephew. They live in Australia. One of the photos was of him asleep in his car seat. I was horrified when I saw how loose the harness straps were on him (they were off his shoulders!). It also appeared that he was in the forward facing position. I immediately sent her a message back with my concerns about how he was restrained. She replied and said she checked with her niece, the baby's mother, who mentioned that she had recently turned him forward facing because he was fussing and crying so much rear facing!

When my cousin's wife checked on the Queensland Transport Authority's web site, it does in fact allow 6 month-olds to ride forward facing!! I was horrified when I read it for myself! I can't believe this. She did speak to her niece about tightening the harness straps on him. I am going to send her another e-mail back with all of the information I can find on keeping him rear facing! I cannot believe they allow infants that young to be turned forward facing and I cannot believe how different the regulations are from one country to another! There is Sweden who keep children rear facing to 4 years old and then Australia who allows forward facing at 6 months!
 
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ADS

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
That's normal in Australia, England, and much of Europe. In fact, a lot of rear facing seats only go to 9 kg, which is about 20 pounds. So between six and nine months babies go forward facing.

There's a lot of educating to be done, that is for sure. :)

Wendy
 

msg221

Well-known member
Well, I suppose if their car seats don't have higher weight limits for rear facing, then there isn't a whole lot they can do.

I was reading another article on new legislation that will go into effect in Western Australia regarding child restraints and it still doesn't seem safe enough. For example, they will allow children 4-7 years old to sit in the front seat if the seats in the back are already occupied by younger children in restraints! And 7 year-olds will be permitted to use adult seat belts? Yes, I do think they still need a lot of education on child passenger safety. I just cannot fathom forward facing a 6 month-old!
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Australia pioneered the use of top tethers for cars and car seats 30+ years ago, and when they are used, evidently head and neck injury rates aren't too, too bad, so they must still be sticking with 'what works'... here's an interesting (long!) article about it.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7305281/Lessons-From-Australia
I do think they could take a lesson from the Swedes (rearface longer) and Germans (booster to age 12 or almost 5 feet), or the US (we have a little of the best from all worlds :cool:)
 

featherhead

Well-known member
Australia pioneered the use of top tethers for cars and car seats 30+ years ago, and when they are used, evidently head and neck injury rates aren't too, too bad, so they must still be sticking with 'what works'... here's an interesting (long!) article about it.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7305281/Lessons-From-Australia
I do think they could take a lesson from the Swedes (rearface longer) and Germans (booster to age 12 or almost 5 feet), or the US (we have a little of the best from all worlds :cool:)

I was talking to my SIL the other day about her dd, who is tiny (2 years, 23? lbs, 35 inches). We were talking about what seat she would get next since she is expecting a baby. I mentioned that boosters actually have a 40 lb limit here (Canada), which she didn't know. I also mentioned that our law in Manitoba only requires children to be in boosters till 5 years and 50 lbs (though of course I mentioned kids need them much longer than that). She was very shocked at that because she's from Germany and they are in boosters till 12 there:thumbsup:
 

lenats31

New member
Australia pioneered the use of top tethers for cars and car seats 30+ years ago, and when they are used, evidently head and neck injury rates aren't too, too bad, so they must still be sticking with 'what works'... here's an interesting (long!) article about it.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7305281/Lessons-From-Australia
I do think they could take a lesson from the Swedes (rearface longer) and Germans (booster to age 12 or almost 5 feet), or the US (we have a little of the best from all worlds :cool:)

What is "interesting" is that all other countries in the modern world where tethered FF seats are videly available (incl. EU) RF is 5 times safer - and has been for years. Rearfacing seats (Type F restraints) are infact written into the standards in Australia. This means that car seat manufactorers there are allowed to make rearfacing seats to 40 lbs. The Problem is that there is just no market for them. Who in their right mind would create a seat from scratch if there was no market for it? Creating a completely new seat is way too exspensive for that

I know of a couple of mothers in Australia (online boards) who seem to think that top tethers and FF is absolutely fine and that RF past 9 or 10 months is the way to go and that larger RF seats aren´t needed "just get a tethered seat and your child will be as safe as ever in an FF seat" ..... NOT! One of them stated that the USA and Canada support this (transporting young babies FF in a tethered seat) recently:eek:. Ofcause there was only one answer to that "NO".

Lena
 

kidnurse

Active member
I just had to throw this in, since I noticed the OP is from AZ, and I just moved from Az after living there for 10 yrs. As I understand the seatbelt and car seat laws in Arizona, unless they have changed since the last news report I saw on it. You have to buckle as many kids in as you have seat belts, after that you can pile em' on in where ever you can fit them and it is not illegal for them to be unrestrained. Also, in Az you can drive around with your kids in the back of a pick-up truck, but not your dog. :confused: :eek: :confused:

:thumbsdown:
 

Qarin

New member
Looks like Arizona requires car seats for ages 4 and under, and has no front seat limitations; as well, it has quite a few exemptions.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00907.htm

The seat belt law does require that the seat belt be worn and be "properly adjusted", which could arguably mean that a 5yo for whom the seat belt could not be properly adjusted (that'd be basically all of them) would not be following that section without a booster seat. I doubt, unfortunately, that it's ever enforced that way.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00909.htm
 

swtgi1982

New member
I just had to throw this in, since I noticed the OP is from AZ, and I just moved from Az after living there for 10 yrs. As I understand the seatbelt and car seat laws in Arizona, unless they have changed since the last news report I saw on it. You have to buckle as many kids in as you have seat belts, after that you can pile em' on in where ever you can fit them and it is not illegal for them to be unrestrained. Also, in Az you can drive around with your kids in the back of a pick-up truck, but not your dog. :confused: :eek: :confused:

:thumbsdown:

Yea do not even get me started on AZ! A store clerk told my FIL over a year ago, that the NBB he was buying was fine for my DD who was only two at the time going on three! (She is still rear facing people!):whistle:

He added the disclaimer that "it is perfectly legal" um maybe it was there, but not in My WORLD! back here in MI! Where it would have been used in their van when back home! Needless to say the lovely purchase is sitting unopened in their closet! DD will not be using it for a while! I did allow them this year to buy a HBB for her for spring as she is four and nearing 40lbs, maybe this sumer she will hit it I dunno. She is 35-36lbs any given day. Also they rarely take her so no big deal I will just give them my seat if needed.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Results from Australia and other countries provide a stark contrast to places like Sweden. How can they possibly turn kids FF at 6 or 9 months and not see a rash of serious injuries or fatalities? Maybe it's because they have better seats? Maybe they generally know how to restrain their kids better? Maybe they don't drive drunk as much? Maybe they don't have as many big trucks and suvs that crush smaller cars? Maybe it just doesn't matter as much as we think?

It's because of variables like these and many others that vary from country to country and study to study that make it difficult draw conclusions. Would we see the same low fatality rates as Sweden if we got everyone to keep kids rear-facing to age 4 or older? Or, would we see no difference if we just said it's OK to turn kids front facing at 6-9 months? I wish we knew the answers.
 

lenats31

New member
Results from Australia and other countries provide a stark contrast to places like Sweden. How can they possibly turn kids FF at 6 or 9 months and not see a rash of serious injuries or fatalities? Maybe it's because they have better seats? Maybe they generally know how to restrain their kids better? Maybe they don't drive drunk as much? Maybe they don't have as many big trucks and suvs that crush smaller cars? Maybe it just doesn't matter as much as we think?

It's because of variables like these and many others that vary from country to country and study to study that make it difficult draw conclusions. Would we see the same low fatality rates as Sweden if we got everyone to keep kids rear-facing to age 4 or older? Or, would we see no difference if we just said it's OK to turn kids front facing at 6-9 months? I wish we knew the answers.


Judging from the ladies that I know there and some research papers that I have read about restraints in Australia, restraint misuse of all sorts and incorrect installed seats are quite high - about the same as Europe and North America. Australia has a different way of approaching things like this. Instead of increasing RF limits, they alter the limits from mass to height and age. restraints must have a maximum height indicator, head supports are made higher now. So RF restraints only to 12 kg (25/26 lbs) and roughly 80 cm,which is about the height of a 12 month old baby.

I am sure that head and neck injuries would be greatly reduced in both Europe and North America if the restraint misuse and incorrect installation were eliminated or hardly exsisted. That´s the Australian approach. So instead of making new restraints and recommend RF, they have changed the current set of restraints.

Europe uses Q dummies now when child restraints are tested. These dummies read the loads on the head and neck among others. EU restraints are tested for frontal, side, rear impacts as well as rollover (inverted), when being tested to pass the ECE R regulations. Frontal impact is 50 km/h (35mph). I think side impact is 25 km/h. But when going through consumer testing these numbers are different. Then it is 64 km/h and 71 km/h for frontal impact 25 and 28 for side impact. Most FF harnessed restraints in Europe are well within the limit and so are rated as very good or good. This also counts for those without a top tether strap or the footprop in front of them.

Frontal impacts count for the majority of accidents in Sweden. In Denmark (where I am) it is side impact accidents. A direct comparison of RF and FF harnessed restraints in the EU was made in 2006. It showed that RF was remarkably safer in side-impacts as well.

One of the Aussie mothers recently wrote that "at the end of the day,there is still going to be idiots that do not restrain their children correctly". I think she is right.

Editted to write that, the main difference in Aussie testing of seats and EU testing is that Aussie harnessed seats, all of which have a 40 lbs weight limit are tested at 56 km (roughly 40mph) with a 22 kg (45lbs) test dummy for frontal inmpact and I think it is 25 km/h for side impact.

EU restraint to 40 lbs are tested with a 15 kg test dummy (roughly 35 lbs) at 64 km/h as well as 71 km/h in the frontal test. It is 50 km/h for ECE R testing.

EU has a third kind of test, which is called the T-Plus test. This is a test carried out in Sweden. Unlike the previous T-test, this is not mandatory. Car seat manufactorers can submit any seat they like to this test. It meassures the loads on the head, neck upper spinal cord area. The upper limits in this test are MUCH lower than those meassured by consumer testing facilities such as ADAC in germany and the ECE R testing. So far only the rearfacing seats have passed this test. This test was previously called T-test, which was mandatory in sweden until the EU forced the Swedes to dump it, as it kept companies from selling a lot of their seats in Sweden.
lena
 
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niccig

New member
Yep and it's why my parents gave me a hard time when we visited when DS was RF. He RF until 3. I took our seat on the plane to use there. Then he was FF in the same seat until 5 years old in their car. All their friend's grandkids were in boosters - Australia does have a harness like the ez-on to use with boosters and top tether, I saw people using those a lot. On our next trip, he will be 6 years old, and I'm taking a turbo booster that I will leave with them for future trips. He'll fit in that for a few years as a high back and then a no back booster. They've since learned to not say anything about car seats, as they get a lecture on best practice.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
I was reading another article on new legislation that will go into effect in Western Australia regarding child restraints and it still doesn't seem safe enough. For example, they will allow children 4-7 years old to sit in the front seat if the seats in the back are already occupied by younger children in restraints! And 7 year-olds will be permitted to use adult seat belts?

Same as some US states.

(If all rear seats are occupied, what is the alternative besides front seat?)
 

lenats31

New member
This is a video that I found a long time ago.


It is an Australian Child restraint expert commenting on why the restraints there should not be used RF past 12 kg and their height limit for RF respectively. He also says why Australia does not have restraints with a higher RF limit. Listen closely.

http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/child-restraints/x18v836

Then comes the wuestion: Whose job is it to educate the public about ERF?

My answer would be: The same people who changed the current restraints and made the new regulations.

Having seen crash test videos of a 12 kg limit convertiable restraint from Australia (The Hipod Ibiza). There is no way that I would park my 2½ year-old and 32 or 34 lbs son RF in any of the restraints there. it looked as if the seat bounced off the tether strap which is fastend to a point in the boot of the cars, and then it rode up the rearseat back even tough the rebound bar was fully extended.

I had that video on my own computer which unfortunately crashed last week.:(

By the way: Crash testing in Australia is carried out using a sledgebench
EU: ECE R passing: Sledgebench. Consumer testing: An actual car chassis is used with real carseats. T-Plus: A slegdebench is used I think.

here is the link to the side impact test:
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2008/wp29grsp/CRS-04-04e.pdf
Lena
 
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bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
Same as some US states.

(If all rear seats are occupied, what is the alternative besides front seat?)

Roof? trunk? :D
But no really, most us states don't require kids to be in back, or the ones that do, generally have an exception for if all the rear seats are already occupied by other children.

Darren brings up great points. Why aren't Australian kids dying in droves? Is it possible RFing isn't as important as we think? And more importantly....what exactly Is the safest way to transport kids? Which factors are the most significant? Is it the seat itself? The vehicle? Speed limits? the way the seat is installed/facing? Whether or not it has top tethers? How tight the harness is? Side Airbags? It boggles the mind.

My dh maintains that the best way to stay safe is not to get in a crash, and he's using that method..:rolleyes:
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
My dh maintains that the best way to stay safe is not to get in a crash, and he's using that method..:rolleyes:

I understand the temptation to rolleyes, but in some ways, I agree with him. We, as a society, drive a LOT. We drive recreationally. And we drive unsafely -- we speed, we talk/text, we eat tacos. Carseats are very important and I'm not implying otherwise, but spending less time in the car, making sure the car is well-maintained, and driving more safely when we're in the car would do more to reduce fatalities than any carseat ever will.
 

msg221

Well-known member
Wow! I wasn't expecting to receive so many replies to my original post! I'm glad I did though because there is a lot of interesting information here. I was all set to read the article that joolsplus3 posted then I saw that it was an actual research article and I couldn't bring myself to read it right now! This is because I am currently in the second semester of a Master's program and I spend every week reading 2-3 research articles so I just couldn't do it! At least not today, which I declared a "no homework day!" But I will save it to read another time.

I was curious as to the reason that Australia allows 6 month old infants to ride forward facing when all of the articles I have read emphatically states how dangerous it is. And the questions Darren posed made me think about it even more. I was very curious to see what the car seats sold in Australia look like and found an online retailer just so I could look at them! One manufacturer claims that Australia has one of the toughest standards in the world when it comes to child restraints.

This is the information I found about the new legislation going into effect in Australia:

http://www.ors.wa.gov.au/Documents/...21 August 2009.u_2535319r_1n_D09^23265739.PDF

Regardless, I will be one to rear face for as long as the seats I have will allow. I am not taking any chances! I have two Britax Advocate CS seats in my car, for children who are not even my own! I bought them because my husband and I care for our 21 month old twin godson and goddaughter a lot and on occassion, the children belonging to my two stepdaughters: ages 19 months, 7 month-old twin boy and girl and another baby due in May. I was adamant about keeping these precious babies safe whenever we had them. I have shared all I have learned with my stepdaughters about child restraints and made sure that I knew how to install their seats correctly and even had them checked at a car seat safety clinic. They consider me the car seat expert! I wouldn't go that far, but I did consider becoming certified. Unfortunately the classes are only being offered M-F during the day, when I have to be at work.

Anyway, I did learn a lot more through what others have posted, so thank you all!
 
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SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Darren brings up great points. Why aren't Australian kids dying in droves? Is it possible RFing isn't as important as we think?

I've posted similar numbers before from the CDC leading causes of death utility ( http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus.html ).

On a whim, I went to the Fatal Injury Report utility http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html . This one lets you do a few more things. For example, instead of including all motor vehicle traffic deaths (that include pedestrians and such), you can limit it to accidental deaths for occupants. In doing so, I find that from 1999 to 2006 (the most recent subset of data):

Deaths to occupants less than 1 year old: 667 or about 83 per year
Deaths to occupants 1 year old (12-23 mo): 386 or about 48 per year

These numbers are pretty close to what I've found from the causes of death figures. The certainly don't show a huge increase in deaths to kids once they reach the typical threshold of 1 year that was well established from 1999-2006. Of course, so many other variables are involved that it's also impossible to say that kids are 72% safer FF vs. RF based on the drop.

Further, we know the vast majority of all occupant deaths are to people who are improperly restrained, unrestrained or riding with a drunk/impaired driver. For example, we know that what, over half the kids who die in crashes are unrestrained? That leaves maybe 20 per year for 1 year olds? On a per capita or per million vehicle miles basis how does that compare with other countries? It is still a tragedy, but that probably leaves very, very few data points to compare RF vs. FF in fatal crashes beyond 12 months old. If you remove major misuse, drunk/impaired drivers and other factors that account most traffic deaths, you're probably left with almost no data at all.

It's the same reason that Sweden has no comparative statistics, because they have so few deaths and no data for FF kids under 4 years old to use as a basis for comparison. The same is true if you look at their extremely low fatality rate for booster use vs. a 5-point harness. They just don't have the fatality data to compare because so few die and so few of those use a harness and it's difficult to remove all the other differences that vary country to country.
 

Guest

New member
A pp touched on it, but I'm interested to see how driver education has an effect on safety and just sheer number of crashes.

No idea about Australia, but it's my opinion that the driver education standard in the US is pathetically low compared to most of W. Europe. It's just a sheer guess, but I'm thinking usage could be better and crashes would occur less if we just toughened up requirements to get a license.
 

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