discussion of potential safety benefits of a 4 pt booster over a 5 pt harness

Splash

New member
I do not really advocate extended harnessing. I think there is enough evidence on either side to form an opinion either way, and my opinion is swayed to a booster being a safer choice for a mature child over 5.5 or so.
So as I begin to venture into the booster world (from which I have been kept safe due to my child's age), I begin weighing the pros and cons of harnessing. And I keep wondering about the SG on the parkway. It basically creates a 4 point harness out of a 3 point belt, allowing uniform movement of the upper body and spine while eliminating submarining and keeping the hips down and snug to prevent ejection. This uniform movement is why I lean toward boosters vs harnesses for school-aged kids.

So, what is your take on this theory? Do you think the 4pt over the SG is better than the 5pt of a harness at some point? Do you think it offers any legitimate extra protection or is it pure marketing? Do you think it would really hold in a crash, or is it a PCP and more effective for placating parents than protecting children?
 
ADS

mommy-medic

New member
*I have not played with one in person* but would like to see crash testing and see if that clip actually holds or if it breaks, or both. I believe it to be more of a PCP than a secure, holding device that would stay in place and actually act as one of the "points" (4 point). In order to really count it as a "point" IMO it would need to be weight bearing, and would need to secure to the seatbelt a bit more. :twocents:a
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
It's a solid metal clip. It's weight bearing. :thumbsup: I wish someone would do some study of booster safety in Australia, where they've had these for a couple years (Britax was going to release the Starriser with a clip back in like, 2003, so it's not new technology, either, just fresh to the market here).
There IS still some abdominal injury to kids in boosters, but the study I saw didn't differentiate between booster types (I would assume that the kids with those injuries were in AO's or screwless Turbo boosters, not those in properly used, well-fitting boosters, but they really didn't say).
 

Maedze

New member
I theorize that the SG clip will do the most good for booster riders who don't belong to the posters on c-s.org :whistle:

If a booster fits a child well, and the child meets the height and weight limits of the seat, he's not going to submarine.

However, a younger, wigglier child who really isn't yet ready for a booster, I can see slumping down, or loosening the lap belt out of curiosity. So for parents who routinely put their three year old children in boosters? The SG is nice feature that might reduce the risk of abdominal injury.

For the average C-S.org spawn, who tend not to go to full time boostering until they are six or so, my guess is the SG clip is a lot less significant.

I'm really glad they decided to make it optional.
 

my3girls

New member
It basically creates a 4 point harness out of a 3 point belt, allowing uniform movement of the upper body and spine while eliminating submarining and keeping the hips down and snug to prevent ejection. This uniform movement is why I lean toward boosters vs harnesses for school-aged kids.

Where do your thoughts about uniform movement of the upper body come from? I can't understand how a crotch clip attached to a lap belt would affect the upper body in a crash? When I watch boostered dummies in frontal crashes, they suffer some major twisting around the shoulder belt, something I've never liked the look of! Help me understand what you're saying, please. :)
 

Pixels

New member
Do you think the 4pt over the SG is better than the 5pt of a harness at some point?

In terms of safety, no, I don't think the 4pt SG is better than a 5pt harness at any point. I think we would all be safer in 5pt harnesses, but I'm not in the harness as long as possible camp. At some point the safety difference diminishes to the point where I don't mind a child being in either one. That point is when the child is physically large enough and phychologically mature enough to properly use a booster.

In terms of getting kids (particularly those experiencing peer pressure) to willingly use it, I do think the 4pt SG is more palatable and therefore better.

Do you think it offers any legitimate extra protection or is it pure marketing? Do you think it would really hold in a crash, or is it a PCP and more effective for placating parents than protecting children?

As a pre-crash positioner, definitely adds a safety benefit. I think it would really hold in a crash. The littler kids (who need it more due to increased risk of submarining) weigh less and therefore don't put as much pressure on the strap. Bigger kids who weigh more will have more of the forces placed directly on their pelvic bones and therefore won't put as much pressure on the strap. The only kids who are going to really push the strap to the max are those who are heavy and young, because their pelvic bones are still too soft and flexible.

I'm with Maedze on a lot of the points she made. It's more of a benefit to the younger kids, and the children of parents who don't always make sure their child is riding properly. I'm glad they made the clip optional because what 8 year old wants a crotch strap? I can see kids complaining until their parents took them out of the booster entirely because the parent already bought "the last seat you'll need."
 

Pixels

New member
Where do your thoughts about uniform movement of the upper body come from? I can't understand how a crotch clip attached to a lap belt would affect the upper body in a crash? When I watch boostered dummies in frontal crashes, they suffer some major twisting around the shoulder belt, something I've never liked the look of! Help me understand what you're saying, please. :)

There is a school of thought that says boosters are better than 5pt harnesses for kids who are old enough and big enough to use them properly. The people who believe this say that having a 5pt harness holds the shoulders back while the head flies forward, putting strain on the neck. In a booster, the entire upper body moves forward together and does not concentrate strain on the neck.
 

christineka

New member
I'm really glad they decided to make it optional.

When did it become optional? The reason I wouldn't consider the seat for my older girls is because when it came out it was not optional and I knew my girls would never go for that crotch strap and neither do they need it at their booster maturity anyway.
 

natysr

New member
I theorize that the SG clip will do the most good for booster riders who don't belong to the posters on c-s.org :whistle:

If a booster fits a child well, and the child meets the height and weight limits of the seat, he's not going to submarine.

However, a younger, wigglier child who really isn't yet ready for a booster, I can see slumping down, or loosening the lap belt out of curiosity. So for parents who routinely put their three year old children in boosters? The SG is nice feature that might reduce the risk of abdominal injury.

For the average C-S.org spawn, who tend not to go to full time boostering until they are six or so, my guess is the SG clip is a lot less significant.

I'm really glad they decided to make it optional.

And what about the nearly 6 year old kids that can sit in a booster properly, but are only 35 pounds? :whistle:
 

Maedze

New member
I understand what they were trying to do with that minimum but they missed the mark.

Put a 4 year minimum and a 30 pound limit on it. Am I thrilled with the idea of a 30 pound 4 year old in a booster, no, of course not. But it's silly that a small six year old can't use it.

Also, make the use of the SG required before 40 pounds and optional after 40 lbs.
 

Pixels

New member
Yes, I agree. It's silly that the seats (Frontier with SG and PW SG) with the most potential benefit for the smallest riders have 40 pound minimums. Way to exclude those children who stand to benefit the most.

If every (or the vast majority of) booster had a 40 pound minimum, that's one thing. But when almost all HBBs have a 30 pound minimum, it's another. I think Britax was probably trying to promote EHing (beyond 1 and 30) by raising the minimums like they did with the Frontier (2 and 25, is it?) to promote ERFing. However, I don't think it's the most appropriate thing to do with this safety feature. Let the littlest kids have access to it.
 

emandbri

Well-known member
I'm fine with the 40 lbs limit but then again I do have heavy kids. :whistle:

I think it is great they are trying to be more in tune with what we recommend. Far to often we have parents who want to put 30 lbs 3 year olds in boosters and we say "it isn't safe" and they say "graco says it is okay," well who are they going to believe?
 

Maedze

New member
Again, though, the issue isn't the 30 lbs so much as the age. As a general rule, most 5 year olds aren't the 30 pounders. It's the three year olds that give me a heart attack ;)
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Yes, I agree. It's silly that the seats (Frontier with SG and PW SG) with the most potential benefit for the smallest riders have 40 pound minimums. Way to exclude those children who stand to benefit the most.

If every (or the vast majority of) booster had a 40 pound minimum, that's one thing. But when almost all HBBs have a 30 pound minimum, it's another. I think Britax was probably trying to promote EHing (beyond 1 and 30) by raising the minimums like they did with the Frontier (2 and 25, is it?) to promote ERFing. However, I don't think it's the most appropriate thing to do with this safety feature. Let the littlest kids have access to it.

On the flip side, you have a nice booster like the Rodi XR that gives a minimum limit of 1 year and 30 pounds. Someone will always think that the limits are too high or too low. Marketing and big box retailers want low minimums and high maximums, as much as possible. I guarantee if the SG had a 30 pound minimum, you'd have people crying that it promotes booster use for kids that are too young or small. It's a no win for any manufacturer. Market to a wider range of kids for more $$$ or promote safety. If the two are the same thing in everyone's mind, it's a win-win, but that is rarely the case.

As for the original question, more points of restraint is generally safer. There are probably incremental improvements in safety for some kids going from booster to 4-pt booster to 5-point harness. For most people reading this forum with a child appropriate to be in a booster, I suspect the differences are pretty small since they will otherwise be properly restrained in the back seat with an attentive driver;-) I let my 4 year old ride in all three of the above from time to time.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
We also strive for consistency of message. 4 years and 40 pounds has long been a nice rule of thumb for the minimum to move out of a 5-point and into a booster. Some high backs do allow 30 pound minimums, much lower than the rule of thumb. Not much you can do but hope someone doesn't get greedy and drop it to 25 or 20. Mixed messages are an issue with almost every guideline we have, unfortunately.
 

Melanie

New member
I theorize that the SG clip will do the most good for booster riders who don't belong to the posters on c-s.org :whistle:

If a booster fits a child well, and the child meets the height and weight limits of the seat, he's not going to submarine.

However, a younger, wigglier child who really isn't yet ready for a booster, I can see slumping down, or loosening the lap belt out of curiosity. So for parents who routinely put their three year old children in boosters? The SG is nice feature that might reduce the risk of abdominal injury.

For the average C-S.org spawn, who tend not to go to full time boostering until they are six or so, my guess is the SG clip is a lot less significant.

I'm really glad they decided to make it optional.

Maedze, You just made me feel better about my decision to purchase a Vivo (which is arriving today) instead of a Parkway SG. I've been agonizing over it and wondering if I made the right choice. I hadn't though about it from that angle.
 

bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
You know splash, I've been wanting to start a thread on sort of this very topic, just to discuss it one more time. I REALLY would like to have a discussion of all the research regarding harness vs booster for the over 5/40 set. It REALLY, REALLY concerns me that Sweden doesn't FF harness their kids. REALLY. I've tried to look backthrough olod threads, and tried to wade through webpages in poorly translated swedish about the safety of harnessing while FFing. I think this is an area where there is very little actual info, and it bothers me not to know. It bothers me not to know what to tell parents. What bothers me more is that I don't know enough to be able to make a truly informed choice for my own child. She is 45 lbs, 5.5 yo, and sits well in a booster. And the fact is..i DON'T KNOW what is the safest choice for her. If harnessing safer? Is boostering safer? Are they both fairly equal?? At what point are they fairly equal? Is boostering ever safER than harnessing? Or does harnessing stay safER, even once boostering becomes a "safe" choice?
I really believe that the school of though Pixels referred to in post 7 might truly have some merit. It frightens me that I might actually be making my child LESS safe by keeping her harnessed than she would be in a properly used booster. The mechanics involved in that school of thought about itactually beig EASIER on the neck to have 1 shoulder free seems to have SERIOUS merit from a logical perspective.
I just not sure what to believe, and I really wish there were more data. or i could read swedish.

to address the specific 4 vs 5 point question Splash asked..i actually believe there to be significant benefit. I'm going to have to disagree with my beloved Maedze here. I think that EVEN for an appropriately sized 5-6+ year old 40+ lb booster rider, the SG clip is going to provide benefit. I think even much older kids/teens and even adults submarine to some small extent in a serious enough crash. There are lots of cases of "seatbelt syndrome", usually just referred to as abdominal injuries, even in adults.
Do I think that at some point a 4-pt harness (or even 3 pt harness) is actually safER than a 5-pt at some point?? Yes, i think i probably do. I think there is actually some benefit to that "uniform movement" and not placing all that stress upon just the single neck point. In fact, if you pressed me....using the knowledge I have, to formulate a personal opinion, on what the safEST choice for a 6+ yo child was, I'd probably say the 4-pt system. Prevent abdominal injuries with the 4th point, allow crash forces to dissipate along an entire side of the body instead of just the neck point...that seems like the best choice. Now, I do also think that a standard 3-pt booster system is also probably very safe. i'm not as sure about the 5-pt harness. i do worry about the neck loads, I really do.

As far as holding..that is one HEAVY piece of thick metal. I absolutely believe it would hold in a crash, and be weight-bearing. I remember when i got to play with one (Thanks Darren!) I was very surprised at how heavy it is. The webbing is basuically harness webbing, and the metal clip itself is one single solid piece of metal...so, it's like a crotch buckle, but actually better, IMO..there are no mechanical parts to potentially "unclick" or fail in some way..it's extremely sturdy.

Realistically, I think the semantics debate is probably not horribly useful. Because either a crash is minor enough that any level of appropriate restraint is going to be enough to protect teh child, or else it's completely unsurvivable anyway. I think the number of crashes where the different between life and death is going ot be some tiny variance in safety between 3 and 4 pt harness is probably minute at best. NOW..I'm not talkign about the different between RF and FF a 1-2 yo child..I think there are probably a significant number of crashes where the difference in safety threre IS absolutely the difference between life and death/serious injury. We have lots of data. I feel the same way about the harness vs booster debate in the very young 2-3 yo set. Again, we have data. But at the extended harnessing level, when we are talking about 5-6+ year olds....I'm just not as certain how significant the difference is between the available options of 3, 4 or 5 pt harness. It's probably smallish. I just don't have enough data.
 

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