momika
Moderator - CPS Technician
Below is the transcript for the chat on 1/30. It has been minimally edited to remove extraneous info such as time stamps and entrances to the chat room as well as the roll call information. It was a moderated chat, and that is why it appears that Darren, Heather, Deborah, and I were the only ones who chatted. When someone entered a message, it was actually submitted by me or Darren or Heather. For some reason, only a few messages included the name of the person who originally posted the message. It's very long, if anyone wants it as a .pdf, just send me a private message with you remail address and I'll send it on to you.
Thanks to everyone who participated and I can't wait for the next one!
Car-Seat.org Chat Transcript 1/30/2007
momika -> Welcome everyone, we're just waiting for some technical issues to be resolved for one of our guests
CPSDarren -> Ok for some reason Rebekah can't log in even though she was able to do so earlier. I think it may be a firewall issue. We are going to start without her, but she is going to send some responses she had for advance questions by email to Monika
CPSDarren -> So, let's begin and maybe she will be able to fix it
CPSDarren -> Welcome to the first moderated CEU Q&A session at Car-Seat.Org! Today's guest speakers are Deborah Stewart of Safe Ride News and author of the LATCH manual, along with Rebekah Baranowski from SafeGuard, a division of IMMI and makers of the SafeGuard Child Seat, Go and STAR bus seat. Their websites are www.saferidenews.com and www.safeguardseat.com. Thank you to our guests and all the attendees for joining us!
CPSDarren -> Today's session is moderated. This means that there will be no public chat going while the session is in progress. Anything you type into the chat room must be approved by a moderator before it will be shown in public. This will help keep the session on topic and allow for less clutter. Today's moderator is Monika Toney (momika) and she will be helped by Heather Watson (murphydog77) and me. Your questions will be kept in the queue until a moderator feels they are appropriate. Some comments and questions may not be selected to appear at all. If you have a question for a moderator, please do not type it into general chat. Instead, you may right click on their name and use the Instant Message feature of the chat room to ask them a question. They will be busy, so you may not get an immediate response.
CPSDarren -> This session is intended for certified child passenger safety technicians. Senior community members from Car-Seat.Org have also been invited to attend if there is enough room. Because there is a 50-person limit on this chat room, those who are not technicians may be asked to leave if the room fills to capacity. Please understand that we are constrained to this limit of the software until a sponsor is found for the chat room. A transcript will be posted later for those who could not attend. Unfortunately, CEU credit cannot be awarded unless you were present for the live session. Please do not chat or remain in the main chat room if you are not participating in the session. You are welcome to Re-enter the chat room after the event.
CPSDarren -> This is all the fine print;-)
CPSDarren -> Today's topics are Extended weight harness seats, LATCH weight limits and SafeGuard child restraints. Please bear with us since this is the first session of this kind we've done at Car-Seat.Org and some guests and attendees have never used this chat room before so there may be some technical issues. The session will start with any topics Deborah and Rebekah wish to discuss, followed by a list of questions that were submitted in advance in our Technical Professionals forum. Finally, if there is time, we will allow "live" followup questions and other questions for our guests. Our moderators may also answer questions from time to time.
CPSDarren -> I'll give everyone a minute to read before I go on
Deborah -> Darren, I've based my "presentation" on the questions, so don't have a separate piece prepared. So maybe jumping into the questions would start us rolling. Or I can come up with some introductory thoughts now.
CPSDarren -> One CEU credit has been pre-approved by the CPS Board for this event. You will receive an email to the address you have listed for your account at Car-Seat.Org with a confirmation of your credit. This may take a week or two for me to process. If it is urgent, please send me a private message or email and I will try to expedite this for your recertification.
CPSDarren -> No worries Deborah- Monika will do an introduction in a minute and you can make a comment if you like!
CPSDarren -> To obtain CEU credit for this event, you must do the following: 1) Update your Car-Seat.Org user profile with your tech/instructor number and current email address 2) Be present for at least one hour from this time 3) Say hello now for a roll call! Please include your name and location for the log and you may include other comments if you wish.
CPSDarren -> I will now turn it over to Monika Toney (momika) for introductions and she will start the session. Monika is one of our Admins at Car-Seat.Org and was also the co-leader at the Car Seat forums at iVillage/Parentsplace for many years, back when they were one of the only places to go online for carseat help and also hosted guest speaker chats. She has been a technician for 8 years and is the mother of 3 boys!
CPSDarren -> Take it away, Monika!
momika -> Welcome to the CEU Q&A session at Car-Seat.Org. I am Monika Toney, your moderator for today. Thank you for joining us and thank you to our special guests Rebekah Baranowski and Deborah Stewart. Special thanks to Darren for setting this up and hosting Car-Seat.org!
momika -> Rebekah is having technical issues and I will be submitting some of her prewritten responses on her behalf
CPSDarren -> you can send an instant private message by using the right-click on the name of another member in a chat room and you will see an option for Instant Message
momika -> Once again, this is a moderated chat. Please type your question and it will be placed in a queue and asked for you. As Darren said, we have questions already lined up, but if time permits, we will take more questions.
momika -> I’d like to introduce our guest speakers for today: Rebekah Baranowski from SafeGuard and Deborah Stewart from Safe Ride News and author of the LATCH manual.
Deborah -> I'm very happy to be taking part in this innovative effort to update technicians and provide CEUs--all without leaving home/office. These topics are central to my work in updating the LATCH Manual and are at the forefront of CPS issues today. I'm looking forward to hearing from you as well as presenting, because I learn from everyone out there working with families.
momika -> Deborah has been the editor of Safe Ride News for 25 years and is now completing the 5th edition of the LATCH Manual. She has been involved in CPS for 35 years as an advocate, educator, and consultant.
Deborah -> (I jumped the gun!)
momika -> THank you Deborah!
momika -> Rebekah has worked for IMMI for almost 9 years. She represents SafeGuard, a division of IMMI, as a Sales Manager/National Trainer and works closely with advocates, sales reps, and retailers. As a mother of three small children, she understands the importance of quality car seats and education about using them properly.
CPSDarren -> Lol it's very informal I don't think anyone will mind
momika -> nope, no complaints yet ;-)
momika -> so now, let’s get started!
CPSDarren -> I apologize that Rebekah could not make it- I believe she is having some difficulties with the chat room and her firewall. She may get it corrected and rejoin us as she had it working earlier
momika -> Deborah, would you like to make a few comments, or shall I start with the questions?
Deborah -> Let's start with questions, as I thought the ones submitted hit the key points. Then we can take other questions???
momika -> we'll start with Testing anchor weight limits
momika -> How are LATCH limits tested? Why are there different limits?
Deborah -> The standard (225) is vague due at least in part because the vehicle test is not a dynamic test (like a full vehicle crash test or a sled test in the lab for FMVSS 213). So correlating the vehicle pull test with the dynamic requirements for CRs is a matter for engineers to do on paper. ALSO, when the ISOFIX standard was under development, there were no harness-type seats for kids above 40 pounds, so the initial research was done with those products in mind. As the process of developing the standard was going on (long process), products began to change – manufacturers basically took the initiative to extend harness-restraint weight range. Then 213 was extended to 65 lbs mainly to cover boosters up to a level even before a dummy was developed for that weight. So, it has been a moving target.
momika -> Thank you Deborah.
momika -> Why might a vehicle manufacturer not have LATCH limits?
Deborah -> They may not want to commit themselves since the standard is intended to be the authority and yet the standard is vague. They want to stay within the limits of the rule, so prefer to let it speak for them. NHTSA is the one that should straighten this out, but it seems to have refused every opportunity. So we hope the manufacturers can come to some sort of voluntary agreement on how to resolve the problem. This is going on now.
Deborah -> Maybe we should take any followups on this before moving to another topic? It seems rather abrupt and short, so I may not have covered what people really want to know.
CPSDarren -> That's fine with me
Deborah -> I could say more about how the testing is done.
momika -> that would be great
CPSDarren -> Sure that will give people a chance to type too
Deborah -> Ok.
momika -> 2:32 PM [bensmom] If there is no limit, do we need to go with 40 pounds? What about the SafeGuard Go that says you can use LATCH up to 65 pounds, even if the vehicle says 40?
murphydog77 -> When did they start developing the ISOFIX standard?
Deborah -> The child restraints are tested as part of 213, on a sled in a lab. The vehicle testing is much more complicated (or would be if they had to crash actual vehicles in order to know that the anchors were strong enough. So they devised a pull test (static) so the anchors can be tested without crashing the vehicle.
momika -> what exactly is a pull dest vs a dynamic test?
CPSDarren -> I will try to send SafeGuard questions to Rebekah and hope she can answer through me shortly
momika -> I think you read skaterbabscpst's mind and already answered her question.
momika -> I'm going to move ahead to the next sub topic
momika -> Maximum weights:
Deborah -> Okay, let me continue with tests, then go back to the other questions. A pull test: a fixture made to represent a typical CR with the attachments on it, so it can be installed and then it is pulled on to a certain force for a certain period. A dynamic test is a test in motion -- either an actual crash of the vehicle or on a test sled. The forces are very different between a dynamic test and a static, which is a steady pull.
momika -> let me know when you are ready for the next set Deborah
Deborah -> When was the ISOFIX standard started? I'd say off the top of my head, that it was going on through the decade of the 1990s, so maybe 10 years before it became a standard.
momika -> Reminder: please limit current questions to the sub-topic at hand "Testing anchor weight limits" we'll get to other areas shortly
Deborah -> One more answer -- Why do we need to stick with 40 pounds? I didn't really mean that there's NO limit, but there are design limits that the manufacturers have to build to. So, yes, there is a limit. Whether it is 40 or 48 lbs. for the lower anchors is what's being debated now... and there is a group of manufacturers that are working on how to reconcile this, since NHTSA has not stepped in to clarify the situation.
Deborah -> Okay, we can move on.
momika -> I have another couple of ?s for this sub topic
momika -> How does the weight of the seat play into the LATCH weights? For example, the Marathon itself weighs 17 lbs, and the Safeguard 24 lbs. How does that effect the limits?
Deborah -> That is one of the biggest questions. The language in the 225 standard for vehicle anchors says clearly that it was developed with the needs of a 65 pound child in mind. However, NHTSA backtracked on that at Lifesavers last year -- and a lot of the manufacturers are being extremely cautious. Certainly the weighth of the device has to be looked at in unraveling this problem.
momika -> Are there CURRENTLY any revisions to LATCH or FMVSS 225 that are being considered or 'in the works'?
Deborah -> Ford did a bunch of tests with its vehicle anchors about 2000 (or maybe before) that showed that its vehiclel anchors would hold a regular car seat with a 60 lb. child or a harness (which has almost no weight) with a 80 pound child. So that tells you a lot. I don't think that Ford was making all their anchors "heavy duty" -- they were testing the anchors that would meet the standard. However, the anchors themselves are only part of how a vehicle anchor performs. You have to take into consideration the bigger picture -- crush of the vehicle, deformation of the metal in the area of the anchors, etc. and would be different for each vehcile. So the pull test cannot be completely accurate.
momika -> if a pull test is not completely accurate, why use it? Cost? Or is it "close enough"?
CPSDarren -> I have some information from a NHTSA docket that discusses some of the testing that went on in or around the year 2000 that Deborah mentioned
CPSDarren -> "NHTSA has determined that the strength requirements proposed in the NPRM are generally high enough to ensure that the lower anchorage system will be able to withstand the loads generated by a child in a child restraint in a crash. This final rule specifies a forward load of 11,000 N, using a fixture that applies the load to both lower anchorages simultaneously (and not to the tether anchorage).(29) The 11,000 N forward load is similar to the 10,600 N load that was proposed in the NPRM for testing the strength of the lower anchorages (5,300 N applied to each lower anchorage). The 11,000 N forward load requirement is supported by test data conducted by Transport Canada. Canada performed 48.3 km/h (30 mph) dynamic testing of a 6-year-old (48 lb) child dummy in a (17 lb) booster restraint that was attached to the vehicle seat assembly by the rigid lower bars of a child restraint anchorage system. Dynamic loads recorded at one lower bar was approximately 5,500 N, resulting in a combined dynamic load of about 11,000 N. There is a margin of safety incorporated into the adopted strength requirement by way of the method by which the 11,000 N static load is applied to the anchorages, which is discussed below with regard to the static load onset and hold periods. "
Deborah -> To go to MarkF question -- I don't know of any revisions to the LATCH part of the standards underway now, but since the release of the NHTSA LATCH study in December, NHTSA gave itself goals that include making it possible for tethers to be used for higher weight seats! So that's a step. THere will be a meeting about all the LATCH issues on Feb. 8th (very quick turn-around for NHTSA). The adminstrator is a mom with young kids, so maybe that's why it is moving faster. We need to give her positive feedback as well as comment on LATH issues we see -- the agency is taking comments for several months (I don't have the closing date - see SRN).
CPSDarren -> As you can see, some testing was done with a 48 pound child and a 17 pound restraint in mind, though they called it a "booster restraint"
Deborah -> Many of theh engineers I've talked with (including folks at IMMI) have done their own analyses of what the test requirements really mean and have concluded that 40 pounds is much more conservative than necessary.
Deborah -> I want to make clear --- not sure I did -- that the Ford tests were for tether anchor strength, not for lower anchors.
Deborah -> maybe time for another topic?
momika -> yup, let's move on so we can get to everything
momika -> next on the list is Maximum weights:
momika -> Testing with higher weight limits will be done when? Our children are not getting smaller....
CPSDarren -> Rebekah has this to say about the previous question pertaining to the SafeGuard GO
CPSDarren -> "The SafeGuard Go does not say to go against the vehicle mfg's instructions. What it says is the LATCH system may be used the entire time, unless the vehicle manual states a set limit. So in harness mode, the Go can be installed with the tether and lower LATCH anchors from 30 - 60 lbs. In backless booster mode, it can be installed using the lower LATCH anchors from 40 - 100 lbs."
CPSDarren -> As always, any limit given in the vehicle owner's manual will still apply
momika -> Darren, can you continue to provide Rebekah's answers
CPSDarren -> But the Go is lightweight and was designed to be used with LATCH up to 60 pounds in general
CPSDarren -> Sorry, please go on- I will relay answers as I get them from Rebekah in addition to her premade answers that Monika was sent when Rebekah was having some connection issues
Deborah -> I, of course, have written a lot about how tether anchor weights are open to quesiton in actual usage. You'll have to read it all in the LATCH manaul or on the SRN web site, but lower anchor weights should be followed explicitly. None of the manufacturers go above 48 pounds.
CPSDarren -> http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf
Deborah -> THe issue with the GO, of using the lower attachments when using it as a the booster for the full range of use -- is that the attachments are not holding the child -- only the booster itself. The child is restrained by the adult safety belt.
Deborah -> Vehicles are designed, built, sold, and then stay on the road for a long time. Changing the standard for the weights of anchors would be a HUGE deal, requiring complete redesigns and then we would have two weight levels for different models, different years. Manufacturer Voluntary agreement? WHAT MIGHT CHANGE is the way the vehicle makers are interpreting the current 225 standard, so as to correlate it with CRs that have high-weight harnesses. That is a process that Safe Ride News started at Lifesavers last year by calling an informal meeting of CR and vehicle folks to seek a voluntary solution. I have hopes that the manufacturers’ discussions and re-testing will lead to some progress.
Deborah -> To go on to the maximum weights question and any revised testing: Vehicles are designed, built, sold, and then stay on the road for a long time. Changing the standard for the weights of anchors would be a HUGE deal, requiring complete redesigns and then we would have two weight levels for different models, different years. Manufacturer Voluntary agreement? WHAT MIGHT CHANGE is the way the vehicle makers are interpreting the current 225 standard, so as to correlate it with CRs that have high-weight harnesses. That is a process that Safe Ride News started at Lifesavers last year by calling an informal meeting of CR and vehicle folks to seek a voluntary solution. I have hopes that the manufacturers’ discussions and re-testing will lead to some progress.
Deborah -> Oops, this appeared twice. sorry
momika -> THank you Deborah. To continue with higher weight limits, are there going to be seats that can accommodate babies rear-facing at higher weight limits than 35 lbs? Or for people who should be rear-facing for the majority of their lives?
Deborah -> Unfortunately, since these kids are still a very small minority, it is not very likely that a lot of R&D resources will be put into this problem. There should be a federal program to underwrite this type of research, like there is with “orphan drugs.”
Deborah -> The Swedish seats that are used up to 40 pounds/4 years are installed very differently, so unless there are changes in the standard, no one will do much to bring in new designs. Getting the standard changed is a huge undertaking… and once again, I’m not very optimistic that will happen any time soon. Certainly not with the current budget priorities.
Deborah -> However, advocates as individuals and organizations should be pressing NHTSA for changes to 213 and 225 if necessary within a reasonable time frame. 213 issues like side-impact, appropriate testing for larger seats (RF and FF) should be actively worked on, and 225 LATCH issues such as center rear, higher-weight tether anchors, etc need to be looked at. It took Congressional action to move the agency along on this early in this decade, so maybe that’s needed again.
momika -> I'm going to hold off on further live questions until we finish the questions already in queue
CPSDarren -> We have about 25 more minutes since we started late
momika -> I have a few questions on harness use above 40 lbs
momika -> A couple of people from Norway have mentioned that they stop harnessing there after 40 lbs. and go to boosters because they've been taught by health officials that the harness is too stiff and doesn't allow the child's neck enough flexion in a crash--the child actually is at more risk for injury when in a harness to higher weights. Do we have data from Europe to back this up?
Deborah -> One more thing about the Swedish seat that can be used higher RF, NHTSA only grants permission for import for medical conditions like brittle bone... They turned down a request for a baby who was extremely heavy for his age. Didn't consider that a "special need."
Deborah -> Oops, that answer was for the previous quesiton.
CPSDarren -> That's OK!
Deborah -> As for the Norway rumor... If we look at race-car drivers in their full-harness belt systems, I think we have to give credence to the benefits of high-weight harness seats.
Deborah -> I’m sure this will be possible to analyze from the PCPS data base eventually, when there are enough cases of kids in serious crashes in both types of restraints. So far, I don’t think they have enough cases. One of the goals of the Partners for Child Passenger Safety research program has been to be able to analyze the effectiveness of new technology as it comes into use… but there must be kids in crashes in order to see what actually happens. There are computer simulations that they also use, but they usually base them on what they find happening in the real world.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah's response to the higher weight limit seat ? from above: SafeGuard currently offers FF seating options. If there is enough of a need, a product will be developed to address it. For example, the high-weight harness trend has caught on throughout the industry. A mfg responds to needs in the market with new products or revisions to existing ones. But it’s also difficult to design a product that addresses a small percentage of the population, unless it’s an evolution of an existing product that uses some of the same manufacturing equipment.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah addressing the Norway ?: I’m not aware of this data. While we make products that are used all across the world, we’re not currently certifying our line if seats to European standards. Another thing to consider is that children have much more freedom in BPBs. One benefit of a harness is the child is where you left him, rather than leaning over to pick on his brother like he can in a BPB.
Deborah -> And it has to be able to pass the tests with only the authorized lap belt or lower attachments.
momika -> My next question was Will there be actual data comparing safety of extended harness vs. booster? (And/or is there a timeframe being planned for this?) , but I think ypu've already answered taht Deborah - thanks!
Deborah -> I completely agree with Rebekay's point on kid's behavior.
Deborah -> I also had prepared this on the NOrway point -- but didn't send it. I have not heard anything about such a problem. Given the experience of race car drivers with 4- and 5-point harnesses, I would doubt that there’s any data to back it up. Generally, the concern about neck strength is more related to infants and very young children and is very real – so we want toddlers to face the rear as long as possible –but it’s not an issue for older, larger kids.
momika -> Thanks.
momika -> next we have Center Rear installations:
momika -> Is there any evidence (in real life or in crash testing) that installing a CR *tightly* with Latch using non-standard spacing is problematic?
momika -> Is there anything in FMVSS 208 that dictates how wide or how narrow seatbelt anchors can be? Obviously, the distance between seatbelt anchors isn't standardized but as long as the installation is tight we don't question it. I'm just wondering why we can't apply the same basic assessments to Latch installations?
Deborah -> I don't know of any evidence in real world of a problem using the center rear with widely spaced LATCHh bars. I'm sure the vehiclel and CR mfrs are doing testing but I haven't seen any results. However, I can tellyou that there are more CR manufacturers now allowing it and more vehicle models allowing it, so I would assume their findings have been positive. (more in next post)
Deborah -> CRs are tested for 213 with lap belts on the sled bench that are much wider apart than 11 inches. The center seat lab belt anchors are spaced 15.5 inches (400 mm) apart (for most CR tests) and outboard seat position anchors are spaced 18.5 inches (472 mm) apart (for booster tests). So I can’t see also can’t see why there should be such a big issue about the LATCH strap attachments used with wider anchors. AND some of the manufacturers seem to have come around.
Deborah -> I totally agree that the strict interpretation of some manufacturers regarding the 11-inch spacing makes no sense. It should only be necessary for a rigidly attached seat. This is one issue that is now on the NHTSA agenda, thanks to the LATCH study report that it released in December. They state very clearly that their goals include – encouraging use (and correct use) of CRs in the center rear as well as encouraging installation of more LATCH anchors in the center rear.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah's response: The difference is LATCH is specifically designed for use with car seats, while vehicle seat belts were designed for use with adults. Using them for car seats was taking something that was already existing and using to solve another problem: securing a car seat in a vehicle. CRs mfgs test in compliance with FMVSS213, plus I’d guess that most also run some due diligence testing. If that’s not a scenario that is specifically tested for, there would be no data to confirm or dispute your hypothesis. If it’s not recommended in the instructions, don’t do it. Plus, the static pull tests conducted by vehicle mfgs are done at a pretty straight angle. The farther the anchorage points are, the more it changes the angle of pull.
momika -> You mentioned that more vehicles mfgs are doing it. So, Ford is not the only vehicle manufacturer that allows outboard LATCH for center install ... who else does?
momika -> and Why are they not all allowing it?
Deborah -> The standard width bars were designed for rigid attachments, which were the initial ISOFIX concept and are required in Europe. If we hadn't gotten sidetracked in the US with flexible strap attachments, we'd be going that way, too... but our seats would be heavier and more expensive (at least at first). Sos there are plusses and minuses for both types of attachments.
Deborah -> About the vehicle manufacturer requirements, I've jsut finished compiling the data for the LATCH manual. So here it is. NO, Ford is not the only one. All GM brands allow center use if the CR instructions allow, as do 8 others with a growing list of specific models (listed in the LATCH manual 2007). Three give no advice. But 23 brands still only allow “designated LATCH positions.” Why? Maybe it is theh company lawyers saying they are going to take a strict position of following the standard exactly.
Deborah -> And -- let me reiterate what Rebekah said, that if the manufacturer says not to do it, don't.
momika -> thank you. To continue, Is Britax the only carseat manufacturer that allows outboard LATCH for center install & why?
CPSDarren -> On the issue of LATCH anchor spacing, one can also just look at what happens with carseat installations with a seatbelt. There are hundreds of variations of seatbelts with different spacings and types. Even so, there are usually no exclusions based on these variations. I agree with Deborah that some manufacturers are being far too strict. There may be exceptions for some issues, but probably not in general.
momika -> and I'll tag this along Both SafeGuard and Britax allow center installations with non-standard spacing of 11-20" (provided the vehicle manufacturer also allows this). Chicco allows center Latch installations with spacing of 8-12" for the KeyFit. Why the difference of opinions?
Deborah -> There has been a lot of change here, as the new manual will show. Ten CR manufacturers now allow center rear use with non-standard spacing, twice as many as 2 years ago. This includes Britax, Compass, Dorel, Fisher-Price, Graco, Orbit, Recaro, SafeGuard, Team Tex America, and Triple Play. The spacing allowed is generally 11 to 20 inches – or no specific spacing is mentioned. Five specify only to use designated anchors, and the rest (14 others) do not specifiy. For those that did not allow such use previously, we are trying to find out whether the change is retroactive or not and whether it is listed in their instructions. But they provided the information directly to us, so I trust it.
Deborah -> Of the current manufacturers that allow non-standard spacing, they all have gone to 11-20 inches or no limits specified (except old Fisher-Price Safe Embrace 2, which allows 10-20 inches).
murphydog77 -> Rebekah says: SafeGuard allows installation in the center as long as it’s an approved seating position for LATCH by the vehicle mfg, and as long as the spacing is 11” – 20” from center of lower anchor to center of lower anchor.
Deborah -> Let me correct the information about Chicco. Chicco has told us (very recently) that what was published in the 2005 manual (8 to 12 inches) and confirmed at that time was incorrect for them – and that their seats can only be used with standard 11 inch spacing. So we will be correcting that in the next edition.
momika -> when will the 07 manual be released?
Deborah -> We are working hard to get it done. I'd say it will be out by April. Maybe sooner but don't hold your breath.
CPSDarren -> Great question!
momika -> Deborah, can I go back to the race car drivers?
momika -> Re: race car drivers -- the argument I've heard is that such adults have helmets which are bolted into place preventing neck/spine injury (kids don't have that)....
CPSDarren -> We have time for a few more questions for Deborah
Deborah -> OK, but I'm not an expert on this.
Deborah -> All I can say about larger kids in full harness restraints is that in order to get accurate, real world date, we'll turn to the Partners for Child Passenger Safety research... and I'm sure they will collect it as more kids are in such seats.
momika -> YOu mentioned flexible vs rigid LATCH attachments and how the flexible is cheaper, are there other reasons why more mfgs are not using rigid attachments? (THis probably would have been a good question for REbekah to answer)
momika -> Is there anything we can do to encourage the use of rigid LATCH on more CRs?
Deborah -> Hmmm, not sure what Rebekah would say, but unless the market place wants/buys the products, the costs won't come down. I hope that NHTSA (and all of us) will do a lot more to sell the value of LATCH use -- and expecially tetherh use.
Deborah -> One thing the NHTSA LATCH study showed was that the seats installed with lower attachments were tighter in most cases. Compared to studies of installation with seat belts, where loose seats were much more common.
momika -> Did they compare LATCH installs to lap and shoulder belt installs though?
CPSDarren -> I understand that there was a minor change in a standard about a year ago that may have affected some rigid LATCH infant seats moreso than other models, so it may not have totally been consumer demand that led to their demise.
Deborah -> I think you all would find the LATCH study useful -- and should respond to NHTSA with your experineces, concerns etc. The study is on www.nhtsa.gov (child restraints)
momika -> Are there any proven benefits to using rigid LATCH vs the less expensive flexible attachment?
Deborah -> The proven benefits I have seen have been in side impact test. That makes sense, as the CR cannot swing toward the point of impact. That type of attachment also will either be tight or not installed -- there's not room for adjustment errors.
CPSDarren -> OK 1 more question then we will have to end
momika -> Can you please give us the link to order the LATCH manual again and
momika -> if one were to order a LATCH manual NOW, would it be possible to stipulate that the order be fulfilled once the newest version is available?
CPSDarren -> There was a European study that also showed some benefit to rigid LATCH in side impacts I will find the link
CPSDarren -> This is the last question for Deborah
Deborah -> Certainly, just contact nancy@saferidenews.com or send an order form specifying the new edition.
CPSDarren -> Here it is, Mark
Deborah -> One more thing, people can get CEUs from using the LATCH manual (taking a short quiz) or from subscribing to SRN. For details, see the web site.
CPSDarren -> http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/...-35-inf19e.pdf
momika -> Thank you Deborah!
CPSDarren -> I hope you all enjoyed the session and thank you again to our guests Deborah Stewart ( www.saferidenews.com ) and Rebekah Baranowski ( www.safeguardseat.com) as well as our moderators Monika (momika) and Heather (murphydog77) ! We may continue for a short while even though Deborah has another commitment. We may still have some comments from Rebekah that we can share and after that all are welcome to chat in the main room on any CPS topic.
Deborah -> Thank you -- it was fun!
momika -> Thank YOu Darren for providing us for the opportunity to participate!
murphydog77 -> A big round of virtual applause!
CPSDarren -> I'm glad it worked out well for so many people! For those that need to leave now, you should get 1 CEU of credit for staying the whole time
lovinwaves -> ((CLAP CLAP))
CPSDarren -> You will receive an email to the address you have listed for your account at Car-Seat.Org with a confirmation of your credit. This may take a week or two for me to process. If it is urgent, please send me a private message or email and I will try to expedite this for your recertification.
CPSDarren -> Thank you all for participating in our Q&A session. I hope this is the first one in a series of CEU credit Q&A sessions this year and hopefully we can also resolve the remaining technical issues before the next one! I am currently planning that session and hope it will be in late February or March. The topic will probably be about extended rear-facing. I have invited Dave Clement from Sunshine Kids and Chris Sherwood from the University of Virginia to attend. Both have tentatively agreed subject to mutual availability.
CPSDarren -> Heather, do we have any more responses from Rebekah ?
murphydog77 -> let me check.
momika -> THank you to everyone who asked questions and apologies to everyone whose questions was not asked for them
murphydog77 -> Yes. It's OT, but it's still good. Assuming IMMI makes harnesses for all companies, why does only Graco forbid immersing the harness in water? What is the concern with a wet harness? When a damp sponge doesn't do the job, what *is* the best way to clean a harness?
murphydog77 -> While IMMI provides much of the industry with their harness needs, we don’t supply all of them. The concern is more with the cleaning agents that would be used than with the water itself. Especially in cases when the webbing passes thru an adjuster of some type. It is up to each individual manufacturer to define their cleaning practices. While I can’t comment on the industry as a whole, I can tell you what we do on our seats. SafeGuard has opened up the cleaning recommendations on the SafeGuard Child Seat’s harness, and these changes will be included in the next manual revision. Because the harness is a continuous piece of webbing and doesn’t pass thru any type of adjuster, our instructions will say: “The harness straps may be wiped clean with warm water and mild soap. Allow to air dry. If harness straps cannot be wiped clean, the harness may be immersed in warm water for up to ten minutes. The water may not contain soap. Rinse the harness straps under warm running water and allow to air dry.” It goes on to say not to iron straps or use any harsh detergents, chemicals, or bleach.
Deborah -> As for the question about race car drivers and their helmet/head/neck support, that is probably correct, however if you think of the speeds they crash at, it's several orders of magnitude different. I have seen a recent computer-simulated study of pregnant women with a 4-point belt (criss-cross arrangement).
Deborah -> You all are welcome. Glad you participated. Good questions.
Thanks to everyone who participated and I can't wait for the next one!
Car-Seat.org Chat Transcript 1/30/2007
momika -> Welcome everyone, we're just waiting for some technical issues to be resolved for one of our guests
CPSDarren -> Ok for some reason Rebekah can't log in even though she was able to do so earlier. I think it may be a firewall issue. We are going to start without her, but she is going to send some responses she had for advance questions by email to Monika
CPSDarren -> So, let's begin and maybe she will be able to fix it
CPSDarren -> Welcome to the first moderated CEU Q&A session at Car-Seat.Org! Today's guest speakers are Deborah Stewart of Safe Ride News and author of the LATCH manual, along with Rebekah Baranowski from SafeGuard, a division of IMMI and makers of the SafeGuard Child Seat, Go and STAR bus seat. Their websites are www.saferidenews.com and www.safeguardseat.com. Thank you to our guests and all the attendees for joining us!
CPSDarren -> Today's session is moderated. This means that there will be no public chat going while the session is in progress. Anything you type into the chat room must be approved by a moderator before it will be shown in public. This will help keep the session on topic and allow for less clutter. Today's moderator is Monika Toney (momika) and she will be helped by Heather Watson (murphydog77) and me. Your questions will be kept in the queue until a moderator feels they are appropriate. Some comments and questions may not be selected to appear at all. If you have a question for a moderator, please do not type it into general chat. Instead, you may right click on their name and use the Instant Message feature of the chat room to ask them a question. They will be busy, so you may not get an immediate response.
CPSDarren -> This session is intended for certified child passenger safety technicians. Senior community members from Car-Seat.Org have also been invited to attend if there is enough room. Because there is a 50-person limit on this chat room, those who are not technicians may be asked to leave if the room fills to capacity. Please understand that we are constrained to this limit of the software until a sponsor is found for the chat room. A transcript will be posted later for those who could not attend. Unfortunately, CEU credit cannot be awarded unless you were present for the live session. Please do not chat or remain in the main chat room if you are not participating in the session. You are welcome to Re-enter the chat room after the event.
CPSDarren -> This is all the fine print;-)
CPSDarren -> Today's topics are Extended weight harness seats, LATCH weight limits and SafeGuard child restraints. Please bear with us since this is the first session of this kind we've done at Car-Seat.Org and some guests and attendees have never used this chat room before so there may be some technical issues. The session will start with any topics Deborah and Rebekah wish to discuss, followed by a list of questions that were submitted in advance in our Technical Professionals forum. Finally, if there is time, we will allow "live" followup questions and other questions for our guests. Our moderators may also answer questions from time to time.
CPSDarren -> I'll give everyone a minute to read before I go on
Deborah -> Darren, I've based my "presentation" on the questions, so don't have a separate piece prepared. So maybe jumping into the questions would start us rolling. Or I can come up with some introductory thoughts now.
CPSDarren -> One CEU credit has been pre-approved by the CPS Board for this event. You will receive an email to the address you have listed for your account at Car-Seat.Org with a confirmation of your credit. This may take a week or two for me to process. If it is urgent, please send me a private message or email and I will try to expedite this for your recertification.
CPSDarren -> No worries Deborah- Monika will do an introduction in a minute and you can make a comment if you like!
CPSDarren -> To obtain CEU credit for this event, you must do the following: 1) Update your Car-Seat.Org user profile with your tech/instructor number and current email address 2) Be present for at least one hour from this time 3) Say hello now for a roll call! Please include your name and location for the log and you may include other comments if you wish.
CPSDarren -> I will now turn it over to Monika Toney (momika) for introductions and she will start the session. Monika is one of our Admins at Car-Seat.Org and was also the co-leader at the Car Seat forums at iVillage/Parentsplace for many years, back when they were one of the only places to go online for carseat help and also hosted guest speaker chats. She has been a technician for 8 years and is the mother of 3 boys!
CPSDarren -> Take it away, Monika!
momika -> Welcome to the CEU Q&A session at Car-Seat.Org. I am Monika Toney, your moderator for today. Thank you for joining us and thank you to our special guests Rebekah Baranowski and Deborah Stewart. Special thanks to Darren for setting this up and hosting Car-Seat.org!
momika -> Rebekah is having technical issues and I will be submitting some of her prewritten responses on her behalf
CPSDarren -> you can send an instant private message by using the right-click on the name of another member in a chat room and you will see an option for Instant Message
momika -> Once again, this is a moderated chat. Please type your question and it will be placed in a queue and asked for you. As Darren said, we have questions already lined up, but if time permits, we will take more questions.
momika -> I’d like to introduce our guest speakers for today: Rebekah Baranowski from SafeGuard and Deborah Stewart from Safe Ride News and author of the LATCH manual.
Deborah -> I'm very happy to be taking part in this innovative effort to update technicians and provide CEUs--all without leaving home/office. These topics are central to my work in updating the LATCH Manual and are at the forefront of CPS issues today. I'm looking forward to hearing from you as well as presenting, because I learn from everyone out there working with families.
momika -> Deborah has been the editor of Safe Ride News for 25 years and is now completing the 5th edition of the LATCH Manual. She has been involved in CPS for 35 years as an advocate, educator, and consultant.
Deborah -> (I jumped the gun!)
momika -> THank you Deborah!
momika -> Rebekah has worked for IMMI for almost 9 years. She represents SafeGuard, a division of IMMI, as a Sales Manager/National Trainer and works closely with advocates, sales reps, and retailers. As a mother of three small children, she understands the importance of quality car seats and education about using them properly.
CPSDarren -> Lol it's very informal I don't think anyone will mind
momika -> nope, no complaints yet ;-)
momika -> so now, let’s get started!
CPSDarren -> I apologize that Rebekah could not make it- I believe she is having some difficulties with the chat room and her firewall. She may get it corrected and rejoin us as she had it working earlier
momika -> Deborah, would you like to make a few comments, or shall I start with the questions?
Deborah -> Let's start with questions, as I thought the ones submitted hit the key points. Then we can take other questions???
momika -> we'll start with Testing anchor weight limits
momika -> How are LATCH limits tested? Why are there different limits?
Deborah -> The standard (225) is vague due at least in part because the vehicle test is not a dynamic test (like a full vehicle crash test or a sled test in the lab for FMVSS 213). So correlating the vehicle pull test with the dynamic requirements for CRs is a matter for engineers to do on paper. ALSO, when the ISOFIX standard was under development, there were no harness-type seats for kids above 40 pounds, so the initial research was done with those products in mind. As the process of developing the standard was going on (long process), products began to change – manufacturers basically took the initiative to extend harness-restraint weight range. Then 213 was extended to 65 lbs mainly to cover boosters up to a level even before a dummy was developed for that weight. So, it has been a moving target.
momika -> Thank you Deborah.
momika -> Why might a vehicle manufacturer not have LATCH limits?
Deborah -> They may not want to commit themselves since the standard is intended to be the authority and yet the standard is vague. They want to stay within the limits of the rule, so prefer to let it speak for them. NHTSA is the one that should straighten this out, but it seems to have refused every opportunity. So we hope the manufacturers can come to some sort of voluntary agreement on how to resolve the problem. This is going on now.
Deborah -> Maybe we should take any followups on this before moving to another topic? It seems rather abrupt and short, so I may not have covered what people really want to know.
CPSDarren -> That's fine with me
Deborah -> I could say more about how the testing is done.
momika -> that would be great
CPSDarren -> Sure that will give people a chance to type too
Deborah -> Ok.
momika -> 2:32 PM [bensmom] If there is no limit, do we need to go with 40 pounds? What about the SafeGuard Go that says you can use LATCH up to 65 pounds, even if the vehicle says 40?
murphydog77 -> When did they start developing the ISOFIX standard?
Deborah -> The child restraints are tested as part of 213, on a sled in a lab. The vehicle testing is much more complicated (or would be if they had to crash actual vehicles in order to know that the anchors were strong enough. So they devised a pull test (static) so the anchors can be tested without crashing the vehicle.
momika -> what exactly is a pull dest vs a dynamic test?
CPSDarren -> I will try to send SafeGuard questions to Rebekah and hope she can answer through me shortly
momika -> I think you read skaterbabscpst's mind and already answered her question.
momika -> I'm going to move ahead to the next sub topic
momika -> Maximum weights:
Deborah -> Okay, let me continue with tests, then go back to the other questions. A pull test: a fixture made to represent a typical CR with the attachments on it, so it can be installed and then it is pulled on to a certain force for a certain period. A dynamic test is a test in motion -- either an actual crash of the vehicle or on a test sled. The forces are very different between a dynamic test and a static, which is a steady pull.
momika -> let me know when you are ready for the next set Deborah
Deborah -> When was the ISOFIX standard started? I'd say off the top of my head, that it was going on through the decade of the 1990s, so maybe 10 years before it became a standard.
momika -> Reminder: please limit current questions to the sub-topic at hand "Testing anchor weight limits" we'll get to other areas shortly
Deborah -> One more answer -- Why do we need to stick with 40 pounds? I didn't really mean that there's NO limit, but there are design limits that the manufacturers have to build to. So, yes, there is a limit. Whether it is 40 or 48 lbs. for the lower anchors is what's being debated now... and there is a group of manufacturers that are working on how to reconcile this, since NHTSA has not stepped in to clarify the situation.
Deborah -> Okay, we can move on.
momika -> I have another couple of ?s for this sub topic
momika -> How does the weight of the seat play into the LATCH weights? For example, the Marathon itself weighs 17 lbs, and the Safeguard 24 lbs. How does that effect the limits?
Deborah -> That is one of the biggest questions. The language in the 225 standard for vehicle anchors says clearly that it was developed with the needs of a 65 pound child in mind. However, NHTSA backtracked on that at Lifesavers last year -- and a lot of the manufacturers are being extremely cautious. Certainly the weighth of the device has to be looked at in unraveling this problem.
momika -> Are there CURRENTLY any revisions to LATCH or FMVSS 225 that are being considered or 'in the works'?
Deborah -> Ford did a bunch of tests with its vehicle anchors about 2000 (or maybe before) that showed that its vehiclel anchors would hold a regular car seat with a 60 lb. child or a harness (which has almost no weight) with a 80 pound child. So that tells you a lot. I don't think that Ford was making all their anchors "heavy duty" -- they were testing the anchors that would meet the standard. However, the anchors themselves are only part of how a vehicle anchor performs. You have to take into consideration the bigger picture -- crush of the vehicle, deformation of the metal in the area of the anchors, etc. and would be different for each vehcile. So the pull test cannot be completely accurate.
momika -> if a pull test is not completely accurate, why use it? Cost? Or is it "close enough"?
CPSDarren -> I have some information from a NHTSA docket that discusses some of the testing that went on in or around the year 2000 that Deborah mentioned
CPSDarren -> "NHTSA has determined that the strength requirements proposed in the NPRM are generally high enough to ensure that the lower anchorage system will be able to withstand the loads generated by a child in a child restraint in a crash. This final rule specifies a forward load of 11,000 N, using a fixture that applies the load to both lower anchorages simultaneously (and not to the tether anchorage).(29) The 11,000 N forward load is similar to the 10,600 N load that was proposed in the NPRM for testing the strength of the lower anchorages (5,300 N applied to each lower anchorage). The 11,000 N forward load requirement is supported by test data conducted by Transport Canada. Canada performed 48.3 km/h (30 mph) dynamic testing of a 6-year-old (48 lb) child dummy in a (17 lb) booster restraint that was attached to the vehicle seat assembly by the rigid lower bars of a child restraint anchorage system. Dynamic loads recorded at one lower bar was approximately 5,500 N, resulting in a combined dynamic load of about 11,000 N. There is a margin of safety incorporated into the adopted strength requirement by way of the method by which the 11,000 N static load is applied to the anchorages, which is discussed below with regard to the static load onset and hold periods. "
Deborah -> To go to MarkF question -- I don't know of any revisions to the LATCH part of the standards underway now, but since the release of the NHTSA LATCH study in December, NHTSA gave itself goals that include making it possible for tethers to be used for higher weight seats! So that's a step. THere will be a meeting about all the LATCH issues on Feb. 8th (very quick turn-around for NHTSA). The adminstrator is a mom with young kids, so maybe that's why it is moving faster. We need to give her positive feedback as well as comment on LATH issues we see -- the agency is taking comments for several months (I don't have the closing date - see SRN).
CPSDarren -> As you can see, some testing was done with a 48 pound child and a 17 pound restraint in mind, though they called it a "booster restraint"
Deborah -> Many of theh engineers I've talked with (including folks at IMMI) have done their own analyses of what the test requirements really mean and have concluded that 40 pounds is much more conservative than necessary.
Deborah -> I want to make clear --- not sure I did -- that the Ford tests were for tether anchor strength, not for lower anchors.
Deborah -> maybe time for another topic?
momika -> yup, let's move on so we can get to everything
momika -> next on the list is Maximum weights:
momika -> Testing with higher weight limits will be done when? Our children are not getting smaller....
CPSDarren -> Rebekah has this to say about the previous question pertaining to the SafeGuard GO
CPSDarren -> "The SafeGuard Go does not say to go against the vehicle mfg's instructions. What it says is the LATCH system may be used the entire time, unless the vehicle manual states a set limit. So in harness mode, the Go can be installed with the tether and lower LATCH anchors from 30 - 60 lbs. In backless booster mode, it can be installed using the lower LATCH anchors from 40 - 100 lbs."
CPSDarren -> As always, any limit given in the vehicle owner's manual will still apply
momika -> Darren, can you continue to provide Rebekah's answers
CPSDarren -> But the Go is lightweight and was designed to be used with LATCH up to 60 pounds in general
CPSDarren -> Sorry, please go on- I will relay answers as I get them from Rebekah in addition to her premade answers that Monika was sent when Rebekah was having some connection issues
Deborah -> I, of course, have written a lot about how tether anchor weights are open to quesiton in actual usage. You'll have to read it all in the LATCH manaul or on the SRN web site, but lower anchor weights should be followed explicitly. None of the manufacturers go above 48 pounds.
CPSDarren -> http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf
Deborah -> THe issue with the GO, of using the lower attachments when using it as a the booster for the full range of use -- is that the attachments are not holding the child -- only the booster itself. The child is restrained by the adult safety belt.
Deborah -> Vehicles are designed, built, sold, and then stay on the road for a long time. Changing the standard for the weights of anchors would be a HUGE deal, requiring complete redesigns and then we would have two weight levels for different models, different years. Manufacturer Voluntary agreement? WHAT MIGHT CHANGE is the way the vehicle makers are interpreting the current 225 standard, so as to correlate it with CRs that have high-weight harnesses. That is a process that Safe Ride News started at Lifesavers last year by calling an informal meeting of CR and vehicle folks to seek a voluntary solution. I have hopes that the manufacturers’ discussions and re-testing will lead to some progress.
Deborah -> To go on to the maximum weights question and any revised testing: Vehicles are designed, built, sold, and then stay on the road for a long time. Changing the standard for the weights of anchors would be a HUGE deal, requiring complete redesigns and then we would have two weight levels for different models, different years. Manufacturer Voluntary agreement? WHAT MIGHT CHANGE is the way the vehicle makers are interpreting the current 225 standard, so as to correlate it with CRs that have high-weight harnesses. That is a process that Safe Ride News started at Lifesavers last year by calling an informal meeting of CR and vehicle folks to seek a voluntary solution. I have hopes that the manufacturers’ discussions and re-testing will lead to some progress.
Deborah -> Oops, this appeared twice. sorry
momika -> THank you Deborah. To continue with higher weight limits, are there going to be seats that can accommodate babies rear-facing at higher weight limits than 35 lbs? Or for people who should be rear-facing for the majority of their lives?
Deborah -> Unfortunately, since these kids are still a very small minority, it is not very likely that a lot of R&D resources will be put into this problem. There should be a federal program to underwrite this type of research, like there is with “orphan drugs.”
Deborah -> The Swedish seats that are used up to 40 pounds/4 years are installed very differently, so unless there are changes in the standard, no one will do much to bring in new designs. Getting the standard changed is a huge undertaking… and once again, I’m not very optimistic that will happen any time soon. Certainly not with the current budget priorities.
Deborah -> However, advocates as individuals and organizations should be pressing NHTSA for changes to 213 and 225 if necessary within a reasonable time frame. 213 issues like side-impact, appropriate testing for larger seats (RF and FF) should be actively worked on, and 225 LATCH issues such as center rear, higher-weight tether anchors, etc need to be looked at. It took Congressional action to move the agency along on this early in this decade, so maybe that’s needed again.
momika -> I'm going to hold off on further live questions until we finish the questions already in queue
CPSDarren -> We have about 25 more minutes since we started late
momika -> I have a few questions on harness use above 40 lbs
momika -> A couple of people from Norway have mentioned that they stop harnessing there after 40 lbs. and go to boosters because they've been taught by health officials that the harness is too stiff and doesn't allow the child's neck enough flexion in a crash--the child actually is at more risk for injury when in a harness to higher weights. Do we have data from Europe to back this up?
Deborah -> One more thing about the Swedish seat that can be used higher RF, NHTSA only grants permission for import for medical conditions like brittle bone... They turned down a request for a baby who was extremely heavy for his age. Didn't consider that a "special need."
Deborah -> Oops, that answer was for the previous quesiton.
CPSDarren -> That's OK!
Deborah -> As for the Norway rumor... If we look at race-car drivers in their full-harness belt systems, I think we have to give credence to the benefits of high-weight harness seats.
Deborah -> I’m sure this will be possible to analyze from the PCPS data base eventually, when there are enough cases of kids in serious crashes in both types of restraints. So far, I don’t think they have enough cases. One of the goals of the Partners for Child Passenger Safety research program has been to be able to analyze the effectiveness of new technology as it comes into use… but there must be kids in crashes in order to see what actually happens. There are computer simulations that they also use, but they usually base them on what they find happening in the real world.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah's response to the higher weight limit seat ? from above: SafeGuard currently offers FF seating options. If there is enough of a need, a product will be developed to address it. For example, the high-weight harness trend has caught on throughout the industry. A mfg responds to needs in the market with new products or revisions to existing ones. But it’s also difficult to design a product that addresses a small percentage of the population, unless it’s an evolution of an existing product that uses some of the same manufacturing equipment.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah addressing the Norway ?: I’m not aware of this data. While we make products that are used all across the world, we’re not currently certifying our line if seats to European standards. Another thing to consider is that children have much more freedom in BPBs. One benefit of a harness is the child is where you left him, rather than leaning over to pick on his brother like he can in a BPB.
Deborah -> And it has to be able to pass the tests with only the authorized lap belt or lower attachments.
momika -> My next question was Will there be actual data comparing safety of extended harness vs. booster? (And/or is there a timeframe being planned for this?) , but I think ypu've already answered taht Deborah - thanks!
Deborah -> I completely agree with Rebekay's point on kid's behavior.
Deborah -> I also had prepared this on the NOrway point -- but didn't send it. I have not heard anything about such a problem. Given the experience of race car drivers with 4- and 5-point harnesses, I would doubt that there’s any data to back it up. Generally, the concern about neck strength is more related to infants and very young children and is very real – so we want toddlers to face the rear as long as possible –but it’s not an issue for older, larger kids.
momika -> Thanks.
momika -> next we have Center Rear installations:
momika -> Is there any evidence (in real life or in crash testing) that installing a CR *tightly* with Latch using non-standard spacing is problematic?
momika -> Is there anything in FMVSS 208 that dictates how wide or how narrow seatbelt anchors can be? Obviously, the distance between seatbelt anchors isn't standardized but as long as the installation is tight we don't question it. I'm just wondering why we can't apply the same basic assessments to Latch installations?
Deborah -> I don't know of any evidence in real world of a problem using the center rear with widely spaced LATCHh bars. I'm sure the vehiclel and CR mfrs are doing testing but I haven't seen any results. However, I can tellyou that there are more CR manufacturers now allowing it and more vehicle models allowing it, so I would assume their findings have been positive. (more in next post)
Deborah -> CRs are tested for 213 with lap belts on the sled bench that are much wider apart than 11 inches. The center seat lab belt anchors are spaced 15.5 inches (400 mm) apart (for most CR tests) and outboard seat position anchors are spaced 18.5 inches (472 mm) apart (for booster tests). So I can’t see also can’t see why there should be such a big issue about the LATCH strap attachments used with wider anchors. AND some of the manufacturers seem to have come around.
Deborah -> I totally agree that the strict interpretation of some manufacturers regarding the 11-inch spacing makes no sense. It should only be necessary for a rigidly attached seat. This is one issue that is now on the NHTSA agenda, thanks to the LATCH study report that it released in December. They state very clearly that their goals include – encouraging use (and correct use) of CRs in the center rear as well as encouraging installation of more LATCH anchors in the center rear.
murphydog77 -> Rebekah's response: The difference is LATCH is specifically designed for use with car seats, while vehicle seat belts were designed for use with adults. Using them for car seats was taking something that was already existing and using to solve another problem: securing a car seat in a vehicle. CRs mfgs test in compliance with FMVSS213, plus I’d guess that most also run some due diligence testing. If that’s not a scenario that is specifically tested for, there would be no data to confirm or dispute your hypothesis. If it’s not recommended in the instructions, don’t do it. Plus, the static pull tests conducted by vehicle mfgs are done at a pretty straight angle. The farther the anchorage points are, the more it changes the angle of pull.
momika -> You mentioned that more vehicles mfgs are doing it. So, Ford is not the only vehicle manufacturer that allows outboard LATCH for center install ... who else does?
momika -> and Why are they not all allowing it?
Deborah -> The standard width bars were designed for rigid attachments, which were the initial ISOFIX concept and are required in Europe. If we hadn't gotten sidetracked in the US with flexible strap attachments, we'd be going that way, too... but our seats would be heavier and more expensive (at least at first). Sos there are plusses and minuses for both types of attachments.
Deborah -> About the vehicle manufacturer requirements, I've jsut finished compiling the data for the LATCH manual. So here it is. NO, Ford is not the only one. All GM brands allow center use if the CR instructions allow, as do 8 others with a growing list of specific models (listed in the LATCH manual 2007). Three give no advice. But 23 brands still only allow “designated LATCH positions.” Why? Maybe it is theh company lawyers saying they are going to take a strict position of following the standard exactly.
Deborah -> And -- let me reiterate what Rebekah said, that if the manufacturer says not to do it, don't.
momika -> thank you. To continue, Is Britax the only carseat manufacturer that allows outboard LATCH for center install & why?
CPSDarren -> On the issue of LATCH anchor spacing, one can also just look at what happens with carseat installations with a seatbelt. There are hundreds of variations of seatbelts with different spacings and types. Even so, there are usually no exclusions based on these variations. I agree with Deborah that some manufacturers are being far too strict. There may be exceptions for some issues, but probably not in general.
momika -> and I'll tag this along Both SafeGuard and Britax allow center installations with non-standard spacing of 11-20" (provided the vehicle manufacturer also allows this). Chicco allows center Latch installations with spacing of 8-12" for the KeyFit. Why the difference of opinions?
Deborah -> There has been a lot of change here, as the new manual will show. Ten CR manufacturers now allow center rear use with non-standard spacing, twice as many as 2 years ago. This includes Britax, Compass, Dorel, Fisher-Price, Graco, Orbit, Recaro, SafeGuard, Team Tex America, and Triple Play. The spacing allowed is generally 11 to 20 inches – or no specific spacing is mentioned. Five specify only to use designated anchors, and the rest (14 others) do not specifiy. For those that did not allow such use previously, we are trying to find out whether the change is retroactive or not and whether it is listed in their instructions. But they provided the information directly to us, so I trust it.
Deborah -> Of the current manufacturers that allow non-standard spacing, they all have gone to 11-20 inches or no limits specified (except old Fisher-Price Safe Embrace 2, which allows 10-20 inches).
murphydog77 -> Rebekah says: SafeGuard allows installation in the center as long as it’s an approved seating position for LATCH by the vehicle mfg, and as long as the spacing is 11” – 20” from center of lower anchor to center of lower anchor.
Deborah -> Let me correct the information about Chicco. Chicco has told us (very recently) that what was published in the 2005 manual (8 to 12 inches) and confirmed at that time was incorrect for them – and that their seats can only be used with standard 11 inch spacing. So we will be correcting that in the next edition.
momika -> when will the 07 manual be released?
Deborah -> We are working hard to get it done. I'd say it will be out by April. Maybe sooner but don't hold your breath.
CPSDarren -> Great question!
momika -> Deborah, can I go back to the race car drivers?
momika -> Re: race car drivers -- the argument I've heard is that such adults have helmets which are bolted into place preventing neck/spine injury (kids don't have that)....
CPSDarren -> We have time for a few more questions for Deborah
Deborah -> OK, but I'm not an expert on this.
Deborah -> All I can say about larger kids in full harness restraints is that in order to get accurate, real world date, we'll turn to the Partners for Child Passenger Safety research... and I'm sure they will collect it as more kids are in such seats.
momika -> YOu mentioned flexible vs rigid LATCH attachments and how the flexible is cheaper, are there other reasons why more mfgs are not using rigid attachments? (THis probably would have been a good question for REbekah to answer)
momika -> Is there anything we can do to encourage the use of rigid LATCH on more CRs?
Deborah -> Hmmm, not sure what Rebekah would say, but unless the market place wants/buys the products, the costs won't come down. I hope that NHTSA (and all of us) will do a lot more to sell the value of LATCH use -- and expecially tetherh use.
Deborah -> One thing the NHTSA LATCH study showed was that the seats installed with lower attachments were tighter in most cases. Compared to studies of installation with seat belts, where loose seats were much more common.
momika -> Did they compare LATCH installs to lap and shoulder belt installs though?
CPSDarren -> I understand that there was a minor change in a standard about a year ago that may have affected some rigid LATCH infant seats moreso than other models, so it may not have totally been consumer demand that led to their demise.
Deborah -> I think you all would find the LATCH study useful -- and should respond to NHTSA with your experineces, concerns etc. The study is on www.nhtsa.gov (child restraints)
momika -> Are there any proven benefits to using rigid LATCH vs the less expensive flexible attachment?
Deborah -> The proven benefits I have seen have been in side impact test. That makes sense, as the CR cannot swing toward the point of impact. That type of attachment also will either be tight or not installed -- there's not room for adjustment errors.
CPSDarren -> OK 1 more question then we will have to end
momika -> Can you please give us the link to order the LATCH manual again and
momika -> if one were to order a LATCH manual NOW, would it be possible to stipulate that the order be fulfilled once the newest version is available?
CPSDarren -> There was a European study that also showed some benefit to rigid LATCH in side impacts I will find the link
CPSDarren -> This is the last question for Deborah
Deborah -> Certainly, just contact nancy@saferidenews.com or send an order form specifying the new edition.
CPSDarren -> Here it is, Mark
Deborah -> One more thing, people can get CEUs from using the LATCH manual (taking a short quiz) or from subscribing to SRN. For details, see the web site.
CPSDarren -> http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/...-35-inf19e.pdf
momika -> Thank you Deborah!
CPSDarren -> I hope you all enjoyed the session and thank you again to our guests Deborah Stewart ( www.saferidenews.com ) and Rebekah Baranowski ( www.safeguardseat.com) as well as our moderators Monika (momika) and Heather (murphydog77) ! We may continue for a short while even though Deborah has another commitment. We may still have some comments from Rebekah that we can share and after that all are welcome to chat in the main room on any CPS topic.
Deborah -> Thank you -- it was fun!
momika -> Thank YOu Darren for providing us for the opportunity to participate!
murphydog77 -> A big round of virtual applause!
CPSDarren -> I'm glad it worked out well for so many people! For those that need to leave now, you should get 1 CEU of credit for staying the whole time
lovinwaves -> ((CLAP CLAP))
CPSDarren -> You will receive an email to the address you have listed for your account at Car-Seat.Org with a confirmation of your credit. This may take a week or two for me to process. If it is urgent, please send me a private message or email and I will try to expedite this for your recertification.
CPSDarren -> Thank you all for participating in our Q&A session. I hope this is the first one in a series of CEU credit Q&A sessions this year and hopefully we can also resolve the remaining technical issues before the next one! I am currently planning that session and hope it will be in late February or March. The topic will probably be about extended rear-facing. I have invited Dave Clement from Sunshine Kids and Chris Sherwood from the University of Virginia to attend. Both have tentatively agreed subject to mutual availability.
CPSDarren -> Heather, do we have any more responses from Rebekah ?
murphydog77 -> let me check.
momika -> THank you to everyone who asked questions and apologies to everyone whose questions was not asked for them
murphydog77 -> Yes. It's OT, but it's still good. Assuming IMMI makes harnesses for all companies, why does only Graco forbid immersing the harness in water? What is the concern with a wet harness? When a damp sponge doesn't do the job, what *is* the best way to clean a harness?
murphydog77 -> While IMMI provides much of the industry with their harness needs, we don’t supply all of them. The concern is more with the cleaning agents that would be used than with the water itself. Especially in cases when the webbing passes thru an adjuster of some type. It is up to each individual manufacturer to define their cleaning practices. While I can’t comment on the industry as a whole, I can tell you what we do on our seats. SafeGuard has opened up the cleaning recommendations on the SafeGuard Child Seat’s harness, and these changes will be included in the next manual revision. Because the harness is a continuous piece of webbing and doesn’t pass thru any type of adjuster, our instructions will say: “The harness straps may be wiped clean with warm water and mild soap. Allow to air dry. If harness straps cannot be wiped clean, the harness may be immersed in warm water for up to ten minutes. The water may not contain soap. Rinse the harness straps under warm running water and allow to air dry.” It goes on to say not to iron straps or use any harsh detergents, chemicals, or bleach.
Deborah -> As for the question about race car drivers and their helmet/head/neck support, that is probably correct, however if you think of the speeds they crash at, it's several orders of magnitude different. I have seen a recent computer-simulated study of pregnant women with a 4-point belt (criss-cross arrangement).
Deborah -> You all are welcome. Glad you participated. Good questions.
