purplemama
New member
Just curious as to any hard data to back this up. I know why but not in any way I can put into words to tell someone else, KWIM?
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Why are OHS and 3 point infant buckets not the best choice?
- Thread starter purplemama
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That's a loaded question 
I'll start with the OHS because it's an easier question to answer.
In a forward facing impact, in particular, the harness is what bears the force of the impact, directing into various places on the body. With an OHS (which in effect operates as a 3 point harness), the points of contact with the shell are between the legs and at the two shoulders. So you have the force of the accident, divided into thirds. (OHS makers claim the shield creates the fourth and fifth points of the harness, on either side of the hips but in reality those 'points' are so far away from the child's body they're useless, esp. in a side impact accident)
With a five point harness, the energy of the crash is directed into FIVE places...the two shoulders, the two femurs, and the pelvis. Energy of the crash/divided into fifths, rather than third. The more diffuse the spread of energy, the less likely any one part of the child to suffer a serious injury.
Now with three point infant seats, that's more of geographical problem. In a rear facing accident, the SHELL of the seat bears the brunt of the force, not the harness, so those five points are not so crucial. However, all in all, American 3-point seats were very poorly designed. The crotch strap was often down at the end of the shell ....near the TOES of a newborn, instead of safely between the legs. The shell was wide, creating a lot of room especially in a side impact accident. It would be very easy for a child to come flying right out of the harness in an accident.
Now European buckets are ALSO three points, but designed so well you don't have the same concerns. The crotch strap is designed to fit snugly at the baby's pelvis, the shell is narrow and keeps the child's body and spine in line. No risk of ejection and the harness fits the baby perfectly.
I'll start with the OHS because it's an easier question to answer.
In a forward facing impact, in particular, the harness is what bears the force of the impact, directing into various places on the body. With an OHS (which in effect operates as a 3 point harness), the points of contact with the shell are between the legs and at the two shoulders. So you have the force of the accident, divided into thirds. (OHS makers claim the shield creates the fourth and fifth points of the harness, on either side of the hips but in reality those 'points' are so far away from the child's body they're useless, esp. in a side impact accident)
With a five point harness, the energy of the crash is directed into FIVE places...the two shoulders, the two femurs, and the pelvis. Energy of the crash/divided into fifths, rather than third. The more diffuse the spread of energy, the less likely any one part of the child to suffer a serious injury.
Now with three point infant seats, that's more of geographical problem. In a rear facing accident, the SHELL of the seat bears the brunt of the force, not the harness, so those five points are not so crucial. However, all in all, American 3-point seats were very poorly designed. The crotch strap was often down at the end of the shell ....near the TOES of a newborn, instead of safely between the legs. The shell was wide, creating a lot of room especially in a side impact accident. It would be very easy for a child to come flying right out of the harness in an accident.
Now European buckets are ALSO three points, but designed so well you don't have the same concerns. The crotch strap is designed to fit snugly at the baby's pelvis, the shell is narrow and keeps the child's body and spine in line. No risk of ejection and the harness fits the baby perfectly.
joolsplus3
Admin - CPS Technician
Anyone know where that picture of Defrost's baby is, falling sideways out of the three point infant seat and looking like he's strangling? Yikes, to put it mildly (it was tightened properly, fit him, but with no straps to hold his lower body in place, he wriggled right out of it--it's definitely differently designed from the European seats Maedze described!).
And there's this page about Shields... http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/fivepointshield.aspx
Though fortunately, we are just waiting for all the shield seats to expire (They were on the Scenera and Tribute as recently as maybe 1-2 years ago, but are no longer in production), and are there even any 3-pt infant seats that aren't expired anymore? There may be some 'institutional'--free, hospital provided seats that are still three point, I think?
And there's this page about Shields... http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/fivepointshield.aspx
Though fortunately, we are just waiting for all the shield seats to expire (They were on the Scenera and Tribute as recently as maybe 1-2 years ago, but are no longer in production), and are there even any 3-pt infant seats that aren't expired anymore? There may be some 'institutional'--free, hospital provided seats that are still three point, I think?
aclayton74
Active member
The only thing I liked about OHS seats was that you could put french fries on the shield it was like a little table. I cringe everytime I think about how my older boys used to ride in them.
I cringe everytime I think about how my older boys used to ride in them.purplemama
New member
My neighbors had a 3 point evenflo discovery that was manufactured in '07 (I think). I gave them my 5 point embrace to use instead but I just couldn't get my point across as to why the 3 point was bad. They have a OHS that someone gave them that I know they will be using soon and I just want to be able to have some back up facts to tell them when they ask for help installing it.
nak
the discovery was also recalled for flying off the base. did she get the fix?
i have that seat. i use it to hold Laine in while i do checks. i would never use it in the car. plus i doubt it'd fit, since the handle needs to be down plus 1.5" of clearance. and i sit with my seat all the way up in an suv!
wendy
the discovery was also recalled for flying off the base. did she get the fix?
i have that seat. i use it to hold Laine in while i do checks. i would never use it in the car. plus i doubt it'd fit, since the handle needs to be down plus 1.5" of clearance. and i sit with my seat all the way up in an suv!
wendy
Pixels
New member
The other thing about OHS, in North America, is that it's just a hard piece of plastic with a thin piece of cloth over it. That is what your baby's face is going to slam into. European OHS seats, the shield is made out of EPS foam (or similar) so it actually absorbs and distributes crash forces.
purplemama
New member
She bought it at Mom-to-Mom sale. I was able to get them to use the embrace instead but they won't put the handle down :thumbsdown:.
Jonah Baby
New member
Evenflo's handles, when up, like to shatter and puncture little babies in accidents.
Wasn't there another sad story recently about a baby bleeding out on scene due to the handle shattering into its neck?
I discovered with OHS seats that it is sometimes difficult to judge weather or not the harness is tightened enough OR it is difficult to get tightened enough due to the buckle being so far away from the child's crotch.
Once I learned the importance of a snug harness I realized that if my child wasn't snug in this OHS seat, his chest/face would be slammed into the hard plastic shield upon impact. That would surely cause deathly injury in most accidents.
Oh, there were also too many incidents where we thought the buckle had clicked into the seat, but going over a bump caused the shield to spring up, taking my child by the neck with it! It isn't easy to buckle these seats properly, especially if someone has bigger hands or the child is wearing thicker clothing.
I owned a 3-point infant seat as well. To get the harness snug enough to keep him from sliding all the way down to the crotch buckle, it had to be squishing his shoulders and chest a LOT. At the time I did not know to put a rolled blanket between the buckle and him, which is sadly common with other parents as well. Another factor of poor design for these seats!
My 3-point was also a rear adjust. With rear adjust seats there is greater chance that the harness will not be properly snugged - it is difficult and annoying to adjust them nearly every time!
Wasn't there another sad story recently about a baby bleeding out on scene due to the handle shattering into its neck?
I discovered with OHS seats that it is sometimes difficult to judge weather or not the harness is tightened enough OR it is difficult to get tightened enough due to the buckle being so far away from the child's crotch.
Once I learned the importance of a snug harness I realized that if my child wasn't snug in this OHS seat, his chest/face would be slammed into the hard plastic shield upon impact. That would surely cause deathly injury in most accidents.
Oh, there were also too many incidents where we thought the buckle had clicked into the seat, but going over a bump caused the shield to spring up, taking my child by the neck with it! It isn't easy to buckle these seats properly, especially if someone has bigger hands or the child is wearing thicker clothing.
I owned a 3-point infant seat as well. To get the harness snug enough to keep him from sliding all the way down to the crotch buckle, it had to be squishing his shoulders and chest a LOT. At the time I did not know to put a rolled blanket between the buckle and him, which is sadly common with other parents as well. Another factor of poor design for these seats!
My 3-point was also a rear adjust. With rear adjust seats there is greater chance that the harness will not be properly snugged - it is difficult and annoying to adjust them nearly every time!
IndyColtsChick8977
New member
thanks but an OHS as you call them saved my life and I wish they were on the seats today..
carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
OHS seats can save lives. "Better" seats can save more lives. :twocents:
My uncle was saved being thrown from the car rather than seatbelted in. Doesn't mean a sample of one is the basis of safety, luckily. I'm VERY glad it did, don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled for you. What was different about the OHS that made it work better than a five point harness, though? Studies or real life data have found that a five point harness distributes forces better and is more likely to result in lesser injuries than an OHS. When OHS or T shields or whatever else was out there was all that was on the market they saved far more lives than riding in nothing. But that doesn't mean they're the best. Nor is what we have now the best, but it's the best we have now. When Piper's kids are in seats I'm not going to wish for a seat that only rear faced to 35 pounds and forward faced to 50. I'm going to want the very latest in technology for my grandkids.
Wendy
IndyColtsChick8977
New member
The state police told my mom that the OHS absorbed the impact and caused virutally no injuries to me and my sisters from the impact of the semi hitting us head on at 50 mph. I shudder to see the injuries from the 5 point harness being in the same position. My sisters and I were all in OHS (ages 5, 4 and 2) at the time of the incident.. my parents were hurt badly and their seats hit us when the crash happened and our OHS absorbed the impact of the front seats crushing into us. Without the OHS we would have been killed by the seats because there is virtually no protection with the 5 point harness if the seats were to crash into the car seat like ours did it would end up crushing the child. I shudder when I think that I am putting my daughter in danger if the same thing were to happen again. I know my sisters and I and our parents were never the same after the accident. And that was 1982. And if we had been rearfacing we would have been killed or smothered when the front seat threw us into the backseat and the backseat collapsed for this reason I will not ERF I totally support carseat use but not ERF. I am alive today because my parents chose to FF me and my sisters.
SavsMom
New member
Sounds like it was a very serious accident. I am glad that you all were okay and that your seats did the job they were intended to do, however it seems your case is rare and that more children have been hurt by OHS than not - having said that I think that is the point a lot of the techs are trying to make is that the risks of using an OHS outweigh the benefits, especially with all of the advanced testing and technology that is available today.
In regards to your point on rear facing - isn't this where cocooning (sp) comes in - if the rear facing car seat is pushed into the back of the seat? Just wondering for my own knowledge.
In regards to your point on rear facing - isn't this where cocooning (sp) comes in - if the rear facing car seat is pushed into the back of the seat? Just wondering for my own knowledge.
Wow, very scary. And of course it's your choice not to ERF. Luckily cars now are far more advanced and the front seats will move forward a lot more to help front seat passengers ride down the collision. And that helps rear passengers not strike the front seats. And with crumple zones the passenger compartment is far more likely to stay intact, rather than misshapen like your parents' car did, so the front seats are less likely to move backward, between those two things.
Here, look at this video. This is probably the era car, give or take a few years, that your family was riding in in 1982. Look at the differences in current cars. That is true for cars and carseats. So while your accident ended well, most in your case would not, and rear facing would have done better. Yes, the seats would have cocooned and hit the backseat, but the shell of the seat would have protected your spines.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ygYUYia9I&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Fifth Gear Crash-test Volvo 940 estate vs Renault Modus[/ame]
(skip to the five minute mark if you don't want to watch the whole thing)
However, as it has been proven to be 500% safer to ERF, and OHS have been shown to be less safe, while it is your choice to do with your kids as you will, it's probably not the best idea to advocate that parents make the same, possibly fatal, decisions for their own kids. Carseats are playing the odds. There are some crashes that are unsurvivable, no matter how hard we try. There will be some crashes, like yours, like my uncle's, where freak things will happen. But you want to keep your kids as safe as possible for the most likely injuries, not the least likely. And so for that it means rear facing as long as possible because that helps protect against 96% of all major collisions.
Wendy
steph_s
New member
You are EXTREMELY lucky, it had nothing to do with the OHS seat "protecting you"! How do I know this? My cousin, niece and nephew were killed by OHS seats! A vehicle slammed into the van they were in at 30mph while they were at a red light. The OHS on the seat killed them. The seats were installed correctly (surprisingly) and the straps were adjusted correctly also. My cousin died of internal injuries caused by the shield after 4 surgeries and 3 days in the hospital. My niece died when she slammed into the shield and her ribs broke puncturing her heart. My nephew died because his skull was crushed blocking his air way when his head slammed into the shield. The only ones to walk out of the accident alive was the person driving (no injuries) and my other cousin who was in a booster seat. The OHS did NOT save their lives it was the reason why they are dead today! The overhead shield is what killed 3 innocent children who didn't even have time to live their lives and what tore an entire family apart in an instant. So much so that the makers of the ohs seats they were in settled a lawsuit filled by my family for a huge amount of money because it was their products bad design that killed them. I believe directly after that is when that brand stopped making them, but I can't remember the exact details to be honest. I sort of wanted to make it all go away and bock it out.
As for the ERF comment. Vehicle seats are not made the same as they were in 1982. In 1982 they weren't re-enforced at all! Considering the head excursion rates of young children in ff seats I would worry about even minor accidents harming them. Now if you think about it logically... a 50mph impact by an 18 wheeler is fairly uncommon compared to minor rear ending sort of collisions at say 35mph. A 35mph collision can do major damage to a child who is ff so young and it's much more likely to happen.
IndyColtsChick8977
New member
Had we been RF we would have smothered because hit head on with the semi and then rear ended with a Honda behind us so our car was pancaked. Everyone can say what they want but I know that car seat did what it was supposed to do save my life it cracked at the impact and the state police knew it absorbed that impact to save me and my sisters. In fact they used our seats as examples for awhile as to promote car seat usage and safety.
It very well may have saved your life, but they are still vastly inferior to the current style of seats. They may 'look' more impressive to the untrained eye, but they are still dangerous.
You received blatantly incorrect information about what happened, about why you didn't die, and about rear facing.
The five point harness provides vastly more impact protection than those OHS shields, which actually injure or kill children. This is because the OHS impacts a child in such a way that internal organs are bruises, causing internal injuries and bleeding. The 5 point harness restrains the child on the strongest bones of the body, leaving no internal injuries.
Your understanding of ERF is extremely skewed. In the exact scenario you described, you would have been less likely to suffer injuries in a rear facing seat.
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