Rear Facing Britax Slam: How Would You Respond

Casby · Nov 21, 2009

After a fatal accident down the road I emailed some neighbors some links to articles encouragin them to consider keeping their kids extended rear facing/5pt harnesses.

I have my 3.5YO DD in a Boulevard and this particular response troubled me. Does this have merit... or is this particular concern addressed by tethering?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Another problem with the rear facing: The bigger Britax ones score miserably on the crash tests if installed rear facing. They give in too much possibly smushing the kid into the rear of the seat. They score high forward facing but not backward. We used to have the Evenflo which is cheaper and better than the Britax.

And in the U.S., Consumer Reports doesn’t do crash testing with the seats. In German equivalent of AAA does that every year and you can pull the reports off the internet. Then you can buy the top rating seats through AAA. There are seats that are bad, bad. Here all they test is “ease of use” as if that would mean that much!
"

An Aurora · Nov 21, 2009

Wow, someone is badly misinformed.

Info on cocconing:

he first U.S. infant restraint, which is the model for subsequent ones, did not use a tether in either direction nor a shoulder belt, but it worked very well. During development, the engineers observed that it turned over toward the vehicle seatback after a crash test and, largely in order to justify what happened anyway, they called this the "cocoon effect." There was also some justifiable concern that the small infant's neck might be injured on rebound or rear-impact unless the restraint were allowed to freely rotate in this direction. Justified or not, this concept has remained and seems to make intuitive sense. The counter-argument that the infant's head will "slam" into the seatback and be injured on rebound has not been validated in over 30 years of crash experience...

Although crash experience indicates that rebound of infant-only restraints in frontal impacts does not cause serious injury, similar movement of a rear-facing restraint can also occur during a severe rear impact or offset rear impact, which can result in serious injury or death if the infant's head hits the rear door pillar of a sedan, the rear window of a pickup, or some other hard surface. As larger and heavier infants are carried rear-facing, the chance of an infant's head hitting a hard part of the vehicle is greater. Tethering a rear-facing convertible CR to the floor can reduce the risk of head and facial injuries in rear and side crashes by reducing head excursion.

That's from the CPS Technical Encylopedia, found here.

NannyMom · Nov 21, 2009

From what we recently saw in the Canadian NCAP tests, the Britax seats performed better RF than FF (or so I think). A carseat that is tethered Swedish style (Like most Britaxes are) won't smush the child into the rear of the seat. Most other rear facing seats look likey they do that, but it's just rebound and is safer than having spinal damage from forward facing too young.

Jennifer mom to my 7 · Nov 21, 2009

Pull there crash test results apart. AFAIK, the seats weren't the best with latch rf, but fine with the seatbelt. ANd yes, rf tethering fixes the rebound issue they are talking about. And, even though it looks bad in the tests, there isn't injury done to the dummies that way. ANd, if they do have an evenflo triumph advance, good for them! Tell them that the seat will rear face to 35 pounds, forward face to 50, and probably last the average child to around age 5 or so. So, let them know they can rear face in their uber safe consumer reports seat to 35 pounds:thumbsup: (now let's hope it is the advance, and not the damn titan

)

And CR does crash test, they are just good at screwing them up. In Germany, they do do some great crash testing, but only on seats available in Germany, not in the US. So, our britax seats are not tested there.

ANd then, just let it go. They most likely saw your comment as a slam on their parenting, rather than just the information you wanted to present, so they wanted to slam your decision, kwim?

cookie123 · Nov 21, 2009

Ask for a link to the testing they found.

monstah · Nov 21, 2009

Casby said:
"Another problem with the rear facing:

"Another"
I'm curious what their first problem was?

Casby · Nov 21, 2009

Thanks for the help!!!! I don't post much but I have spent many, many hours here learning about car seats from you wise folks and I should have known enough to get paranoid!

"Another"
I'm curious what their first problem was?

Yeah, I think she might have been captain of the debate team. The text I posted was actually from one of 4 emails I received. She had concerns that people using a 5pt harness on a heavy child might be unaware of Latch weight limits for their car/my seat hence boosters are better... also that there are school carpool rules against 5pt harnessed seats therefore you have to use a booster. And a few other issues... I delt with most of them but this one had me a little surprised!

ANd then, just let it go. They most likely saw your comment as a slam on their parenting, rather than just the information you wanted to present, so they wanted to slam your decision, kwim?

I hear that!

sunnymw · Nov 21, 2009

I've never heard of school carpool rules against 5pt harnesses. But then again my kids aren't in school yet

Crazy!

Carrie_R · Nov 21, 2009

...that there are school carpool rules against 5pt harnessed seats therefore you have to use a booster...

Your school has rules against 5pt harnessed seats?! I think I'd flip my lid if the kids' school tried to tell me I couldn't have my kid in the safest appropriate option for them... which, if my child is in a harness, is not a booster in that moment!

henrietta · Nov 21, 2009

I wouldn't. Respond that is. Sometimes, for your own sanity, it's best to just let it go. She's not as smart as she thinks she is, so whatever. Her kid is in a good, safe carseat--hopefully, installed correctly--so let it go. GL!

InternationalMama · Nov 21, 2009

It's interesting that she mentions testing for ease of use because the ADAC (that German organization she mentions) puts a lot of weight on ease of use themselves, which is part of the reason why forward facing seats often get higher marks than rear facing seats because they are easier to install/use. As far as I know none of the seats tested by the ADAC in Germany for extended rear facing are available in the US so if she is only willing to use those it would mean forward facing after the infant bucket. :thumbsdown:

Is this person from overseas? The reliance on the ADAC, lack of interest in rear facing, and wanting to use boosters early all sound like practices that are common in Europe. If that's true you're unlikely to change their mind, but who knows, if they really like the ADAC there are some nice Swedish ERF seats they could import. Or perhaps that's what she's suggesting for you?

BookMama · Nov 21, 2009

henrietta said:
I wouldn't. Respond that is. Sometimes, for your own sanity, it's best to just let it go. She's not as smart as she thinks she is, so whatever. Her kid is in a good, safe carseat--hopefully, installed correctly--so let it go. GL!

I think I agree with this. You're not likely to win her over to RF regardless, and you're just going to end up getting into a point-by-point argument with her if you keep replying. :twocents:

Carrie_R said:
...that there are school carpool rules against 5pt harnessed seats therefore you have to use a booster...

I'd like to see them help my 8YO buckle a booster in my 3-across setup.

It's much easier for him to be self-sufficient in the pickup lane when he's in a harnessed seat!

Casby · Nov 22, 2009

I think I agree with this. You're not likely to win her over to RF regardless, and you're just going to end up getting into a point-by-point argument with her if you keep replying.

I think I am just dropping it with her. She's the debater type! Her kids are aged 4 and 6 in booster seats, so I think her rear facing concerns are just to either justify previous decisions or to show her "knowledge" of car seats!

Is this person from overseas?

Yes, German.

Carrie_R · Nov 22, 2009

I'd like to see them help my 8YO buckle a booster in my 3-across setup.

Yes, this! They get annoyed when they have to climb half-in the van to unbuckle a booster, then they act like they've never seen a 5pt before... what do they want?! It's a daycare van, so yes, I have a lot of seats. (Sorry for the OT, lol.)

InternationalMama · Nov 22, 2009

Casby said:
Yes, German.

When I was installing my Hi-Way in Germany our neighbor came over and said (in all seriousness) "I think you're putting it in backwards." When I assured him that no, this was the directions it was supposed to face, he said, "Oh, I've only ever seen them facing the other way."

I would just drop it if I were you, like you say. But I believe the tides are going to turn in Germany when it comes to carseat safety and the carseats will turn too. Maybe someday someone will change her mind, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen now.

Jennifer mom to my 7 · Nov 22, 2009

InternationalMama said:
When I was installing my Hi-Way in Germany our neighbor came over and said (in all seriousness) "I think you're putting it in backwards." When I assured him that no, this was the directions it was supposed to face, he said, "Oh, I've only ever seen them facing the other way."

I would just drop it if I were you, like you say. But I believe the tides are going to turn in Germany when it comes to carseat safety and the carseats will turn too. Maybe someday someone will change her mind, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen now.

Yup, this

I have an internet "aquaintence" I guess, that is living in Germany as a civilian. She is the host of several Germany boards traveling boards, etc, and is seeing a trend. The seats are coming, though slowly. And, the word is spreading, slowly but surely, about rear facing there. Now, if we could just adopt their booster laws

thepote · Nov 22, 2009

sunnymw said:
I've never heard of school carpool rules against 5pt harnesses. But then again my kids aren't in school yet

I have only heard of it in relation to a potential for real or mistaken/unintentional sex-offender type touching when buckling the crotch buckle. Way back when, only the 3-pt shield type harnessed seats were allowed on some buses because you just plugged the buckle in.

Rear Facing Britax Slam: How Would You Respond

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