Untethered Harness or booster for 5 year old?

Genevieve

CPST Instructor
5 year old is booster trained, though not in one regularly. Would it be better to have him in an untethered FF seat (GN) or a booster (parkway)? The only reason I hesitate for the booster is that there will be several other kids in the car and he *might* get distracted, though he is really good in a booster, generally. I hate the idea of an untethered FF seat. So what do you think would be better in this case?
 
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BigDaddy

Active member
5 year old is booster trained, though not in one regularly. Would it be better to have him in an untethered FF seat (GN) or a booster (parkway)? The only reason I hesitate for the booster is that there will be several other kids in the car and he *might* get distracted, though he is really good in a booster, generally. I hate the idea of an untethered FF seat. So what do you think would be better in this case?
Have you checked into getting a tether anchor installed? That would be the way to go. If adding a TA isn't an option, I would definitely go for a booster over an untethered harness.
 

KaysKidz

Senior Community Member
Why do you hate the idea of a untethered harnessed seat? Sure, it's not ideal, but it passed testing. I'd rather have them in that then a booster. Of course, the kids I transport are HORRID booster riders. "I" am more apt to get in a wreck with them in a booster then when harnessed. Yes, they are THAT bad.
 

christineka

New member
I'd also go for the untethered nautilus. It passed testing nicely. I have had a 5 yo boy in a booster and he drove me crazy moving all around and out of the belt.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I agree. If he fits properly in the Nautilus I'd go for that over a booster, especially in a distractable situation.

Wendy
 

DahliaRW

New member
Older kids are going to experience more head excursion in a harness/untethered seat than in a booster. If he can sit properly in the belt, I'd do a booster. If not the nautilus, but I would try my best to get a tether anchor installed. But, if he can't sit properly he'll be safer harnessed regardless. If he can sit properly, he's just as safe in a booster.


Why do you hate the idea of a untethered harnessed seat? Sure, it's not ideal, but it passed testing. I'd rather have them in that then a booster. Of course, the kids I transport are HORRID booster riders. "I" am more apt to get in a wreck with them in a booster then when harnessed. Yes, they are THAT bad.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
Why do you hate the idea of a untethered harnessed seat? Sure, it's not ideal, but it passed testing. I'd rather have them in that then a booster. Of course, the kids I transport are HORRID booster riders. "I" am more apt to get in a wreck with them in a booster then when harnessed. Yes, they are THAT bad.

I posed that on the thread where people advised a mom to put her 5yr old in a booster in the third row where there were no tethers (and none could be added) over putting his harnessed seat he was currently using back there (and he HAD to be moved... siblings at war)

I asked why that was so... I just couldn't decide for myself if that was a good idea... and I've gone back and forth on it and I would prefer untethered harness over a booster for age 5.. age 6 would be dependent upon the child just because of bones and all that... but still, harnessing is safer, so if the kid is happy in the seat, why move to a booster just because there is no tether?
 

Maedze

New member
Kat_Momof3;1063910.. but still said:
harnessing is safer[/B], so if the kid is happy in the seat, why move to a booster just because there is no tether?

That is not correct. There is zero evidence to show that harnessing is safer than boostering for a child old enough and mature enough to be in a booster.

There IS evidence showing that an untethered harnessed seat for an older child can have extensive head excursion, to the point that I would nearly universally recommend a good belt positioning booster for a child who meets the minimums over an untethered harnessed seat.
 

Genevieve

CPST Instructor
It all worked out and I was able to use a tether for all 3 FF'ers. It was a one-time deal in a van that is an '04 so installing more anchors isn't an option anyway.

I really don't like the idea of an untethered harness for bigger kids. Higher head excursion, etc. Plus, even though he's 5, he really is great in a booster and he does ride in one occasionally. It was just the fact that other children were in the car and I wasn't going to be there to make sure he stayed sitting properly.

Thanks for all the input!
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
That is not correct. There is zero evidence to show that harnessing is safer than boostering for a child old enough and mature enough to be in a booster.

There IS evidence showing that an untethered harnessed seat for an older child can have extensive head excursion, to the point that I would nearly universally recommend a good belt positioning booster for a child who meets the minimums over an untethered harnessed seat.

At this point, we don't have truly conclusive info. supported by real world data collection and comparative studies to truly say boostering is better than harnessing for older kids, nor vice versa, and I'm puzzled by the statements about evidence to support boostering vs. 5-point harnessing untethered. :twocents: Is this based on looking at TC in-vehicle crash tests that exceeded current standards and represented misuse in many cases, or NHTSA fiscal year compliance bench testing, and/or from statements without hard substantiating data from Sweden perhaps, a country that doesn't significantly have HWH seats in use to truly compare HWH vs. boostering older kids in real world scenarios? :confused: While I understand wanting black and white answers and everything cut and dry to formulate recommendations or decide how to transport our own children, I don't think we can draw definitive conclusions either way at this point due to an absence of fully comparative information. :twocents:
 

Mom2FiveGirls

Active member
Well, I'm officially scared! My 5 year old is in an untethered nautilus. I drive a 2000 Ford Excursion and according to the owners manual there is 1 tether anchor on the third row...on one of the outboard positions (I looked quickly and didn't see it). Well, I can't put DD#3 (the 5 year old...37 lbs and 43ish inches BTW) outboard because DD#1 and DD#2 are on each side of her in turbo boosters (which obviously can't be used in the center because of the lap belt only). I thought everyone was safe and sound now (DD#4 and DD#5 are in the second rown...DD#4 outboard in a GN and DD#5 RFing in a MR in the center. The other outboard seat is folded down to provide access to the third row) but now I'm worried about DD#3 in an untethered seat! Can I get a tether anchor installed for the third row center seat???
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
At this point, we don't have truly conclusive info. supported by real world data collection and comparative studies to truly say boostering is better than harnessing for older kids, nor vice versa,

I agree. I personally prefer booster vs. untethered harness for older kids, but that's a personal bias and I try to make that clear. My issue is with the PP's statement that "harnessing is safer" -- I don't think we can say that, just like we can't say that boostering is safer.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Well, I'm officially scared! My 5 year old is in an untethered nautilus. I drive a 2000 Ford Excursion and according to the owners manual there is 1 tether anchor on the third row...on one of the outboard positions (I looked quickly and didn't see it). Well, I can't put DD#3 (the 5 year old...37 lbs and 43ish inches BTW) outboard because DD#1 and DD#2 are on each side of her in turbo boosters (which obviously can't be used in the center because of the lap belt only). I thought everyone was safe and sound now (DD#4 and DD#5 are in the second rown...DD#4 outboard in a GN and DD#5 RFing in a MR in the center. The other outboard seat is folded down to provide access to the third row) but now I'm worried about DD#3 in an untethered seat! Can I get a tether anchor installed for the third row center seat???

The LATCH manual -- not infallible, but generally good -- says there are no tether anchors in the third row of a 2000 Excursion. Can you double-check your owner's manual? Additional tether anchors cannot be installed in vehicles that came equipped with anchors, and yours did.

About the seating? I acknowledge a preference for booster over untethered harness for kids who meet the minimums, and that that is a personal preference and not an official recommendation. But at 37# your child does not meet the best practice minimums for boostering, so I'd keep her harnessed.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
What a tether does is reduces head excursion from 32" to 28" (with 0" being the middle of the backseat as it stands vertically). Is it important? Yes. Is it going to kill your child to not have one? No. It's required with LATCH, it's required on some seats over certain weights or with certain installs (and I can count those special seats on one hand. Two if you head into special needs seats), otherwise each and every seat has passed testing with a lap belt only, no top tether. So I wouldn't stress too much about it. You're in the gray area of safer versus safest for that child, and then moreso when you look at your overall configuration. The only thing I might change in yours, if you had a tether anchor in the middle of the middle is to move the rear facing child to the middle of the third row. Otherwise, if there's no tether in that position either, or the MR doesn't install in between the two boosters, then your kids are as safe in your car as they possibly can be, and don't lose sleep over it. If you could get tethers, fine. If you can't, don't stress. Like I said, there are very few seats that fail testing without a tether.

Wendy
 

Pixels

New member
The federal standard for head excursion for untethered harness is exactly the same as the limit for head excursion for boosters. Based on the legal minimums, neither is safer than the other.

A child who is not ready for a booster (physically and developmentally) is safer in a harnessed seat, even if that harnessed seat is untethered. If the child is not mature enough to stay in position, the child is not ready for a booster, and would be safer in a harness.
 

Maedze

New member
At this point, we don't have truly conclusive info. supported by real world data collection and comparative studies to truly say boostering is better than harnessing for older kids, nor vice versa, and I'm puzzled by the statements about evidence to support boostering vs. 5-point harnessing untethered. :twocents: Is this based on looking at TC in-vehicle crash tests that exceeded current standards and represented misuse in many cases, or NHTSA fiscal year compliance bench testing, and/or from statements without hard substantiating data from Sweden perhaps, a country that doesn't significantly have HWH seats in use to truly compare HWH vs. boostering older kids in real world scenarios? :confused: While I understand wanting black and white answers and everything cut and dry to formulate recommendations or decide how to transport our own children, I don't think we can draw definitive conclusions either way at this point due to an absence of fully comparative information. :twocents:

I want to clarify that I was not recommending boostering over a tethered harnessed seat. At the very least, they're both very, very, very safe. It's when it gets untethered that it gets dicey...there's such a huge range of allowed head excursion there. The bigger the kid, the further the head goes, and we all know most kids don't have 32" of clearance.
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
Dicey, yes, but again we're in a gray zone and we don't have conclusive evidence to urge boostering over untethered harnessing, or vice versa. It's important to clarify that it remains a gray area from which one can't readily make sweeping recommendations.
 

Mom2FiveGirls

Active member
The LATCH manual -- not infallible, but generally good -- says there are no tether anchors in the third row of a 2000 Excursion. Can you double-check your owner's manual? Additional tether anchors cannot be installed in vehicles that came equipped with anchors, and yours did.

About the seating? I acknowledge a preference for booster over untethered harness for kids who meet the minimums, and that that is a personal preference and not an official recommendation. But at 37# your child does not meet the best practice minimums for boostering, so I'd keep her harnessed.

Here is what the owner's guide says about tether anchorage hardware:

"A tethered seat can be installed in the front passenger seat. Put the tether strap over the seatback and attach it to an anchor bracket.

Anchor brackets can be bolted to the rear edge of the front passenger seat cushion. The bolt holes are in the bottom of the rear edge of the front passenger seat cushion frame. The anchor bracket must be installed using the instructions provided with the kit.

Tether anchorage hardware kits (part number .......) including instructions may be obtained at no charge from any Ford or Lincoln/Mercury dealer.

All second row and third row passenger side seating positions (if equipped) have a fabric strap installed near the bottom of the rear face of the seatback. These straps have a loop at the top, and are to be used for child seat tether anchorages."

I'm more confused than ever. The tether anchorage points for the second row are metal. They are marked with a tether symbol and even SAY "tether anchor point" or something like that. So what's this about a fabric strap with a loop at the top?!?
 

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