FMVSS 213 compliance testing

murphydog77 · Nov 7, 2009

It's a lot of fun brand-bashing, but I'd like to give you some perspective. I'm an old-timer. I've been in CPS either researching for my own child or out of general interest for over 9 years now. I've seen a lot of changes and many of them have come about because of Britax.

Britax has been innovative. They had rear-facing tethers long before anyone could wrap their heads around them. Remember the Roundabout? It had/s the smoothest harness adjuster around. Some of us can't bear to part with our long expired RAs--I wonder why. Britax was the first company around that had a selection of cute covers from which to choose for their seats--remember Flower Power? You had to pay a premium on eBay to get that cover and they almost always sold out immediately. Built-in lockoffs to replace locking clips, easily removed covers, non-twist straps, 5-point harnesses (!), easy to install, etc. These were all innovations that helped push other companies to develop the seats you now love. It took years for SK to come out with the Radian (and the Radian still doesn't have lockoffs). Graco only recently put built-in lockoffs on their infant seats and has only recently come out with a seat, the GN, that has been a hit. The TrueFit is a competitor to the MA that has MA-like features.

I'm not dismissing the numbers on the compliance testing--they've always been there. This is nothing new. No need to panic. Use the seat properly and do your jobs as advocates to teach other parents to use their seats properly.

But remember that you are in a public part of our forums and while you are certainly allowed to have opinions, bashing a brand of carseats accomplishes nothing. All manufacturers have their good points and their bad points and all are constantly striving to improve their products.

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

All those things were great, 10 years ago. I never said they weren't. I'm saying that riding on the coattails of former greatness is extremely problematic.

The fact that they came out with non-twisting straps in 1997 is wonderful, but it doesn't change the fact that right NOW, they are not impressive.

They have nine. different. convertibles on the market right now, and none of them is particularly innovative, unless you count the airbags on the Advocate. Which I don't. And the so called "Click and Safe"? An embarassment.

The True-Fit is not what I would consider to be "MA" like. I think it's hands-down a superior product to the MA.

I'm not opposed to Britax. I've owned multiple Britax seats. I still believe that when I bought my son's Wizard, it was the best convertible money could buy. I loved that thing, and I'm still highly irritated I can't use it right now.

CPS should be looking forward, not back. Britax has the money and the reputation to do something really impressive (big squishy forms on the outside of a Boulevard for nearly 400 dollars does not count!). They've chosen not to. Meanwhile, in the last five years, every other single child restraint company has released impressive products.

I live in an area where Britax-status is rampant. There are Marathons improperly installed in every second Subaru and Prius. Too bad they aren't correctly used My Rides and EFTAs, eh?

carseatcoach · Nov 7, 2009

I don't want to "bash" the brand -- I recently recommended a Regent for a big toddler, and I frequently recommend the convertibles when someone asks what works in the tricky center position of a Subaru. I'm not interested in brand-bashing, but as a phenomenon, I am interested in why so many parents are convinced that "Britax is best". I consider myself an educator, and when there is a popular misconception, I want to know how it starts and what to do about it. It genuinely makes me sad when parents who can't really afford it scrape together $250 for a Boulevard and then they find out it doesn't do what they need it to do.

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

Yes, there are cases where I do recommend a Britax. The Regent, for example, seemed to be the most appropriate seat for the person asking about a seat for an 11 month old the size of your average five year old.

I forgot an innovation....the crotch strap on the booster. Hey, I'll give them that, that was decent

You're not going to catch me 'recommending' the convertibles, though.

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

Chickabiddy, I think it started because, as MurphyDog noted, 10 years ago, they really were nice.

The Roundabout with its 15" top harness position was taller than other convertibles. The covers ARE cute. The seats ARE easy to install. And they're PRICEY and we all know cost is a status symbol.

Well, these things take on legs, it seems, and here we are ten years later, where people still think the Marathon is the king of convertibles. Even though it's not true.

carseatcoach · Nov 7, 2009

You're right -- that's probably how it started. I bought a Roundabout seven years ago and a Marathon five years ago, and I don't regret those purchases. So I do get how it started: I just don't get how it continues.

StillThankful · Nov 7, 2009

murphydog77 said:
It's a lot of fun brand-bashing, but I'd like to give you some perspective. I'm an old-timer. I've been in CPS either researching for my own child or out of general interest for over 9 years now. I've seen a lot of changes and many of them have come about because of Britax.

Britax has been innovative. They had rear-facing tethers long before anyone could wrap their heads around them. Remember the Roundabout? It had/s the smoothest harness adjuster around. Some of us can't bear to part with our long expired RAs--I wonder why. Britax was the first company around that had a selection of cute covers from which to choose for their seats--remember Flower Power? You had to pay a premium on eBay to get that cover and they almost always sold out immediately. Built-in lockoffs to replace locking clips, easily removed covers, non-twist straps, 5-point harnesses (!), easy to install, etc. These were all innovations that helped push other companies to develop the seats you now love. It took years for SK to come out with the Radian (and the Radian still doesn't have lockoffs). Graco only recently put built-in lockoffs on their infant seats and has only recently come out with a seat, the GN, that has been a hit. The TrueFit is a competitor to the MA that has MA-like features.

I'm not dismissing the numbers on the compliance testing--they've always been there. This is nothing new. No need to panic. Use the seat properly and do your jobs as advocates to teach other parents to use their seats properly.

But remember that you are in a public part of our forums and while you are certainly allowed to have opinions, bashing a brand of carseats accomplishes nothing. All manufacturers have their good points and their bad points and all are constantly striving to improve their products.

Thank you for your words of wisdom concerning the innovations of Britax in the past; however, I (and other moms) who have small children still in car seats have a right to vent about Britax at this time. Imagine having your child in a FF Marathon untethered (as myself) thinking everything is fine and then you see the TC video--I was mortified to say the least.

I could have kept my Evenflo Titan (that I gave away) or purchased an EFTA at half the price. Basically, I should have followed Consumer Reports from the get go--but noooooo, everyone on here told me to ignore Consumer Reports b/c of their lack of knowledge of testing carseats and go with Britax. Now, looking back at CR's recommended seats, they are the same ones which passed the 720mm requirement w/o the top tether.

Believe it or not, this site recommended Britax all the way across the board. I was influenced to purchase one by that (even though I couldn't afford it). In return, I influenced others to purchase Britax.

The Britax brand has alot of cutsies--from great cushy covers to the lock-offs; however, I could care less about that if the straps come through the shell. Look at the MT--it did the same thing.

Give us a time to vent--we are directly affected by this at this time.

This too shall pass and maybe one day Britax will seek to redeem itself.

Until then, Britax is not on my list--in fact, I'm waiting to hear a statement from Britax about this--I would like a refund/apology/recall/something to hear that they hold themselves accountable.

It is unacceptable and they will severely be affected by this in the future--financially and reputation wise!

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Thank you for your words of wisdom concerning the innovations of Britax in the past; however, I (and other moms) who have small children still in car seats have a right to vent about Britax at this time. Imagine having your child in a FF Marathon untethered (as myself) thinking everything is fine and then you see the TC video--I was mortified to say the least.

I could have kept my Evenflo Titan (that I gave away) or purchased an EFTA at half the price. Basically, I should have followed Consumer Reports from the get go--but noooooo, everyone on here told me to ignore Consumer Reports b/c of their lack of knowledge of testing carseats and go with Britax. Now, looking back at CR's recommended seats, they are the same ones which passed the 720mm requirement w/o the top tether.

Believe it or not, this site recommended Britax all the way across the board. I was influenced to purchase one by that (even though I couldn't afford it). In return, I influenced others to purchase Britax.

The Britax brand has alot of cutsies--from great cushy covers to the lock-offs; however, I could care less about that if the straps come through the shell. Look at the MT--it did the same thing.

Give us a time to vent--we are directly affected by this at this time.

This too shall pass and maybe one day Britax will seek to redeem itself.

Until then, Britax is not on my list--in fact, I'm waiting to hear a statement from Britax about this--I would like a refund/apology/recall/something to hear that they hold themselves accountable.

It is unacceptable and they will severely be affected by this in the future--financially and reputation wise!

Beg your pardon? You're saying car-seat.org told you that Britax was safer than the EFTA?

I'd really like to see a link to that, because I would never have said that. Nor would I have ever recommended a Britax convertible. Nor would any technician here, I don't think.

The Consumer Report thing stands. They are clueless about child restraints and should be ignored. That has absolutely no bearing on this.

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Until then, Britax is not on my list--in fact, I'm waiting to hear a statement from Britax about this--I would like a refund/apology/recall/something to hear that they hold themselves accountable.

It is unacceptable and they will severely be affected by this in the future--financially and reputation wise!

You honestly think you deserve, or will get an apology or refund?

And I sincerely doubt they will suffer in any shape at all, here.

StillThankful · Nov 7, 2009

Maedze said:
Beg your pardon? You're saying car-seat.org told you that Britax was safer than the EFTA?

I'd really like to see a link to that, because I would never have said that. Nor would I have ever recommended a Britax convertible. Nor would any technician here, I don't think.

The Consumer Report thing stands. They are clueless about child restraints and should be ignored. That has absolutely no bearing on this.

Yes. Ma'am, you can go to my name id: "akearney3" to look at my posts from 2007 and see that I ask about certain car seats and get general recommendations. I'm not sure if all of them will show up but I've asked about AOE, Evenflo Titan 5, and Britax. I hadn't even heard of Britax before this website. Hands down, Britax was recommended--people loved the cushions and ease of installation and safety. I was believer just like many other moms out here--we are just shocked from this new TC footage (and we have a right to be).

I'm a lay person, so I don't know whether the recommendation came from a CPST, CPS, or another mom like myself. But since 2007, Britax has been the #1 seat pushed on here until now.

I know what was being recommended and what wasn't--it sure wasn't the Titan and AOE being recommended.

As far Consumer Reports is concerned, the seats that they recommended since 2007 just so happened to be the seats that passed the 720mm (tethered) requirement without the top tether: Evenflo Titan, Evenflo Triumph, Alpha Omega Elite (I actually purchased the AOE and then asked about it on here--it was talked about so bad that I sold it on Craigslist).

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Yes. Ma'am, you can go to my name id: "akearney3" to look at my posts from 2007 and see that I ask about certain car seats and get general recommendations. I'm not sure if all of them will show up but I've asked about AOE, Evenflo Titan 5, and Britax. I hadn't even heard of Britax before this website. Hands down, Britax was recommended--people loved the cushions and ease of installation and safety. I was believer just like many other moms out here--we are just shocked from this new TC footage (and we have a right to be).

I'm a lay person, so I don't know whether the recommendation came from a CPST, CPS, or another mom like myself. But since 2007, Britax has been the #1 seat pushed on here until now.

I know what was being recommended and what wasn't--it sure wasn't the Titan and AOE being recommended.

.

In 2007, if the choices were Titan 5, an AOE or a Britax Marathon, I would have said Marathon, too. Of course, my actual answer would have been, none of the above, buy an EFTA.

That being said, I am actually offended and upset by the bolded. It is NOT true. It is simply not. I'm a little flabbergasted that you've been here since 2007 and you came away with that.

StillThankful · Nov 7, 2009

Maedze said:
In 2007, if the choices were Titan 5, an AOE or a Britax Marathon, I would have said Marathon, too. Of course, my actual answer would have been, none of the above, buy an EFTA.

That being said, I am actually offended and upset by the bolded. It is NOT true. It is simply not. I'm a little flabbergasted that you've been here since 2007 and you came away with that.

Sorry, I didn't bold this someone else did. But here is the link in which I asked about AOE and some a couple of CPSs recommended Britax'.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=29699

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=29749

Sorry to offend anyone. But I don't like Britax right now. I'm sure I'll get over it.

That was my perception that Britax was recommended--If I'm incorrect, then it won't be the first time that I'm wrong. I could be delusional and read what I wanted to read.

Facts are that I was researching car seats in 2007, looked at Consumer Reports, stumbled upon this website and was impressed by all the adoration Britax was getting. I then purchased a Britax in 07 and now in 09 I'm upset about their performance.

Hindsight is always better than foresight. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody--I was the one who made the ultimate decision to get a Britax based on this website's information. I'm mad at myself not you or anyone on here.

Maedze · Nov 7, 2009

I just read that link. You were told to look into the EFTA. And when you compared the old-style 40 lb AOE to a Boulevard, you were shown why it was not a good comparison and how the products were different.

You were not told by the board to get a Britax. I understand that you are upset, but I'm not sure how grossly insulting people who volunteer their time, money and lives to help other people is going to fix that.

BigDaddy · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Until then, Britax is not on my list--in fact, I'm waiting to hear a statement from Britax about this--I would like a refund/apology/recall/something to hear that they hold themselves accountable.

It is unacceptable and they will severely be affected by this in the future--financially and reputation wise!

What exactly do you feel that they owe you for? I know that it's easy to forget with all the brand bashing, but they did pass the safety tests. As long as they pass the tests, then the design is safe. I'll admit that the TC videos made me nervous about the Marathon, but those tests were done above recommendations, and the Marathon was still deemed to be safe... therefore, I still use mine.

Qarin · Nov 7, 2009

The AOE is NOT the EFTA! The 2007 AOE was horrible, unacceptable, very bad choice for anything but extended rear-facing, for which it was pretty good, and remarkably short-term and dangerously confusing forward-facing (fine as long as you don't use the top slot, but it's very hard to know NOT to use the top slot and the next one down was unlikely to get most kids to age 4).

As Maedze says, between the Titan, the Marathon, and the Alpha-Omega-Elite in 2007... Marathon, hands down. That doesn't mean Britax wins all, but even when you asked that question, AOE vs (Blvd, not Marathon), the EFTA was suggested, outside of your initial parameters (comparing two specific seats).

StillThankful · Nov 7, 2009

Apparently I've made everyone pissed at me so this will be my last hoorah. Have a great weekend with your respective families. God bless.

BigDaddy · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Apparently I've made everyone pissed at me so this will be my last hoorah. Have a great weekend with your respective families. God bless.

I really don't think that anyone is mad at you. It's just that your post came across as very angry and somewhat shocking (for different reasons to different people), and bears further discussion. No one wants to see you get upset or leave.

StillThankful · Nov 7, 2009

BigDaddy said:
I really don't think that anyone is mad at you. It's just that your post came across as very angry and somewhat shocking (for different reasons to different people), and bears further discussion. No one wants to see you get upset or leave.

Thanks for the love.

It's just that in 2007 I got the general impression that people on here loved Britax--that's not a bad thing based on what we knew then.

Sorry that my tone came off mad. I'm disappointed with Britax more than anything--not at Car-Seat org. Maybe I should have worded things better.

But I love this site and respect the people on here including all the CPSs and board. I will be back tomorrow but I'm exhausted. I feel like I've been double and triple banked and I don't have the energy anymore to keep explaining myself.

kittykate · Nov 7, 2009

akearney3 said:
Thanks for the love.

It's just that in 2007 I got the general impression that people on here loved Britax--that's not a bad thing based on what we knew then.

Sorry that my tone came off mad. I'm disappointed with Britax more than anything--not at Car-Seat org. Maybe I should have worded things better.

But I love this site and respect the people on here including all the CPSs and board. I will be back tomorrow but I'm exhausted. I feel like I've been double and triple banked and I don't have the energy anymore to keep explaining myself.

You also have to remember that in 2007, there were not nearly as many HWH seats as there are today. If I recall correctly, the True Fit and the MyRide were non existent and the EFTA was relatively new to the market. :twocents: We've come a long way as far as HWH seats in the last few years.

murphydog77 · Nov 7, 2009

kittykate said:
You also have to remember that in 2007, there were not nearly as many HWH seats as their are today. If I recall correctly, the True Fit and the MyRide were non existent and the EFTA was relatively new to the market. :twocents: We've come a long way as far as HWH seats in the last few years.

Very true. And my point, which apparently I wasn't very clear about making, isn't that Britax was innovative back then, but that it pushed the easy-to-use feature innovations of other companies so that you have competition now. Now you have seats like the EFTA, the TF, the Radian, etc. There has to be someone pushing everyone to put EPS foam in seats because they sure aren't listening to John Q. Public about it (and did JQP know enough to ask for it?). The reason you have such nice features to use now is because Britax had those features available 10 years ago. When my ds outgrew his infant seat 9.5 yrs ago at 22 lbs., my only 30 lbs. rf options for him were the RA and the Century SmartMove. What a choice!

I haven't seen much "Britax is best" lately, but I haven't been on the birth boards in years (my youngest is 7 and her bb is well past the carseat buying stage). Since the TF, EFTA, and Radian have come out, the love has been spread pretty evenly, IMO.

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