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  1. #81
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by crunchierthanthou View Post
    seat|dummy size|ff|upright|tether use|HE

    Evenflo Company Tribute 37812688L1 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) N 673
    Evenflo Company Tribute 37812688L1 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) Y 635
    Evenflo Company Tribute 37812688L1 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) N 579

    so once it did better untethered and once it did worse.

    here's another-

    Graco Children's Products Toddler SafeSeat 8B01NTA2 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) N 643
    Graco Children's Products Toddler SafeSeat 8B01NTA2 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) Y 681
    Graco Children's Products Toddler SafeSeat 8B01NTA2 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) Y 505
    Graco Children's Products Toddler SafeSeat 8B01NTA2 3 Yr. Old (FF)(U) N 551

    maybe I need to retract my earlier statement about always use a tether.
    interesting. Okay, I went back and looked more closely at the tribute data you quoted. what I found was that the one test where the seat did significantly better on head exscursion, was the ONLY test where the lower anchors were used. In all the other tests, the seatbelt was used, with or without top tether. That causes one to think now, doesn't it? Especially with the recent TC testing which seemed to idicate a trend that in most vehicles, using LATCH did in fact seem to produce better results than seatbelt.
    I have to run, will ponder more later.

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

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  3. #82
    Senior Community Member jujumum's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    I'm not certain exactly what you are saying? Are you saying that you have noted instances where a seat performs better without its top tether than with it top tether? A sin, the exact same seat? I find that hard to believe. Can you please give a concrete example of this?
    One thing you have to do is make sure you are comparing not only the same seat, but also the same size dummy. You can not compare different size dummies head excursion with versus without top tether, it needs to be the same size dummy for accurate results. Of course we would expect a bigger dmmy to have more head excursion, so for example, if you have a top tethered 6 year old, and an untetherd 3 year old, the top tethered 6 year old might have more head excursion..that's just because it's a bigger, heavier dummy. Might that explain some of what you are seeing in the HE numbers?
    I wasn't doing a comparison to tether or not with a given seat. I was looking at my particular situation in my particular van with the options I have, and I was only looking at the 3 yo ff dummy.

    Generally seats with lower anchors have top tethers. I don't have lower anchors at all, but I do have one unused seat with a top tether. So, I was comparing the only seat that will fit there (britax) vs. any other seat in the 3rd row. I'd tether any seat in the 2nd row, but only the britax fits the seatbelt stalks. I kind of sort of can also fit a TF ff, with severe bunching at the belt buckle in the 2nd row, too, and that seems do really well with seatbelt/tether (212 HIC, 470 HE).

    Lisa
    DD2 - 9 yrs,, TB lbb/Affix, DS2 - 7 yrs, Chicco Kitfit, TBSS Affix
    DD1 & DS1 safely using adult seat belts (18 yrs & 15 yrs)

  4. #83
    CPS Technician tl01's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoGranola View Post
    Am I correct that the largest dummy used for RF was teh 12 month dummy? And as such, there are no results as to how these seats perform RF for older/larger children?
    I've heard that this is true... and it could be an issue with understanding how RFing seats perform at their max... say 40 lbs.
    DS 7.5 years 71 lbs FFing in:
    a Frontier90, PWSGL 2013
    DS2 3.5 years 35 lbs FFing in:
    Foonf, Frontier 85, SureRide

  5. #84
    CPS Technician christineka's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I am concerned about the scenera. Not sure if I read it wrong or not, but it looked like it didn't do so well untethered. The scenera is a seat that lots of people own either due to finances, because safe kids gave it to them, because they are cheap, or because they don't care about car seats. I see sceneras in lots of vehicles around town. (And all of them ffing too.) Lots of these sceneras that are owned by people who have old vehicles or don't know much about car seats or don't care don't have them tethered.

    While we say just make sure the seat is tethered- there is no such requirement in the US. Many vehicles do not have tether anchors available in every rear seat. Anchoring isn't something known by the masses.
    Christine *mom* to

    Dd1 age 17 (seatbelt), Dd2 age 15 (seatbelt), Ds1 age 14 (seatbelt), Dd4 age 12 (Seatbelt), Ds2 age 10 (Probooster), Dd4 age 7 (rstv), and dd5 age 1 (rfing Pria)

  6. #85
    CPS Technician crunchierthanthou's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    interesting. Okay, I went back and looked more closely at the tribute data you quoted. what I found was that the one test where the seat did significantly better on head exscursion, was the ONLY test where the lower anchors were used. In all the other tests, the seatbelt was used, with or without top tether. That causes one to think now, doesn't it? Especially with the recent TC testing which seemed to idicate a trend that in most vehicles, using LATCH did in fact seem to produce better results than seatbelt.
    I have to run, will ponder more later.
    hmm. that is interesting. I pulled out what I thought were the pertinent columns and skimmed a few. I didn't copy the LA column, only seat, dummy size and orientation, tether use, and HE. Maybe I should go plug that one back in and look again...

  7. #86
    CPS Fanatic StillThankful's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by jujumum
    I just sorted the spreadsheet by age and HE numbers. Many of the seats have better HE scores with a seatbelt only (no tether) than some others (namely Britax) with a seatbelt and top tether.

    Why is it always recommended to use a top tether across the board?

    In my van (no lower anchors), only Britax seats can fit in the row with the top tether (due to my fixed buckle stalks). Any seat can fit in the 3rd row with no tether. Based on the TC videos and these scores, I'm leaning towards putting my nearly 4 yo in a different seat in the 3rd row (namely a GN). Is something wrong with my logic and this plan?
    Your logic seems fine to me. If your car seat scored pretty good without a tether, then go for it; however, using the top tether is the best protections against HE.


    On another note, I drank the Britax koolaid a long time ago. Why? Why was I a 'believer'? Because, when I had my first two I couldn't afford a Britax. There is this perception out there (not on this board, of course) with the masses that Britax is the most expensive and the best, and that since it has a name and costs so much more, then it must be better. I wanted the Britax - made in USA and $$$$.

    Now, I feel like I've been dupped by the Britax mythology and disappointed and somewhat angry at the company.
    I agree. I feel like I was sucked into the belief that Britax was the best. I couldn't even afford it--had to beg my parents to get them for me. Now, I'm stuck with two seats that I could care less for--I'll still use them for RF though for DD2--but when she has to FF, you better believe that I will not get another Britax).

    Based on the TC videos, these scores, and actually comparing the design and construction of the GN compared to the Britax convertibles & FN, it is my new love. Oh, and the video of the harness ripping through the MT ff also helped to cure me of my Britax blindness (seeing as the MT is the cousing of the FN).
    What is the FN and MT?

    C~9/06 Boostered in FR85 Livia & Maui C~2/09 Boostered in GN Daisy & Julia
    Driving in 2005 Toyota Camry & 1994 Honda Accord

  8. #87
    CPS Technician crunchierthanthou's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by akearney3 View Post
    What is the FN and MT?
    Britax Frontier and Multi Tech (a foreign seat).

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  10. #88
    Senior Community Member jujumum's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by akearney3 View Post

    What is the FN and MT?
    Frontier (USA seat) & Multi-tech (European seat).

    This post is from a thread about MT and other European seat tests. On the link in this post, the first crash video shows the harness of an MT pulling through the back of the seat. Although the FN is not an MT, they are both made by Britax and extremely similar. Makes me sad about Britax.

    http://www.car-seat.org/showpost.php...4&postcount=12

    Lisa
    DD2 - 9 yrs,, TB lbb/Affix, DS2 - 7 yrs, Chicco Kitfit, TBSS Affix
    DD1 & DS1 safely using adult seat belts (18 yrs & 15 yrs)

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  12. #89
    CPS Technician cpsaddict's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    What I don't understand is, if all these seats got terrible numbers, then why are we not hearing of children being injured or killed in these seats? I am not super happy with the Britax numbers, but I am now far more confused than I ever was on what to get DD. I was and am considering a Signo for my car, but I am getting a MA for DH's truck because I need the rf tethering and more upright install. Also, DH has to take it in and out constantly to use the truck for students. Oh and I hate the Radian. I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I also hate the continous harness on the True Fit.

    This really bites. Honestly, it does.
    Jacky, CPST and mom to Kenzie(5) and Maverick(3) Riding in a Frontier, Marathon 70 and Radian, Safety 1st Store N Go and Evenflo Right Fit

  13. #90
    CPS Technician tl01's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Does anyone know if anyone has naked pics of the FN and MT?

    How similar are they? I've always thought they looked similar, but the results for the MT don't look reasonable. It is frustrating that the NHTSA didn't test the FN. DS is currently in a FN and I'm becoming increasingly uneasy about it. He's only 40 lbs now... but I bought this seat hoping it was our best choice for him.
    DS 7.5 years 71 lbs FFing in:
    a Frontier90, PWSGL 2013
    DS2 3.5 years 35 lbs FFing in:
    Foonf, Frontier 85, SureRide

  14. #91
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (by that, meaning of course that the seat installs well in a vehicle, and fits the child correctly) there is possibly some value in choosing a seat which tested better. That might not bethe purpose of the tests, but I think it is a potentially legitimate use of the data. I know that personally, when I look at something like the Truefit which has HICs almost exclusively in the 200s, versus another seat which maybe has HIC's entirely in the 600-800's, I'm going to pick the seat with an HIC that is significantly less by a factor of 3 or 4...why wouldn't I?
    Passing simply isn't good enough...many parents want to do what is BEST for their child. The guy who graduated last in his class in med school is still a doctor...but you know what? I'm probably going to try and use someone who did a little bit better, to be honest.
    There certainly are tons of variables, and no, I don't personally drive a bench sled, LOL. But when I see a seat consistently, on every test, perform really well, while another seat performs middling-to-poorly, I have to factor that into my decision making.
    This, exactly, word for word.

    If FMVSS213 testing were not important, I really doubt the time and money would be spent to do it. No, I don't drive a bench sled with lap belts, though While standardized testing has its limits, I think it's a good starting point, and I'd rather start with a seat that tests *well* and find one that fits my car and my child *well*, than start with one that has crappy numbers.

    And, for the Regent, if the bench was flawed the results aren't valid--they should have either been repeated or disqualified altogether.
    Me & DH FF'ing in seatbelts
    DS 6/04 in a PWSG HBB
    DS 09/10 ERF in RA50

  15. #92
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by christineka View Post
    I am concerned about the scenera. Not sure if I read it wrong or not, but it looked like it didn't do so well untethered. The scenera is a seat that lots of people own either due to finances, because safe kids gave it to them, because they are cheap, or because they don't care about car seats. I see sceneras in lots of vehicles around town. (And all of them ffing too.) Lots of these sceneras that are owned by people who have old vehicles or don't know much about car seats or don't care don't have them tethered.
    I agree with your concern.. but remember a lot of the time getting the kid in an untethered scenera is the best you're going to do. It's better than nothing.
    Me & DH FF'ing in seatbelts
    DS 6/04 in a PWSG HBB
    DS 09/10 ERF in RA50

  16. #93
    CPS Fanatic StillThankful's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by cpsaddict View Post
    What I don't understand is, if all these seats got terrible numbers, then why are we not hearing of children being injured or killed in these seats? I am not super happy with the Britax numbers, but I am now far more confused than I ever was on what to get DD. I was and am considering a Signo for my car, but I am getting a MA for DH's truck because I need the rf tethering and more upright install. Also, DH has to take it in and out constantly to use the truck for students. Oh and I hate the Radian. I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I also hate the continous harness on the True Fit.

    This really bites. Honestly, it does.
    I agree. I does bite. I kind of feel betrayed for some reason--a little helpless in a sense. Furthermore, I went from only wanting Britax car seats to now looking at anything but Britax. I am only using NCAP tested seats now--MR and Radians. I don't have these seats yet--they are in the mail, but I hope I like them. Why didn't you like the Radian?

    C~9/06 Boostered in FR85 Livia & Maui C~2/09 Boostered in GN Daisy & Julia
    Driving in 2005 Toyota Camry & 1994 Honda Accord

  17. #94
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I thought the MAs harness ripped through not the MT? Maybe I am thinking the MA just did really bad?

    (TC videos)

    Has Britax said anything about either yet?
    Diana, Mommy To:
    Kolin [5.5.04]-Ava [12.13.05]-Aden [2.18.09]

  18. #95
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Calideedle View Post
    I thought the MAs harness ripped through not the MT? Maybe I am thinking the MA just did really bad?

    (TC videos)
    On the MT testing done in finland? that is linked to in the above post referencing it, yes, i fact, the MT harness did rip through in FF testing. (click the linkj in the above post to see it yourself) Al;though...it looked to me like tyhe shell itself did not break so much as the harness simply pulled through..like it was maybe an issue with the adjuster giving out, and not the shell ripping through like with the Mas??

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

  19. #96
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    On the MT testing done in finland? that is linked to in the above post referencing it, yes, i fact, the MT harness did rip through in FF testing. (click the linkj in the above post to see it yourself) Al;though...it looked to me like tyhe shell itself did not break so much as the harness simply pulled through..like it was maybe an issue with the adjuster giving out, and not the shell ripping through like with the Mas??
    Okay I haven't seen that

    Kinda makes me want another Nauti over the Frontier I just bought.
    Diana, Mommy To:
    Kolin [5.5.04]-Ava [12.13.05]-Aden [2.18.09]

  20. #97
    Senior Community Member jujumum's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by tl01 View Post
    Does anyone know if anyone has naked pics of the FN and MT?

    How similar are they? I've always thought they looked similar, but the results for the MT don't look reasonable. It is frustrating that the NHTSA didn't test the FN. DS is currently in a FN and I'm becoming increasingly uneasy about it. He's only 40 lbs now... but I bought this seat hoping it was our best choice for him.
    Here they are naked:

    http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=64153&page=2

    I can't tell from the pics how similar they are. Perhaps they are completely and totally different and they only thing they have in common is that they are both made by britax.

    Lisa
    DD2 - 9 yrs,, TB lbb/Affix, DS2 - 7 yrs, Chicco Kitfit, TBSS Affix
    DD1 & DS1 safely using adult seat belts (18 yrs & 15 yrs)

  21. #98
    CPST/Firefighter Judi's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    You don't know what the interior is like either. There may be differences.

  22. #99
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Judi View Post
    You don't know what the interior is like either. There may be differences.
    yes. I mean, not that I have a lot of love for Britax, but the frontier is labeled for use up to 80 pounds. I have to believe that they did something to reinforce the seat in order to make that claim. Since dd will height out of her frontier by about 50 pounds, I have no qualms using it.

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

  23. #100
    CPS Technician tl01's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Judi View Post
    You don't know what the interior is like either. There may be differences.
    I'm hoping this is true. I wish I could feel them both to see if the MT also has the sort of blown plastic shell that the Frontier has.
    DS 7.5 years 71 lbs FFing in:
    a Frontier90, PWSGL 2013
    DS2 3.5 years 35 lbs FFing in:
    Foonf, Frontier 85, SureRide

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