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  1. #41
    CPS Technician crunchierthanthou's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    Thanks! I was so confused.
    Off to look at sheet 2 some more......


    Oh, hey, does someone who can access the details want to see if they state whether or not the eddie bauer 3-in 1 and alpha luxe echelons they used were the new 50-lb versions?
    It's model 22799; that's a 40 lb seat.

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhts...?type=3in1&i=2

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  3. #42
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
    I don't disagree, and I understand and acknowledge that there are other factors that go into seat choice. I'm writing more about the "Britax is the best company with the best seats" phenomenon. I just don't get how that persists.
    Everyone has seat preferences, of course. Some people prefer one brand to another for any type of product. I guess I haven't observered widespread allegiance as far as recommending one brand of carseats exclusive of anything else.

    Britax certainly does have an image of being a leader in safety and convenience features. Combined with having higher priced products, that combination will always attract a certain segment of customers. They've also been very proactive with the tech community via their intranet and the Safe Kids Buckle Up program. That certainly doesn't hurt from a PR standpoint, either.

  4. #43
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by crunchierthanthou View Post
    It's model 22799; that's a 40 lb seat.

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhts...?type=3in1&i=2
    duh, thanks, I realized the model numbers are rightthere in front!

    So..it looks like the echelons they tested are 40 lb seat (although they tested them with the 6 yo weighted dummy???) but the seats they call "Dorel alpha elite" , which I had at first assumed to be Apex 65's, since they call those "alpha elites" sometimes, are actually, according to the model numer, alpha OMEGA elites, or 3-in-1s, and that model number is a 40 lb seat.


    fixed it, I meant 40 lb, typo...
    Last edited by bobandjess99; 11-06-2009 at 02:32 PM.

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

  5. #44
    CPS Technician crunchierthanthou's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
    duh, thanks, I realized the model numbers are rightthere in front!

    So..it looks like the echelons they tested are 40 lb seat (although they tested them with the 6 yo weighted dummy???) but the seats they call "Dorel alpha elite" , which I had at first assumed to be Apex 65's, since they call those "alpha elites" sometimes, are actually, according to the model numer, alpha OMEGA elites, or 3-in-1s, and that model number is a 50 lb seat.
    yeah, alpha elites are Apex clones, but model number 22158 is an AOE (a 40 lb one). plus, it's in the convertible section and they tested it rf so I really doubt it's a combo. That's just further proof that Dorel has the dumbest naming conventions ever.

  6. #45
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Well...I am impressed with the evenflo convertibles..the titan elite gets great numbers, even untethered, as does the triumph advance and even their tribute. This makes me hapy knowing so many kds are riding in these seats, especially institutional titans. Really impressed.
    Also, the truefit appears to kick serious ... Excellent numbers. The lowest HIC's I've ever seen. Best all around numbers I think of any seat.
    SKR did well, not the absolute awesome best ever numbers Russ might lead us to believe, but they did good.
    And you can hate the AOE all you want, but with the 6yo WEIGHTED dummy, it passes the Tethered head excursion - UNTETHERED - by over 100 mm. Ya.
    And the nauti did REALLY well. Period.
    I'm VERY happy with the seats my kids are in right now, even if this is just one test.


    i'm not sure why they only tested some seats in one of its capabilites? Like, I see the apex tested un BPB, but not for ff harnessed? and the nauti as a Ff harnessed seat, but not as a BPB?
    Last edited by Jeanum; 11-06-2009 at 03:14 PM. Reason: language - this is a public area and we need to keep it clean and professional, as Darren alluded to earlier folks!

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

  7. #46
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I will say that my hatred for the AOE is based mostly on the "only seat you'll ever need" quap. It's a fine rear-facing seat for an older baby/toddler, but it won't fit a newborn. It's a fine forward-facing seat as far as it goes, but it won't get most kids to booster age.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

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  8. #47
    CPS Technician bobandjess99's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
    I will say that my hatred for the AOE is based mostly on the "only seat you'll ever need" quap. It's a fine rear-facing seat for an older baby/toddler, but it won't fit a newborn. It's a fine forward-facing seat as far as it goes, but it won't get most kids to booster age.
    Ya, i understand, it certainly can't be an infant seat, and the booster is crap, but it does have a really tall shell for ERFing, and I would qualify your statement that while the 40 lb ones won't get most kids to booster age, the 50 pound ones absolutely will. I don't recommend it a lot because of the quirks/not wanting people to use it as a booster, etc, but aside from dorels marketing being stupid, the seat itself has consistently performed well in testing.

    Alex, 8 Katie, 12 and Annabelle Jan 2017

  9. #48
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I agree -- I'll recommend the 50# AOEs with the caveat that it shouldn't be used as a booster. I'll tell people who already own the 40# AOEs that the seat is great to use to its limits, but to be aware of those limits FFing -- but I won't recommend the purchase because of those limits.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

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  10. #49
    Senior Community Member o_mom's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by LISmama810 View Post
    Was the Frontier tested? (With the Nautilus doing so well, I'm curious about a comparison of the two, since people always seem hung up on which of those two seats to get.) (And yes, I could look myself, but have to go take care of my other life now.)
    I didn't see it in this data, but it was tested and passed according to the monthly report from April 2009. No details for comparison, but it did pass. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/Cars/testin...apr2009rpt.pdf

  11. #50
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post

    One very nice thing about Britax is that they continue to make innovations. If this is a genuine opportunity for improvement, I'm sure it will be addressed.
    I can't say I agree with that.

  12. #51
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post
    Everyone has seat preferences, of course. Some people prefer one brand to another for any type of product. I guess I haven't observered widespread allegiance as far as recommending one brand of carseats exclusive of anything else.

    Britax certainly does have an image of being a leader in safety and convenience features. Combined with having higher priced products, that combination will always attract a certain segment of customers. They've also been very proactive with the tech community via their intranet and the Safe Kids Buckle Up program. That certainly doesn't hurt from a PR standpoint, either.
    No, of course not, educated technicians wouldn't think that. But there's still a wide spread 'parenting' belief that "Britax is best".

  13. #52
    Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus Jeanum's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Donning the mod hat here for a moment: Please remember forum guidelines pertaining to language and keep it clean and professional as this is a public thread, and it presents the public face of the forum to the online world so to speak. Thanks!
    Regards,
    Jean

    DD1 Age 16, 66" Driver's Ed
    DD2 Age 12, 64" 5 steps

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  14. #53
    Admin - CPST Instructor Kecia's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I would like to point out one very important piece of information that no one else has addressed as far as I can tell. While numbers are interesting and certainly worthy of discussion, it doesn't mean anything unless you happen to drive a test sled bench seat with lap-only seatbelts and your child is exactly the same size and weight of a Hybrid III test dummy.

    Those numbers do not and cannot predict how a particular CR will perform in a real crash involving a real child in a real vehicle.

    Personally, I'm much more intrigued by the TC videos or by any other NCAP testing data where they are really crashing actual vehicles. NHTSA 213 compliance test data is essentially worthless as far as I'm concerned. And I definitely wouldn't chose one seat over another based solely on those numbers.

    Pick the CR that fits your child and installs tightly in your vehicle. Whenever possible - pick a vehicle that has good crash worthiness and side curtain airbags. Those are the factors that will really determine how well protected a child will be in a crash.

    Just my


  15. #54
    Senior Community Member Evolily's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I think it's interesting in how some seats did poorer or better than expected. I've heard 5892384 million times around here about how the Radian is preferred for a FFing seat in a spot w/out a tether, yet the nautilus had better head excursion and HIC numbers than the radian.

    Seats are, presumably, designed specifically to pass on that bench with those dummies (otherwise the seat would never see the market). It's interesting how far under the "pass" bar different companies and seats are able to get.
    Formerly known as CelticLabyrinth
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  16. #55
    Senior Community Member BigDaddy's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Granted, I'm not as experienced as many of the members, but this thread confuses me.

    The overwhelming majority of replies in the forums state that the best seat is the one that provides the best fit for your child and vehicle. Yet, with these results coming out, everyone starts talking about how much better or worse certain seats are, without any apparent regard to how those seats fit the test rig and/or dummy, or how well the test simulates real world conditions.

    Can someone please tell me the difference... why would seats that performed better in this test be considered better, even if another seat provides a better fit? Or at which point should seats that performed well in these tests be considered, even if another seat provides a better installation in my vehicle?


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  18. #56
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    You are absolutely correct that proper fit is paramount, and our kids aren't shaped like test dummies and we don't drive around on test sleds.

    You should, without a doubt, use a seat that fits your child and your car. There are very few* situations where I would recommend replacing a seat that works well for you. I would use these results as a starting point when shopping: I'd look first at seats that tested well (and were within my budget). If they fit my child and my car, I'd stop there. If they didn't fit well, I'd work my way down the list and I wouldn't look back, because I know that a good fit is the most important thing.

    * And where I'd draw the line may be different from where another tech would. We all have biases, no matter how much we try not to.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

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  20. #57
    CPS Technician Pixels's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    The whole purpose of FMVSS testing is to determine which seats are "good enough" and which aren't. Granted, they aren't going to exactly duplicate a real-world crash unless you are driving a test sled with lap-only belt or LATCH and the crash pulse perfectly mimics the test pulse and your child is an H-III dummy. Since that is practically a non-existent scenario today, does that mean the testing is pointless? I think there is much to learn.

    Yes, it is important that a seat properly fits the child, fits the vehicle, and is used correctly every time. In many (most?) cases, there is more than one seat that fits those criteria. If you have a vehicle that does not or cannot have top tethers retrofitted, a seat that performs under the tethered standard is a better choice than one that performs poorly, if all the other factors are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticLabyrinth View Post
    I think it's interesting in how some seats did poorer or better than expected. I've heard 5892384 million times around here about how the Radian is preferred for a FFing seat in a spot w/out a tether, yet the nautilus had better head excursion and HIC numbers than the radian.
    Up until now, we had no reason to think that any seat other than the Radian passed the tethered test without a tether. Sunshine Kids advertises the fact that they do. Graco (Nautilus) does not give us information about their test results. Now that we have data telling us that there are other seats that also pass the test, I'm sure the responses in the forums will change to reflect what we now know.
    Melissa, CPST and Mom to three

  21. #58
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    This is FMVSS-Compliance. The whole point of the test is to find out if the seats work as the law requires them too. So yes, the testing results in this case are a very. big. deal.

  22. #59
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    Many of us were careful to explain that we recommended the Radian because we *knew* how it tested and were comfortable with those results.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

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  23. #60
    Senior Community Member BigDaddy's Avatar
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    Re: FMVSS 213 compliance testing

    I understand the tests are important, and that a seat must pass. My question was in regard to how the results are being interpreted here. It's widely accepted that in the real world, a seat that has the best fit is safer, but that fact seems to be ignored when judging the results of these tests. I didn't see why this would be any different when comparing them. It seems that everyone assumes that all the seats fit the test rig and dummy perfectly, and that the results are a true reflection of the best protection each seat can provide. If the fit is so important in real world results, why shouldn't it be considered when judging these results. Perhaps, if the dummy was a different shape (I.E. taller and thinner, or shorter and fatter) as all kids are, the results could have been completely different, and seats that came out on top could have performed far worse and vice versa. I thought the main point of the test was to make sure the seats pass, not to rate which ones are better than the others, because there are so many factors that can't be incorporated into the test.

    Considering that this thread is open for the public to see, I'd hate for someone to buy a seat based primarily on the numbers in this test, instead of how the seat fits. Especially, because the seats with better results may have performed differently with a child the size of their own.



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