Question toddler in an adult seatbelt- Who gets the ticket? Driver or Parent?

Ducky5306 · Nov 4, 2009

My step-dad is a driver for a limo company and yesterday he picked up a family with a 3 y/o without any carseat.. the mom said she has one where she is staying but didn't want to travel with one

so if they got pulled over who would get the ticket? the mom in the backseat with the child (the mom buckled her in) or the driver? (We are in FL, i don't even know the laws here but i'm guessing a 3 year old needs to be in something!)

Maedze · Nov 4, 2009

For a limo? No one. Livery vehicles are generally exempt from child restraint laws. It's still not a smart thing to do, but not illegal.

In a private vehicle, generally the driver of the vehicle, but some states make allowances protecting the driver and prosecuting the legal guardian.

Ducky5306 · Nov 4, 2009

Maedze said:
For a limo? No one. Livery vehicles are generally exempt from child restraint laws. It's still not a smart thing to do, but not illegal.

In a private vehicle, generally the driver of the vehicle, but some states make allowances protecting the driver and prosecuting the legal guardian.

Sorry forgot to say it was actually an "Escalade" (a non-limo one) mostly he drives that or a town-car they only have one actual "limo"

Maedze · Nov 4, 2009

Ducky5306 said:
Sorry forgot to say it was actually an "Escalade" (a non-limo one) mostly he drives that or a town-car they only have one actual "limo"

If it's licensed as a livery vehicle, it doesn't matter what kind of vehicle it is.

Ducky5306 · Nov 4, 2009

Good to know.. he was worried about being ticketed..

Maedze · Nov 4, 2009

Ducky5306 said:
Good to know.. he was worried about being ticketed..

If I were your dad, I would make it a company policy that all children ride appropriately restrained. I would even have a few child restraints in my vehicle for cases where they weren't provided.

He may not be legally required, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be privately sued if something went horribly wrong.

LISmama810 · Nov 4, 2009

i would check state laws, because livery vehicles are not always exempt, though people often assume they are.

In California, they are not exempt. I believe (haven't read the law in a while, so don't remember for sure) that the parent would get the ticket.

Lea_Ontario · Nov 4, 2009

Maedze said:
He may not be legally required, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be privately sued if something went horribly wrong.

Exactly - legal doesn't mean smart or safe.

menfusse · Nov 4, 2009

Maedze said:
If I were your dad, I would make it a company policy that all children ride appropriate restrained. I would even have a few child restraints in my vehicle for cases where they weren't provided.

He may not be legally required, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be privately sued if something went horribly wrong.

Yea, check the laws regarding the exemption, but also he needs to check with insurance laws regarding limo/livery services. Some state regulations allow insurance companies to deny coverage for limo services if they provide child restraints. Basically, they just aren't allowed to legally. My state is one of those. When my dd was chosen as a Gap finalist last year, I was initially told they (the limo service picking us up to and from the airport to home) could provide a restraint (though I had declined because I wanted her in a seat on the plane). They later called back to let me know that my state doesn't allow limo services to provide restraints-something to do with insurance and such. They'd forgotten I had already told them I'd be bringing my own. Anyway, I think it has to do with they don't want the responsibility of proper installation and maintenance. It sort of makes sense.

Lea_Ontario · Nov 4, 2009

menfusse said:
Yea, check the laws regarding the exemption, but also he needs to check with insurance laws regarding limo/livery services. Some state regulations allow insurance companies to deny coverage for limo services if they provide child restraints. Basically, they just aren't allowed to legally. My state is one of those. When my dd was chosen as a Gap finalist last year, I was initially told they (the limo service picking us up to and from the airport to home) could provide a restraint (though I had declined because I wanted her in a seat on the plane). They later called back to let me know that my state doesn't allow limo services to provide restraints-something to do with insurance and such. They'd forgotten I had already told them I'd be bringing my own. Anyway, I think it has to do with they don't want the responsibility of proper installation and maintenance. It sort of makes sense.

But they would still be allowed to deny transportation to a child who was not in a child restraint, would they not ?

menfusse · Nov 4, 2009

Kashi said:
But they would still be allowed to deny transportation to a child who was not in a child restraint, would they not ?

I would think so, I didn't really have a long discussion about it with them, because at the time it didn't make a difference to me. I however, regardless of laws or whatever loophole that says I wouldn't be legally responsible, would deny if I were the driver. Somehow, I highly doubt that happens very often in the real world though

. Chances are, it's not a private driver and he risks his job by denying to drive an unrestrained child, unless it's a company policy.

thepeach80 · Nov 4, 2009

In FL I'm almost positive taxis and such still have to follow carseat rules. At 3, a child would have to be in a booster or carseat. At 4 they are allowed to use the adult belt. Great laws huh?! I would give the driver the ticket and charge the parents.

vonfirmath · Nov 4, 2009

If the livery vehicle provided the restraint and the child was injured in an accident, couldn't the livery still be sued? And if they refused to transport a child, they could either be sued for "throwing a child off the car" or get lots and lots of bad press on the mommy boards.

ketchupqueen · Nov 4, 2009

In CA many shuttle and limo and taxi services state on their websites that children will not be transported without appropriate restraints as per state law, and that parents are responsible to provide them.

menfusse · Nov 4, 2009

ketchupqueen said:
In CA many shuttle and limo and taxi services state on their websites that children will not be transported without appropriate restraints as per state law, and that parents are responsible to provide them.

I would imagine that most places have that policy in place, but I wonder how educated their drivers are once on the road and faced with the situation? I'm in KY and it's my state that said they can't legally provide restraints because of insurance, however once we got to CA for the Gap stuff, the limo's there did eventually provide seats, but they were unprepared to say the least. The first day there was nothing and I just told them we had a seat and I'd go up and get it, so I did. The other child and family that went with us rode in a seat belt. She was 3. Nobody said a word. When they picked us up that afternoon, it was the same deal, only this time the family allowed the child to ride in their lap with no belt. I spoke up and said do you need to buckle her (I figured even with not seat, buckled was better than the lap) and the mom refused and the limo driver said nothing. I would imagine that means she probably rode from the airport to the hotel, and from home to hotel with not seat as well. However the next day, they had brand new Summits in all the cars (most were escalades) and a couple of snugrides for the little ones. They also had a couple of turbo's for the bigger ones. I was actually pretty disappointed because Gap's been doing this for I don't know how many years and should've had it straightened out.

ketchupqueen · Nov 4, 2009

I know that cabs from many companies in CA won't take child passengers that don't at least look 6 or 60 without a seat-- at least that I've heard. (My mom once had a patient whose parents were able to bribe a cabbie to take them without a seat on the way to the airport to come down here, but couldn't find a company that would on the way back, had to scramble to find a seat for the kid.

) Limos tend to be a bit more lax, but they are not exempt and some of them will refuse.

When we called SuperShuttle to make reservations they asked the ages of our children and informed us that if we didn't have appropriate seats for each of them to install for our rides, they would refuse us service. :thumbsup: (They also told us we were responsible for installation and proper use, that their drivers are not allowed to touch the seats.)

Ducky5306 · Nov 5, 2009

My step-dad just works for the company (and this is only his second week) He didn't even know there was going to be a child at the pickup until he got there.. I'm sure he would have lost his job if he had refused to drive them without a carseat.. He doesn't own the company or the cars. He is just a part-time driver.

He knows how I am about car seats and knows how important they are but there was really nothing he could do at that point.

I don't think the company he works for provides any type of child safety seats, Its a small company ran from someone's house and they only have 3 vehicles.

Jennifer mom to my 7 · Nov 5, 2009

Per NY state law, livery vehicles are excempt from child restraint laws. But they should be willing to let you put your own seats in. And I heard rumors that they may want them to keep seats in the trunk, etc., for children. THey are upping their child restraint law to any child under 8, and any child under 4 years or 40 pounds needs to be harnessed.

Maedze · Nov 5, 2009

vonfirmath said:
If the livery vehicle provided the restraint and the child was injured in an accident, couldn't the livery still be sued? And if they refused to transport a child, they could either be sued for "throwing a child off the car" or get lots and lots of bad press on the mommy boards.

Well, you can be sued for anything. The question that will come up is whether or not you were acting in good faith. If you provide an appropriate sized restraint, bought from a legitmate retailer, not recalled, crashed or expired, you're acting in good faith.

A suit for refusing to transport an improperly restrained passenger would go nowhere fast as would complaining on 'mommy boards'.

Question toddler in an adult seatbelt- Who gets the ticket? Driver or Parent?

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