Will you be changing your seat usage in response to TC's videos?

seamonkeys · Oct 11, 2009

Ok, so what's bothering me is like others have said, the seats perform differently depending on the vehicle. Well, I'm guessing there's no way for them to test the seats in every vehicle out there, so that leaves parents guessing whether the seats they have are ok in their car if there weren't tests done on them. I am one of those. And the fact that they didn't even test the Frontier doesn't help me.

I just don't know what to think or do.

Minnesota · Oct 11, 2009

I have a Radian80 sitting unused right now in favor of my MA's, one of which is being using FF. I think today I am going to be switching to the Radian, and leaving that MA to be the one left sitting out.

Also, as DS1 is approaching 40 lbs, I have been planning to switch to a seatbelt install. No more. Even if I have to disregard some stated limits, we are sticking with LATCH.

I have always instinctively preferred RF seats that could be tethered, but now I will refuse to use them if they don't have some sort of ARB system. The rebound on some of those RF seats was brutal.

Was anyone else shocked that some of the tests they did with LATCH and seatbelt together actually fared BETTER? For all of the parental "misconceptions and misuses" I have corrected on that very topic, I feel a little red in the face.

tiggercat · Oct 11, 2009

chimpmandee said:
Was anyone else shocked that some of the tests they did with LATCH and seatbelt together actually fared BETTER? For all of the parental "misconceptions and misuses" I have corrected on that very topic, I feel a little red in the face.

Yes, same here. And darn it, this proves my husband right (he's an engineer and was trying to convince me that it couldn't decrease protection and I kept tell him it was a no-no).

Shanora · Oct 11, 2009

lynsgirl said:
As a rule, we don't have close-up video of actual IRL crashes while they happening. In the vehicle. I think we need to remember that crashes are going to look bad. You aren't going to see what your carseat is doing in a crash in the same way that you can in these videos. These seats are doing their jobs. What you're seeing is the reasoning behind why we *replace* seats after crashes - because they just did their job of protecting your child from serious injury and/or death. While not dismissing the seat failures that happened in the videos, I *am* reiterating that despite that, the injury levels were *still* in acceptable levels and the dummies were not ejected from the seats. We see improperly installed seats and improperly used seats every single day as techs/advocates. And most of the kids still survive. I'm not saying we can't improve, just saying that these seats were crashed under ideal settings - properly installed, correctly used, etc (most of them. I know they purposely did some misuse testing).

I agree with this.

snowbird25ca said:
Not exactly a dead stop - and herein lies one of the unknowns in regards to the tests... the front crumple zone of the vehicle absorbs a great deal of energy in a collision, and increase "ride down" time - ie, the vehicle stops moving a little slower giving the occupants a chance to slow slightly before a complete stop. Additionally, some of the tests performed were performed at speeds well below what the standards require - they exceeded minimum testing levels for other reasons - lap/shoulder belt for one, or just the fact that they were installed in a vehicle. Just a reminder to all the US folks reading this thread, that you're seeing km/hr numbers and not mph. 48km/hr is what the normal standards test is - which is the same as your 30mph. :thumbsup:

Many of the Britax seats were obtained directly from Britax. My understanding based on a conversation with Britax (as a parent,) back in 2004, was that there was no structural difference in the CDN and US Marathons - just different weight limits, but same shell. Further conversation with TC has said that there are subtle differences between the US and CDN seats - but it's more in the area of the density of energy absorbing foam and/or the comfort foam. (I'm not sure which, and I'm guessing that the person I was talking to couldn't disclose specifics.)

When calculated out, the amount of force of newtons the 51lb dummy placed on the MA harness at the higher speed collision was less than that a 65lb dummy would place on the harness at the standard test bench speed. We didn't see failures in every vehicle - best speculation right now is that different vehicles have a significant difference in the way that the front crumple zone influences the amount of energy transferred to the passengers.

Nicole and I don't differ on a lot of things, but I personally don't feel that a 50km/hr collision is anywhere in the realm of unsurvivable. 50mph? Yeah, maybe.. but 55km/hr, should be survivable. We test vehicles to speeds of 35mph, yet only expect our child restraints to pass at 30mph. To me, that is an issue. However, it is an issue that needs to be balanced with the fact that modern day seat ARE doing a good job of protecting children and are NOT failing on a routine basis. Additionally, the need for affordable and readily accessible seats needs to be taken in to account.

So for the time being, I don't think a lot of assumptions can be made... if I was using a ff'ing MA, I admit that I would likely quit using it. And if I was using a 3in1 as a booster, I'd quit using it. But I continue to have no qualms about a rf'ing seat without a tether...

For those of you who want the quick and dirty version of the testing, follow the link I posted, and then click on each section - rf'ing, ff'ing, and booster. You'll find the summaries there and some commentary that is very very good and useful information and may help put things in perspective for you a little bit.

And like Nicole said - despite the disturbing images on the videos, for the most part injuries were within acceptable parameters. What that means in terms of a real world injuries, I can't speculate... but I can speculate it means that the behavior the seats exhibited in most cases wasn't enough to make the difference between life and death when comparing a 48km/hr collision with a 51km/hr collision. (As for the harnesses that some have wondered if they were loose, harnesses stretch in a collision - and the higher the forces of the collision, the more stretch there is going to be... that's just par for the course though.)

Trudy, we so need to meet IRL...you are a wealth of info!

So, I went back last night and read everything. I'm not nearly as freaked out as I was before. I feel confident in using my MA in my Van. There is MORE than enough HE room between my DS#2's head and the back of DD's seat.

I do agree that I think its all based in how much of a crumple zone each vehicle had, and how much it slowed down the external forces caused from the collision. I think that if you took the older vehicles that didn't have ANY crumple zones, and installed the same seat in there, you'd probably see alot more seat with harnesses pulled from the shell. The forces have to go somewhere.....

The thought that a 50km/h collision is unsurvivable.....well that bothers me, as I don't drive 50km/h anywhere in this city (except for on the base), and coming to a dead stop (or a slow controlled stop

) at 60-70-80km/h means certain death than. I like to think that we'd have more of a chance to survive a 50km/h collision. Its gonna hurt and suck, but I'd like to think that I'd survive it!

I really like this quote...it explains why the harnesses are meant to stretch, and I think some seat require MORE stretch than others...

To help bring the child to a controlled stop and minimize injury, the harnesses must stretch. This will allow the child to move forward, so it is important that there be enough space between the child and the seat in front of him or her to ensure a safe stop.

I also really think that once I re-read everything, I didn't have AS many questions as before.....I may not push that parents use seats to the 1" rule anymore, but I don't think that if they do use it to that limit its going to cause any unnecessary harm that using it to the height limit would cause.

Maedze · Oct 11, 2009

I put forth this query on carseatblog and I'll put it here, too, for public discussion.

What opinion do we have on the fact that the Cosco AIOs and the Compass booster both got good marks for lap belt fit before and during impact, and no increased abdominal load was noted during impact, despite the fact that we've long noted those two seats for having terrrible lap belt fit?

rodentranger · Oct 11, 2009

Further pondering has left me wondering if instead of anchoring my Frontier to the back oft he seat it is on in my Pilot, should I anchor it to the corresponding third row anchor instead.
I'm seeing in the videos that the vehicle seats in SUVs and vans (with non-fixed seat backs) are moving forward with the child restraint. To me, this seems to kind of defeat the purpose of tethering if the tether in anchored to the seatback.

I'm also contemplating selling my TF for a Nauti.
If I had watched these a year ago, I probably would have made the parental decision to put my newborn in a MA instead of an infant seat. He officially fit the MA at 3 months.

syd'smom · Oct 11, 2009

Unregistered said:
I am not sure yet..

I have a some questions though..

If the Britax Marathan's harness ripped for a child well under the 65lb weight limit, are our seats passing lower safety standards over here?

I've been researching European seats like crazy these past two days, as were going on holiday to the UK for three months and my parents want to get one installed in their car (to make sure we get a good fit).. instead of bringing out seat over (which may not fit)..

IN Europe, we have rearward facing seats up to 55lbs!!! but these VERY same seats can only be used forward facing up to 40lbs!!! (YIKES) this is the opposite to seats over here (lower rearward facing limit/higher forward facing limit)... I don't get it

Can someone please tell me why the Regent did better than the MA? was it just the harness straps? (which we now have higher weight limits, and the dummies exceeded the limits of the seats) or am I missing something?

My dd is only 33lbs (but 5 yrs old) she has just been turned forward facing (as I have been following her weight like a hawk) she is in a Boulevard wish the boulevard was tested.. but is the boulevard and Marathan the same shell? and wouldn't the harness perform the same way? not sure as it has the special height adjuster..

and what about the rearward facing MA? why was this so bad (i've read and watched) but feel so dim.

Also, the seats were not teethered rearward facing on the MA right? wouldn't this make a difference also?

Basically, I would like to know.. what I need to be doing to make our Boulavard as safe as possible in our car..

European seats aparently do really well in after tests, and they win awards etc.. how is this different to US and CA testing? of course, EU seats cost twice as much.. but then so does everything else too (strollers etc)

I wanted to buy a Radian for our dd to stay rf for longer.. what is the safest way to install a radian rearward facing? does it need more or less space between the front passenger's seat? or because it's not tethered, am I better off with her forward facing now that she is 33 lbs but 5 years old (she is 3' 5.5"

TIA.

I have a radian premiere and an xt - they are both able to be tethered rearfacing if you choose.

As for me, I'm confused. Still thinking about our seating options.

hipmaman · Oct 11, 2009

tiggercat said:
Yes, same here. And darn it, this proves my husband right (he's an engineer and was trying to convince me that it couldn't decrease protection and I kept tell him it was a no-no).

He is right that using both UAS and seatbelt would not decrease protection. But he would also know that unless design and (compliant) testing allow for both system to be used, to err on the safe side due to unknowns, we cannot for sure say, kwim?

Therefore, I would still say not to use both system, unless the carseat manufacturer says it's ok with its seats. Using both at this point is still against manufacturers' instructions for all seats, right? But if a preference has to be picked, TC results here show the slight better with UAS.

shauburg · Oct 11, 2009

For my own seat usage, I will focus more than I would have before on a few things:

- Considering head excursion space for our FF DS when looking for a new vehicle

- Ensuring good UAS (aka LATCH) seating position availability for both DCs when looking for a new vehicle - seat belt installs will now be 2nd choice

- Keeping the handle up (position A) in the vehicle when we start to use the SR32 for our new DC.

- Turning DS back RF again when the RadianXT arrives in Canada. These videos just reminded me again of what a dramatic difference there is between RF & FF - I do not want DS's head & neck to ever whip forward like that unless I have no choice! (have not weighed him in a while, but guess that he may be >40lb now)

As a tech, I will now recommend:

- Moving out of infant seats sooner rather than later, especially if <2" of space left above head (will use the "you're going to have to buy a convertible one day anyway, so it might as well be now" angle)

InternationalMama · Oct 11, 2009

There are some things related to seat usage that I might change. But for me the biggest thing I've been thinking about changing is vehicle usage. The tests really drive home the message that what vehicle you drive is a huge part of the safety equation for your kids and your family on the road. I don't know much about choosing and maintaining a safe car, but I intend to find out more about it before I own one again.

bubbaray · Oct 11, 2009

chimpmandee said:
I have a Radian80 sitting unused right now in favor of my MA's, one of which is being using FF. I think today I am going to be switching to the Radian, and leaving that MA to be the one left sitting out.

BUT, (seeing as how I'm not getting an answer to this question in this or the other thread), would you use a RN in a Toyota Tacoma (not an extended cab as in the TC video, but a crew cab)?

I really feel like I am in a no win situation. I suppose I could get DD#1 a new Monterey for DH's truck and give DD#2 DD#1's Nautilus from the truck. DD#1 has a Monterey in my van....

I dunno. REALLY torn.

carseatcoach · Oct 11, 2009

Considering the Radian's head excursion numbers, I would use a tightly top-tethered Radian in a truck before I'd use a Nauti or a Monterey.

bubbaray · Oct 11, 2009

InternationalMama said:
There are some things related to seat usage that I might change. But for me the biggest thing I've been thinking about changing is vehicle usage. The tests really drive home the message that what vehicle you drive is a huge part of the safety equation for your kids and your family on the road. I don't know much about choosing and maintaining a safe car, but I intend to find out more about it before I own one again.

But the Honda Civic is a IIHS top safety pick: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

As is the Toyota Tacoma: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

The MA failed catastrophically in the Civic and the Radian had HUGE HE in the Tacoma.

I'm actually taking the opposite from these test results -- you can drive a very safe vehicle and have catastrophic crash results.

JMHO.

bubbaray · Oct 11, 2009

chickabiddy said:
Considering the Radian's head excursion numbers, I would use a tightly top-tethered Radian in a truck before I'd use a Nauti or a Monterey.

Why not the Nauti?

Monterey wouldn't be for the 2.5yo -- would be for the 5.5 yo (who is already riding in my Ody in a Monterey).

I'm in Canada -- all our FFg seats are TTd here.

carseatcoach · Oct 11, 2009

bubbaray said:
Why not the Nauti?

Monterey wouldn't be for the 2.5yo -- would be for the 5.5 yo (who is already riding in my Ody in a Monterey).

I'm not anti-Monterey -- my daughter rides in one.

But if I was very worried about head excursion, I'd pick a seat that I knew had very good head excursion numbers. The Nauti may do better, it may do worse, but we don't know. I'm satisfied with the Radian's numbers.

safeinthecar · Oct 11, 2009

Maedze said:
I put forth this query on carseatblog and I'll put it here, too, for public discussion.

What opinion do we have on the fact that the Cosco AIOs and the Compass booster both got good marks for lap belt fit before and during impact, and no increased abdominal load was noted during impact, despite the fact that we've long noted those two seats for having terrrible lap belt fit?

It stands to reason that manufacturers use the ATDs as a guide when developing their seat and the seat belt fit would be good on the ATDs for this reason. I have seen lots of children fit very well in the Compass (including my own) and a few that do fit the AIOs correctly, they are just not as reliable as other boosters in the fit department.

bubbaray · Oct 11, 2009

chickabiddy said:
I'm not anti-Monterey -- my daughter rides in one.

But if I was very worried about head excursion, I'd pick a seat that I knew had very good head excursion numbers. The Nauti may do better, it may do worse, but we don't know. I'm satisfied with the Radian's numbers.

Thanks -- didn't mean to sound snippy in my quote, BTW. Had a seriously cr@ppy week (was rear-ended on Monday -- ICBC is jerking me around on seat replacement and I'm injured, DD#1 was diagnosed with pink eye on Friday and I had to stay home with her, She's been up all night the past two nights, as have I, with her severe asthma and just an hour ago was diagnosed with either strep throat or tonsillitis).

So, to say that I just don't have the mental energy to figure this out for myself would be a huge understatement.

I just don't like RN's for younger kiddos much. Even when DD#1 sleeps in one, her head falls forward. It was way worse when she was younger. So, I cringe to put DD#2 into RNs for long term. Right now, our RNs are our spare seats and they are fine for that.

carseatcoach · Oct 11, 2009

Well, I do think that fit trumps everything else. My answer had everything else being equal as a given. I don't think that a Nauti would be BAD at all -- just that we know the Radian has good head excursion numbers.

lynsgirl · Oct 11, 2009

bubbaray said:
But the Honda Civic is a IIHS top safety pick: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

As is the Toyota Tacoma: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

The MA failed catastrophically in the Civic and the Radian had HUGE HE in the Tacoma.

I'm actually taking the opposite from these test results -- you can drive a very safe vehicle and have catastrophic crash results.

JMHO.

Considering that the Tacoma in the test was an extended cab, *not* a crew cab, I'd feel fine w/a Radian in your truck. I think any convertible in an extended cab truck, especially a smaller truck like the Tacoma, is going to be a problem. An extended cab in a full-size truck might not be as much of a concern, but still obviously has less room. I don't think we saw any other tests in the Tacoma, did we? (haven't combed through for that one, but I could later). I'd much rather see a correctly used Radian in your crew cab than a larger seat or booster. Just my :twocents:, for whatever they're worth

.

InternationalMama · Oct 11, 2009

bubbaray said:
But the Honda Civic is a IIHS top safety pick: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

As is the Toyota Tacoma: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

The MA failed catastrophically in the Civic and the Radian had HUGE HE in the Tacoma.

I wasn't thinking of the specific vehicles (don't know enough about those). I was thinking for example: Let's take the Toyota Tacoma. It seems to me that everyone is agreed the problem isn't so much with this truck in particular (apparently great safety ratings!) but with the back seats of trucks in general. They simply don't have enough room for passengers to ride back there. So knowing that I think I won't be buying a truck unless I can be sure I won't need to put my kids in the back of it. (Of course, I know a lot of people don't have the luxury of choice, but since I don't own a car now I can afford to think about these things.)

Or as another example, it seems everybody is in agreement that you want to leave as much room as you can between an FF carseat and the front seats. I was walking around the streets (in Europe) today and looking at all the cars with almost no back seat room and thinking that when we do buy a car I'd like one that allows as much distance as possible, for its size, between the car seat and the front seat. I know this varies between vehicles even of the same type (compact, full-sized etc.).

It is my understanding that back seats aren't tested at all when compiling safety ratings. The safety of back seat passengers isn't considered so how high the safety rating is for a certain car doesn't address these concerns. But now we have some data that might help us as consumers to address some of them in choosing a car.

Of course you're right that the tests remind us we can make what we think is the best choice and still have a bad outcome in a crash, but I think that to give up on trying to choose the best vehicle for our family because of the footage we've seen here would be like giving up on trying to choose the best car seat for our chld, which I don't think any of us would recommend doing.

I haven't completely thought all of these issues through, but that's the direction my thinking has been going.

I'm actually taking the opposite from these test results -- you can drive a very safe vehicle and have catastrophic crash results.

I thought that these test results weren't catastrophic? I thought even those seats that showed major failures still did a pretty good job of protecting the dummies? Or did I misunderstand that?

Will you be changing your seat usage in response to TC's videos?

Are you changing your seat usage in response to TC's crash videos?

Yes

No

Not sure/maybe?

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