xursusmaritimusx
New member
now im completely paranoid after watching those videos
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Will you be changing your seat usage in response to TC's videos?
- Thread starter bubbaray
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TheNimpsGirl
New member
I only own one seat, the SS1 and I already used it with the handle up but the videos might influence how soon I move him and what into. He has a few inches above his head (I need to actually measure though, but for sure is under the 1" mark) and is under the weight and height limits but I'm thinking I may get him his convertible seat before it starts snowing now and the roads get bad, verus waiting till after the new year for tax returns.
His new seat will definitly at this point be a TFP or a RNXTSL. I'm just trying to figure out what one... I can't get my hands on a TFP to try it out in my car or with DS and I'm afraid that the XTSL will be too close to the seats in my impala... ugh...
His new seat will definitly at this point be a TFP or a RNXTSL. I'm just trying to figure out what one... I can't get my hands on a TFP to try it out in my car or with DS and I'm afraid that the XTSL will be too close to the seats in my impala... ugh...
Mommy090804
New member
Hmmm, I haven't voted yet, but yes, I do have great concerns. (Of course, the FFing MA in the Civic was the first one I watched even before I read this thread
)
DD is FFing in a MA in a 2007 Civic behind the driver's seat. Thank goodness I am quite short and the driver's seat is moved forward quite a bit. There are a couple of things I will take into consideration:
1. I am supposed to switch to seatbelt installation at 40lbs due to Honda's unwritten (not in the manual) rule about 40lb UAS limit. That is not happening. I definitely will not install a FFing MA with seatbelt in this car. I will use a different seat.
2. Not that I was planning to, but I will never ever use a seat even one day past expiry. Nor will I use a seat over a weight limit.
3. I will continue to install seats as tight as possible with UAS and tether, and I will tighten those harness straps as tight as we are able to with them still being comfortable.
4. I will not put a larger child in a RFing seat that is not tethered.
I think I might be moving DS's Radian into the Civic for DD this weekend.
Am I correct that there is no data on RFing convertible seats?
)DD is FFing in a MA in a 2007 Civic behind the driver's seat. Thank goodness I am quite short and the driver's seat is moved forward quite a bit. There are a couple of things I will take into consideration:
1. I am supposed to switch to seatbelt installation at 40lbs due to Honda's unwritten (not in the manual) rule about 40lb UAS limit. That is not happening. I definitely will not install a FFing MA with seatbelt in this car. I will use a different seat.
2. Not that I was planning to, but I will never ever use a seat even one day past expiry. Nor will I use a seat over a weight limit.
3. I will continue to install seats as tight as possible with UAS and tether, and I will tighten those harness straps as tight as we are able to with them still being comfortable.
4. I will not put a larger child in a RFing seat that is not tethered.
I think I might be moving DS's Radian into the Civic for DD this weekend.
Am I correct that there is no data on RFing convertible seats?
TheNimpsGirl
New member
Actually it shows the MA, TF and the Intera 4 in 1 RFing.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-programs-testing-index-925.htm
Evolily
New member
Actually, I'm a LOT more comfortable with the nautilus in highback booster mode now, provided the belt has an acceptable fit- in my non-expert opinion the crash test videos looked very good, especially compared to the other boosters I watched. I haven't been comfortable with infant seats for a while- when I have children they will not be going into infant seats for anything but travel reasons, and then I will be installing without the base. I also think it reinforced to me that it's a crap shoot- expensive seats can have frightening results while cheaper seats can have surprisingly good results.
I'm sure it's hard to tell, but I really think some of the harnesses look loose prior to the crash. I mean, on some of the radian FF tests, I can actually look through the space in between the harness and the "child". That would make a huge difference in the way the crash looks on these tests. And on those videos, I do think the head excursion looks greater due to the (possibly) loose harnesses. Anyone else see that on the radian vids?
The way I tighten my kids harnesses, you would NEVER be able to see between them and their harness. There is no space there.
But other than those few videos with the harness issues, I like the way the radian seat looks in a crash. It doesn't move very much in relation to the seat of the car, and some other seats really fly around a lot in relation to the seat of the car. Plus add to that it's low profile overall, and you've got several more inches b/w kiddos head and seat in front.
The way I tighten my kids harnesses, you would NEVER be able to see between them and their harness. There is no space there.
But other than those few videos with the harness issues, I like the way the radian seat looks in a crash. It doesn't move very much in relation to the seat of the car, and some other seats really fly around a lot in relation to the seat of the car. Plus add to that it's low profile overall, and you've got several more inches b/w kiddos head and seat in front.
Evolily
New member
Do you mean on the abdomen?
My thought is that a human child has more "squish" than a crash dummy. And even on the one I'm looking at where I can see space between the harness and the abdomen the harness looks tightened properly.
Yeah, on the abdomen.
You could be right about the squishiness, IDK. If the harnesses are tight, then it just seems like there is a lot of stretch to the harness in some of the videos. I mean, in some, there isn't much harness behind the kid when they fly forward, and in others there is a ton. Would there be different harness stretch just due to the car it is installed in?
and BTW, those marathon failures are really scary. I mean, they didn't just fail a little, the one in the caravan it looked like it really shattered. And it was more than one car tested, it was 3!!!
I admit I didn't watch all the vids, so were there other seats that failed the way the marathon did? Man, hard to believe that happened, but it is really scary.
Glad I didn't buy that marathon last night, I'll have to keep thinking about it. Even on sale, it's a hard sell for me right now...
U
Unregistered
Guest
I am not sure yet..
I have a some questions though..
If the Britax Marathan's harness ripped for a child well under the 65lb weight limit, are our seats passing lower safety standards over here?
I've been researching European seats like crazy these past two days, as were going on holiday to the UK for three months and my parents want to get one installed in their car (to make sure we get a good fit).. instead of bringing out seat over (which may not fit)..
IN Europe, we have rearward facing seats up to 55lbs!!! but these VERY same seats can only be used forward facing up to 40lbs!!! (YIKES) this is the opposite to seats over here (lower rearward facing limit/higher forward facing limit)... I don't get it
Can someone please tell me why the Regent did better than the MA? was it just the harness straps? (which we now have higher weight limits, and the dummies exceeded the limits of the seats) or am I missing something?
My dd is only 33lbs (but 5 yrs old) she has just been turned forward facing (as I have been following her weight like a hawk) she is in a Boulevard wish the boulevard was tested.. but is the boulevard and Marathan the same shell? and wouldn't the harness perform the same way? not sure as it has the special height adjuster..
and what about the rearward facing MA? why was this so bad (i've read and watched) but feel so dim.
Also, the seats were not teethered rearward facing on the MA right? wouldn't this make a difference also?
Basically, I would like to know.. what I need to be doing to make our Boulavard as safe as possible in our car..
European seats aparently do really well in after tests, and they win awards etc.. how is this different to US and CA testing? of course, EU seats cost twice as much.. but then so does everything else too (strollers etc)
I wanted to buy a Radian for our dd to stay rf for longer.. what is the safest way to install a radian rearward facing? does it need more or less space between the front passenger's seat? or because it's not tethered, am I better off with her forward facing now that she is 33 lbs but 5 years old (she is 3' 5.5"
TIA.
I have a some questions though..
If the Britax Marathan's harness ripped for a child well under the 65lb weight limit, are our seats passing lower safety standards over here?
I've been researching European seats like crazy these past two days, as were going on holiday to the UK for three months and my parents want to get one installed in their car (to make sure we get a good fit).. instead of bringing out seat over (which may not fit)..
IN Europe, we have rearward facing seats up to 55lbs!!! but these VERY same seats can only be used forward facing up to 40lbs!!! (YIKES) this is the opposite to seats over here (lower rearward facing limit/higher forward facing limit)... I don't get it
Can someone please tell me why the Regent did better than the MA? was it just the harness straps? (which we now have higher weight limits, and the dummies exceeded the limits of the seats) or am I missing something?
My dd is only 33lbs (but 5 yrs old) she has just been turned forward facing (as I have been following her weight like a hawk) she is in a Boulevard wish the boulevard was tested.. but is the boulevard and Marathan the same shell? and wouldn't the harness perform the same way? not sure as it has the special height adjuster..
and what about the rearward facing MA? why was this so bad (i've read and watched) but feel so dim.
Also, the seats were not teethered rearward facing on the MA right? wouldn't this make a difference also?
Basically, I would like to know.. what I need to be doing to make our Boulavard as safe as possible in our car..
European seats aparently do really well in after tests, and they win awards etc.. how is this different to US and CA testing? of course, EU seats cost twice as much.. but then so does everything else too (strollers etc)
I wanted to buy a Radian for our dd to stay rf for longer.. what is the safest way to install a radian rearward facing? does it need more or less space between the front passenger's seat? or because it's not tethered, am I better off with her forward facing now that she is 33 lbs but 5 years old (she is 3' 5.5"
TIA.
emandbri
Well-known member
I'm not sure. Like others I would have liked to see more rear-facing convertibles and rear-facing convertibles that were tethered.
The regent in the caravan next to the turbo booster is pretty interesting. It has been said that after the age of 6 a booster is just as safe as a harness but it sure isn't from that crash test video. Would the results be similar with a booster more substantial that the turbo? Possibly, but we don't know.
I do find it annoying that they tested the regent with the 10 year old dummy with latch when the instructions say you have to use the seat belt after 48 lbs. What is the point of testing the seat in a way that is against the manual? On the plus side the tether anchors held, which is great since some folks might not read the manual and use it with latch past 48 lbs.
I am worried about the results of the latched boosters since I have and was planning to buy more boosters that latched. On the other hand unless I missed it I don't see a side impact crash for the olli or otto. It has been said that latching a booster improves the performance in a side impact crash but of course it isn't possible to predict what kind of crash you are going to be in when you leave the house. I was quite impressed with the 6 year dummy in the ollie, maybe I'll use the latch until age 8 and then use without the latch after.
Okay after looking at the videos of the monarch I really think the monterey would be fine. The monarch is so similar to the monterey and the monarch doesn't move all that much from the bight of the seat. With the latch not getting totally tight I would not be worried about the lap belt going high on the monterey when latched.
The regent in the caravan next to the turbo booster is pretty interesting. It has been said that after the age of 6 a booster is just as safe as a harness but it sure isn't from that crash test video. Would the results be similar with a booster more substantial that the turbo? Possibly, but we don't know.
I do find it annoying that they tested the regent with the 10 year old dummy with latch when the instructions say you have to use the seat belt after 48 lbs. What is the point of testing the seat in a way that is against the manual? On the plus side the tether anchors held, which is great since some folks might not read the manual and use it with latch past 48 lbs.
I am worried about the results of the latched boosters since I have and was planning to buy more boosters that latched. On the other hand unless I missed it I don't see a side impact crash for the olli or otto. It has been said that latching a booster improves the performance in a side impact crash but of course it isn't possible to predict what kind of crash you are going to be in when you leave the house. I was quite impressed with the 6 year dummy in the ollie, maybe I'll use the latch until age 8 and then use without the latch after.
Okay after looking at the videos of the monarch I really think the monterey would be fine. The monarch is so similar to the monterey and the monarch doesn't move all that much from the bight of the seat. With the latch not getting totally tight I would not be worried about the lap belt going high on the monterey when latched.
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snowbird25ca
Moderator - CPST Instructor
Not exactly a dead stop - and herein lies one of the unknowns in regards to the tests... the front crumple zone of the vehicle absorbs a great deal of energy in a collision, and increase "ride down" time - ie, the vehicle stops moving a little slower giving the occupants a chance to slow slightly before a complete stop. Additionally, some of the tests performed were performed at speeds well below what the standards require - they exceeded minimum testing levels for other reasons - lap/shoulder belt for one, or just the fact that they were installed in a vehicle. Just a reminder to all the US folks reading this thread, that you're seeing km/hr numbers and not mph. 48km/hr is what the normal standards test is - which is the same as your 30mph. :thumbsup:
Many of the Britax seats were obtained directly from Britax. My understanding based on a conversation with Britax (as a parent,) back in 2004, was that there was no structural difference in the CDN and US Marathons - just different weight limits, but same shell. Further conversation with TC has said that there are subtle differences between the US and CDN seats - but it's more in the area of the density of energy absorbing foam and/or the comfort foam. (I'm not sure which, and I'm guessing that the person I was talking to couldn't disclose specifics.)
There were a failure of the Evenflo Generations seat, and also of I think 2? Graco Cargo seats. Amazingly - despite having a 51lb dummy secured in them, the 3in1 seats didn't have any spectacular failure - and I know in at least one of the videos the headrest was in the top unusable headrest position...
If you read the descriptions about the testing, some of the testing that was done was to specifically test how lower anchors in non-approved locations, or without a top tether performed with higher weight children. There were some purposeful misuses in some of the tests - and you can read about that in the descriptions pages. This is the page from where all the different descriptions start: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/...rograms-regulations-research-research-887.htm
Go through each of the sections to read the discussions about failures, and observations - and resulting areas that they feel standards may need to be revised or recommendations changed.
~~ I ran out of the # of posts I could quote at once, so I'm just going to address a few other points down here...
1. These test cannot be compared to CR tests in any way, shape, or form. For one thing, they are transparent. We know the testing procedures - we know that unless it was a case of specifically trying to see if an anchor would hold or what the result of using unapproved LATCH location would be, that the instructions were followed. We know that harnesses were tightened according to CMVSS protocol. We know that the dummies were clothes in the proper attire and prepared properly. Additionally, many of these tests were NOT done at unreasonable speeds. In fact many of them were done at speeds as low as 40km/hr - 8km/hr LESS than what standards require.
When calculated out, the amount of force of newtons the 51lb dummy placed on the MA harness at the higher speed collision was less than that a 65lb dummy would place on the harness at the standard test bench speed. We didn't see failures in every vehicle - best speculation right now is that different vehicles have a significant difference in the way that the front crumple zone influences the amount of energy transferred to the passengers.
Standards are currently being reviewed and revised in Canada. One of the proposed changes - and one that I expect will be implemented, is that the test bench be equipped with a lap/shoulder belt to better simulate modern day vehicles and the fact that most seats are installed with a lap/shoulder belt.
I initially voted no to the poll, because I only was considering my own seat usage... but I will now advise directly against using a seating position with a ff'ing seat in the event the top tether could slip down that crack if there is a 50/50 or 60/40 split. In cases where I know parents will be tightening the harness properly, I will suggest that they may prefer to leave the handle upright (when allowed by the child restraint.)
I have no issue with bases in general - we know the cause of the failures of the seats that detached from the base, and both manufacturers have now fixed the problems... we didn't see any other detachments aside from the Companion - but it's no longer available for sale anyways so I don't see it having any kind of recall or anything done to it...
I did observe that infant seats installed without the base seemed to be much more prone to sideways movement even in a frontal collision, and rebounded much more. I actually think looking at the pictures that the base installs seemed to look better overall.
And I was shocked to see how the Peg Perego infant seat did... for such an expensive seat it seemed to be one of the worst.
At any rate, if nothing else, this goes to show that releasing test results does only serve to muddy the water. It is impossible to pick your own collision.. and impossible to know what measurement is most important in terms of any given seat and that random collision... and then there's the variable of not knowing how your vehicle could influence the outcome of your seat's performance.
Nicole and I don't differ on a lot of things, but I personally don't feel that a 50km/hr collision is anywhere in the realm of unsurvivable. 50mph? Yeah, maybe.. but 55km/hr, should be survivable. We test vehicles to speeds of 35mph, yet only expect our child restraints to pass at 30mph. To me, that is an issue. However, it is an issue that needs to be balanced with the fact that modern day seat ARE doing a good job of protecting children and are NOT failing on a routine basis. Additionally, the need for affordable and readily accessible seats needs to be taken in to account.
So for the time being, I don't think a lot of assumptions can be made... if I was using a ff'ing MA, I admit that I would likely quit using it. And if I was using a 3in1 as a booster, I'd quit using it. But I continue to have no qualms about a rf'ing seat without a tether...
For those of you who want the quick and dirty version of the testing, follow the link I posted, and then click on each section - rf'ing, ff'ing, and booster. You'll find the summaries there and some commentary that is very very good and useful information and may help put things in perspective for you a little bit.
And like Nicole said - despite the disturbing images on the videos, for the most part injuries were within acceptable parameters. What that means in terms of a real world injuries, I can't speculate... but I can speculate it means that the behavior the seats exhibited in most cases wasn't enough to make the difference between life and death when comparing a 48km/hr collision with a 51km/hr collision. (As for the harnesses that some have wondered if they were loose, harnesses stretch in a collision - and the higher the forces of the collision, the more stretch there is going to be... that's just par for the course though.)
bubbaray
New member
Greeaattt. So not the answer I was looking for Trudy -- see my post in Nicole's thread. Sigh.
I love my MAs. DD#2 loves them, so comfy and she sleeps in them regularly. The RNs are crappy for kids to sleep in, so upright.
Sigh.
canadiangie
New member
Because I have older, larger toddlers that are still rear facing I *may* consider using seats that allow for rf tethering, rather than seats that do not allow for some rebound management.
Would you also extrapolate this to the BLVD then too since they are the same shell and it was the shell that failed? That only makes sense, but then perhaps there is some difference in the two seats that makes these results un-extrapolatable (sure, it's a word...). Thoughts Trudy?
In between cooking Thanksgiving dinner, but honestly, I would avoid the specific combination of ff MA in the Civic and Caravan because of the videos. But I am not sure worry about it in other vehicles. The ff MA did just fine in other vehicles and I hesitate to make an guessing in regard to other Honda or Dodge vehicles or Britax seats.
I personally would make a more concerted effort to increase head-excursion room for a ff child (my 2 in boosters) and rf tethered my MA and RN XT (for the 2 yr old), especially the XT in my sedan with less height room.
Professionally, I will have to take more time to think and write... Back to the kitchen to work on the stuffing
I personally would make a more concerted effort to increase head-excursion room for a ff child (my 2 in boosters) and rf tethered my MA and RN XT (for the 2 yr old), especially the XT in my sedan with less height room.
Professionally, I will have to take more time to think and write... Back to the kitchen to work on the stuffing
tiggercat
New member
This. I'm only really concerned about my MA because it happens to be in a Caravan. I will still use it FF for Megan in the Camry for now. It's not the seat I distrust, but the combination of seat + vehicle.
ETA, I am trying to decide where to put the handle for my SR32 now. I always kept it either all the way down, or in the position in my sig. Now I am wondering if I ought to keep it up? Upon rebound, Sam's head would totally slam into that headrest...
Edited again, Enjoy your thanksgiving dinner! We had ours last night and I am still stuffed!
bubbaray
New member
I personally would make a more concerted effort to increase head-excursion room for a ff child (my 2 in boosters) and rf tethered my MA and RN XT (for the 2 yr old), especially the XT in my sedan with less height room.
Professionally, I will have to take more time to think and write... Back to the kitchen to work on the stuffing
Yeah, I'm in kinda a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. My other seats are RNs -- one of which would be going in DH's Tacoma track. Now, the Tacoma in the TC videos is an extended cab and he has a crew cab, but really there is NOT much HE room in his truck. Period. And, no way to make more (he and I are both tall, so seats are all the way back.
I'm not too worried about the MA in my van, though I admit it d/n thrill me.
Combine all of this with ICBC refusing to replace my seats after I was rear ended not quite a week ago and well, I'm not a happy camper.
lynsgirl
New member
Man, I am not happy seeing this. Now I'm just confused! Why didn't they have the MA tethered in the RFing tests? And I don't like that they didn't show other RFing seats like RN, MR, and the TF more upright. So how do I know if other convertibles would be safer RFing than the MA?
DD is currently in a KF (with several inches above her head). My plan is to move her to the MA next, but she's still below the lowest strap, so it will probably be a few more months before I can do that.
But now I don't know what to do for DS2. I was going to move him to a Frontier once DD needs the MA. Should I be concerned about this decision? He's about 31-32 lbs.
I just don't know now if I should let these videos freak me out. It seems like all the seats looked horrible in the videos - but they were high-speed crashes, right? So yeah, isn't it expected that the results of a crash like that are going to be bad?
They did tether the MA in one of the RF tests, the results of which affirmed the fact that I will continue to tether my RF convertibles (that allow it
). Yes, they had the seats reclined to the max, with the 12mo dummy, which we do not generally practice IRL. I think this shows the importance of decreasing the angle as a child gets bigger/older. As a rule, we don't have close-up video of actual IRL crashes while they happening. In the vehicle. I think we need to remember that crashes are going to look bad. You aren't going to see what your carseat is doing in a crash in the same way that you can in these videos. These seats are doing their jobs. What you're seeing is the reasoning behind why we *replace* seats after crashes - because they just did their job of protecting your child from serious injury and/or death. While not dismissing the seat failures that happened in the videos, I *am* reiterating that despite that, the injury levels were *still* in acceptable levels and the dummies were not ejected from the seats. We see improperly installed seats and improperly used seats every single day as techs/advocates. And most of the kids still survive. I'm not saying we can't improve, just saying that these seats were crashed under ideal settings - properly installed, correctly used, etc (most of them. I know they purposely did some misuse testing).
I have a SS1 for my 7mo and I was honestly very impressed w/the results of the crash testing for it. I leave the handle up and will continue to do so. I think if your son has several inches above his head, he is fine. That said, I do not use RF convertibles without some sort of ARB protection (tether, ARB bar).
Re the harness tightness, we don't check for snugness at the abdomen, we check at the shoulder/collar bone level. That's where the snugness matters. You can see "between" the harness and the child at the abd. level in a variety of seats.
As a whole, I think that although these tests made us think and evaluate, etc, I also think they've shown that the seats we use and recommend the the real world *do* work, which I think should be reassuring us more than freaking us out. :thumbsup:
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