In response to Transport Canada's crash test footage and summaries

QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Original (and properly formatted) version available at:
http://www.couponsurfers.com/crashtests.html


Cut and paste version:


October 7, 2009


Introduction
On September 25, 2009, Transport Canada made the unprecedented step of publishing numerous crash test videos of child restraints performed under conditions as close to "real-world" as possible. It was an admirable attempt at public accountability. However, the move may produce more confusion than clarity in the public sector. In response to Transport Canada releasing this crash test footage, a group of Canadian Children's Restraint Systems Technicians and Instructors and American Child Passenger Safety Technicians and Instructors met online to analyze and discuss the crash test footage in an attempt to create and update recommendations for parents and other professionals based on the observations that were made by the group. The following document summarizes the observations and recommendations made by this group.


Methodology
This crash test footage and specific crash test methodology are available on Transport Canada's web site.[1][2] Standardized or compliance crash tests utilize sled-method simulations rather than real-world simulated in-vehicle testing. In-vehicle testing introduces additional variables to the crash test scenario, making it difficult to isolate any specific variable's impact on the overall results of the test. For the most part, these crash tests, which exceed the minimum compliant standards required by Transport Canada, represent ideal conditions, where child restraints are properly secured in late-model vehicles equipped with modern safety features.

Our group looked at similar performance among restraint types and orientation (rear-facing only, rear-facing convertible, forward-facing convertible and combination, and booster seats), specific restraints across vehicle models, and different restraint models in similar vehicles.


Rear-facing infant restraints
Utilizing: 12 month old Anthromorphic Test Dummy (ATD)

Observations
Numerous rear-facing infant seat tests resulted in partial or complete detachment of the infant restraints from their bases. As a result of these detachments, the ATDs came into contact with the vehicle interior. Some of these restraints have been recalled[3] or have Consumer Advisory Notices.[4] Numerous tests demonstrated significant rebound, frequently resulting in the ATD coming into contact with the vehicle interior upon rebound. Shoulder belt guide use may have increased the force with which one infant seat rebounded. In instances where infant seats were either installed in a third row or with limited clearance between the restraint and the vehicle seatback in front, rotation and distance resulted in ATDs striking the interior of the vehicle. Lowered handle positions (even with, or below, the top of the shell) may have limited the downward rotation when the handle came into contact with the vehicle interior. A raised handle position (fully upright) may have limited ATD contact with the vehicle interior on rebound. Increased shell height may be correlated with a decrease in ATD-vehicle contact upon initial downward rotation. LATCH/UAS installations may limit movement away from the seat bight, reduce downward rotation and limit rebound. A larger sample would be required to make a more firm observation with regard to LATCH/UAS versus seatbelt installations.

Recommendations
We strongly recommend advising parents not to exceed maximum height limits on infant-only child restraints; when a limited distance exists between the rear of the child restraint and the vehicle seat in front, even more conservative height limitations should be advised. We consistently observed ATD contact with vehicle interiors, primarily during instances of initial downward rotation. According to Transport Canada, this is “the way they are designed to work” and because they are coming into contact with a soft portion of the vehicle seat, "the risk of injury is low." [5] Most Child Passenger Safety Technicians and Children's Restraint Systems Technicians currently recommend that children continue to use their rear-facing child restraints until there is 1” of hard shell left above the child's head, unless weight limits are reached first. The 12 month ATD is, in most cases, at or near the maximum recommended height limit for the infant restraints tested, although it was observed that often at least 1” of hard shell existed above the ATD's head during testing. Despite clearly satisfying the 1” rule and being within the stated numerical maximum height limit of the tested child restraints, the ATDs frequently struck the vehicle interior during testing. It may be advantageous for parents to move children from infant-only restraints to rear-facing convertible seats even before the child meets the maximum stated height limits of the infant-only restraint, especially when limited front-back distance exists between vehicle seats.

ATD-vehicle contact during rebound may be limited by an anti-rebound device or a child restraint handle in an upright position. Additional ATD contact was observed upon rebound of infant-only restraints in a number of cases. Because the majority of crash forces have been transferred and absorbed prior to the rebound effect, the ATD contact with the vehicle interior upon rebound is less forceful than the initial strike when moving toward the front of the vehicle. As a result, we believe it to be of greater importance to address the factors associated with initial downward rotation than with the rebound effect. One observation that was made from the crash test footage is that ATD-vehicle contact during rebound may be limited by an anti-rebound device or a child restraint handle in an upright position; therefore, additional crash test footage and data would be beneficial to further assess the benefits of these methods.

A number of handle positions were tested. With the exception of one test that was performed with the handle in an unapproved position, all tests were done with the handles in positions approved by manufacturers. In many tests the position of the handle seemed to influence the performance of the seat, but benefit was seen in tests done with the handle in the upright position as well as in tests done with the handle down. Because benefit was observed in both positions, it is impossible to form a definite recommendation regarding whether one position may be preferable to another when the manufacturer gives parents the choice. Given that the maximum allowed rotation is regulated by standards, it may be preferable to leave the handle up when allowed by the manufacturer in order to reduce rebound. However, this recommendation needs to be factored in with other things such as the importance of a tight harness on a child to prevent the child from impacting a handle that has been left up. More information is needed on the exact effects of any additional energy transfer to the ATD as a result of handles impacting the vehicle interior before more specific recommendations, seat-specific recommendations or vehicle-specific recommendations can be made.

We recommend LATCH/UAS installations when the chosen seating position allows it - provided parent and/or Technicians are able to create a suitable installation of the restraint. From our observations, we believe it possible for there to be an increased benefit in utilizing LATCH/UAS over the vehicle seatbelt for infant-only restraints, based on the results showing that most tests measured higher head impact for infant dummies when secured with seatbelt compared to those secured by LATCH/UAS. However, we will continue to advise parents of the benefits of a centre seat install, even when LATCH use in the centre position is prohibited by either vehicle or restraint manufacturer, making a seatbelt install necesssary.

Future Forecast
Although our group did not have enough information to make specific observations about the use of rear-facing tethers, we urge Transport Canada, NHTSA, and restraint manufacturers to release in-vehicle crash test footage comparisons both with and without rear-facing tethers. Because the primary function of these crash tests was to collect data on adult occupant protection, the ability of Transport Canada to potentially alter the performance of the front vehicle seats with a rear-facing tether being added during testing may have been limited. Currently, Transport Canada’s only recommendation regarding rear-facing tethering (when allowed by the carseat manufacturer) is that it only be done to vehicle manufacturer approved tether anchorage points.

Additionally, we feel it would be beneficial to have additional information on the performance of "bracing" during in-vehicle testing. Bracing is where the top of a rear-facing child restraint is secured snugly to the vehicle seatback in front of it. Theoretically, this would limit downward rotation and the resulting child-vehicle contact during a crash. However, because the vehicle seat also moves forward at the same time as the child restraint, it is difficult to determine whether there is any true benefit to bracing. As with rear-facing tethers, more information is needed about this technique.

Technicians frequently advise parents to install restraints more upright as a child's physical development allows. In our observations of the released crash test footage, tests seemed to consistently be performed with restraints installed at or near 45 degrees. However, most Technicians would advise parents of a 12 month old to install the rear-facing restraint at an angle more upright than the maximum recline angle allowed by the manufacturer. Additional information is needed on the effects of a more upright install. Due to the ATD-vehicle contact during initial rotations, we would still recommend advising parents to install restraints as upright as suitable for their older child, to a maximum of 30 degrees, unless otherwise restricted by manufacturers.



Forward-facing restraints:
Utilizing: Hybrid-III 6yo ATD; Hybrid-III 10yo ATD

Observations
Harness failures were observed in numerous forward-facing restraints. In most of these cases, either the required minimum test speeds were exceeded or the maximum weight limits of the seats were exceeded. Some harness failures were the result of harnesses breaking through the restraint shell, whereas other failures were the result of slippage in the harness locking mechanism. Some of the latter may be addressed by a Consumer Advisory Notice. Some vehicle/restraint combinations seemed to perform poorly whereas the same seats tested at similar speeds in other vehicles performed without failure. Harness failures frequently resulted in the ATD striking the vehicle interior. According to Transport Canada, the “injury measures [of 7 out of 8 seats where harnesses failed] were within acceptable limits.”[6]


Recommendations
It is important to continue to advise parents according to Safe Kids/NHTSA and St. John Ambulance/Transport Canada curriculum and recommendations for forward-facing restraint use and is necessary to acknowledge that child restraints save lives. Even in the instances of gross failure of the restraints under real-world testing conditions that frequently exceeded the required minimum compliant standards, injuries to the ATDs were still minimal. More testing and data are needed in order to identify what factors may have contributed to the harness failures in the specific child restraints and/or vehicles in these crash tests. Although Technicians may want to be cautious about upper weight limits in certain circumstances (e.g. 2006 Honda Civic with the Britax Marathon—where we saw gross failures) there is currently no cause for alarm as a result of these tests. The forward-facing restraint failures illustrate the need for further in-vehicle crash testing and investigation.

These test results also warrant the recommendation that parents consider the distances between vehicle seating rows when installing forward-facing child restraints. When at all possible, forward-facing child restraints should be located in seating positions that maximize available space for frontal movement without striking the vehicle interior in the event of a crash.

It is advisable to continue recommending use of the top tether whenever possible. Although top tether use for forward-facing harnessed restraints is required by law in Canada, top tether use is not mandated in the United States. Technicians have historically recommended utilizing the top tether, when available, in the United States. The likelihood of a child striking the interior of the vehicle in a severe crash and the results of this crash test footage demonstrate the necessity of having all forward-facing harnessed restraints top tethered.



Belt Positioning Boosters:
Utilizing: Hybrid-III 6yo, 10yo, 5%

Observations
Test circumstances included a variety of booster types, such as: built-in, no-back, high-back and "LATCHed" vs. "non-LATCHed." Some of the test instances represented misuse by the occupant. Some tests resulted in the shoulder portion of the belt slipping off the ATD's chest and shoulder (upward to the neck, or downward to the body) or in lapbelts riding up on the ATDs during the crash. According to Transport Canada, “no-back booster seats attached to the vehicle with the lower anchors or UAS worked well in mild crashes, but increased the risk of the belt injuring the child's abdomen and under the arm in moderate to severe crashes, especially when the child is sitting in a slouched posture.”[7]

Recommendations
According to Transport Canada, the booster seats that provide the best protection in a crash are high-back boosters “with the shoulder belt guide located close to the shoulder,” identified as “Type 3.”[8] Type 3 booster seats are dedicated belt positioning booster seats. More information is needed on how specific boosters perform under different circumstances and in a larger variety of vehicles. In the meantime, we acknowledge that there may be some performance benefit to Type 3 booster seats and that such restraints may be preferable to alternatives. It would also be beneficial to obtain comparison data between the use of rigid lower anchor attachments (such as with Magna Clek products) and flexible lower anchor attachments (such as with the Sunshine Kids Monterey) to determine whether the additional loading on ATDs when using the lower anchors applies to both types of attachments before making any recommendations with regard to securing boosters with lower anchors.



Summary
We would like to extend our gratitude to Transport Canada for releasing such a comprehensive collection of in-vehicle crash test data to the public. The Canadian government has clearly taken a step toward acknowledging the importance of real-world crash test data and the more accurate representation of human occupant crashes as compared to the traditional sled tests. Although it is impossible to test every child restraint in every vehicle, we are better able to extrapolate real-world performance with a significant sampling of restraints and vehicles.

As much as these tests may bring up more questions than answers for us, it seems apparent that they do highlight the importance of real-world test data as compared to sled test data. Many of the observations made here would not have been possible based on sled test footage alone. The variables associated with vehicle crash performance are necessary in developing the greater picture of how child restraints are performing in real-world crashes.

It is our hope that the data collected will eventually contribute to updated recommendations for parents and caregivers in addition to improvements in child restraint and vehicle technologies to further increase protection for child occupants.



Authors and contributors:

Julie Abel-Gregory, CPST
Nicole Carlson, B.A., CPST, CRST-I
Fiona Dionne, CRST
Kecia Healy, CPST-I
Jennifer Matlock, CPST
Joy Miller, CPST
Trudy Slaght, CRST-I
Andrea Smith-Ruff, CPST
Thanh To, CRST-I


[1] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safevehicles-mvstm_tsd-tm-2131_e-671.htm
[2] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/...rograms-regulations-research-research-887.htm
[3] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-notices-2008p01-menu-268.htm
[4] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-notices-2009c02-menu-844.htm
[5] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safedrivers/childsafety/programs/testing/program.htm
[6] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safedrivers/childsafety/programs/testing/harness/report.htm
[7] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safedrivers/childsafety/programs/testing/booster/report.htm
[8] Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safedrivers/childsafety/programs/testing/booster/report.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ADS

K's Mama

New member
Thanks so much for the analysis!

Based on what I just read I think we will be moving DS out of his Snugride before we head out of town this weekend - he is less than 2" from the op of the shell...

May we cut and paste this info to share with other groups?
 

QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Keep in mind that we don't have any information with regards to the more upright angle most of us use here for older kids (hence taller..) So a properly restrained RF older child with 2" of shell above their head still falls within "limits".. Unfortunately, most parents don't properly restrain their kids and that extra play in the harness may make all the difference in the world as compared to the ideal conditions of the tests.. :(

-Nicole.
 

QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Oh and yes, feel free to use the document. Citation can either be for the URL with the HTML document, or the post in this thread.

-Nicole.
 

K's Mama

New member
Keep in mind that we don't have any information with regards to the more upright angle most of us use here for older kids (hence taller..) So a properly restrained RF older child with 2" of shell above their head still falls within "limits".. Unfortunately, most parents don't properly restrain their kids and that extra play in the harness may make all the difference in the world as compared to the ideal conditions of the tests.. :(

-Nicole.

DS is only 5 months, so he's still pretty reclined in his seat ATM. My older is RF'ing in a TF - quite upright and LOTS of shell above her head. W'll move DS (he's a BIG boy) into our MA.
 

Shanora

Well-known member
even more conservative height limitations should be advised...<cut>..Despite clearly satisfying the 1” rule and being within the stated numerical maximum height limit of the tested child restraints, the ATDs frequently struck the vehicle interior during testing. It may be advantageous for parents to move children from infant-only restraints to rear-facing convertible seats even before the child meets the maximum stated height limits of the infant-only restraint,

So while I somewhat understand this, and I've read your above responce about the angle, I'm no longer sure how I should advise parents, and MYSELF. DD is WELL within the limits (both height AND weight), but I'm concerned about the rebounding and hitting the seat. Is it something I should be concerned about, or do you mean that as she gets older and I adjust the recline for upright she "should" be fine?

*sigh* You are all right, it raises MORE questions than answers!
 

bubbaray

New member
Thanks ladies.

I have to say, I'm more than a tad freaked about my FFg MAs in my 2005 Ody (lots of room, but a Honda product like the Civic) and in my DH's Tacoma crew cab truck -- where there is NO room. DD#2 is 32 pounds, so over the weight max for one of my MAs and 1lb under the weight max of the other MA. I have no option in my current seat lineup to RF her -- and it would not be possible in the Tacoma in any event.

Would you move her to FFg RNs? For purely esthetic reasons, I'd really love to keep her in the MAs (love the covers), but also b/c she still sleeps frequently in the car and the MA is so comfy for her.

Thoughts??
 

rachandsoph

New member
Thanks ladies.

I have to say, I'm more than a tad freaked about my FFg MAs in my 2005 Ody (lots of room, but a Honda product like the Civic) and in my DH's Tacoma crew cab truck -- where there is NO room. DD#2 is 32 pounds, so over the weight max for one of my MAs and 1lb under the weight max of the other MA. I have no option in my current seat lineup to RF her -- and it would not be possible in the Tacoma in any event.

Would you move her to FFg RNs? For purely esthetic reasons, I'd really love to keep her in the MAs (love the covers), but also b/c she still sleeps frequently in the car and the MA is so comfy for her.
Thoughts??

This has been going through my head too. Curious to see the responses.
 

Shanora

Well-known member
I am too, but my hubby thinks its just a fluke, and that its because they didn't top tether the seats. Mind you, this being said, I'm stongly considering getting DS#2 a radian....
 

lynsgirl

New member
Thanks ladies.

I have to say, I'm more than a tad freaked about my FFg MAs in my 2005 Ody (lots of room, but a Honda product like the Civic) and in my DH's Tacoma crew cab truck -- where there is NO room. DD#2 is 32 pounds, so over the weight max for one of my MAs and 1lb under the weight max of the other MA. I have no option in my current seat lineup to RF her -- and it would not be possible in the Tacoma in any event.

Would you move her to FFg RNs? For purely esthetic reasons, I'd really love to keep her in the MAs (love the covers), but also b/c she still sleeps frequently in the car and the MA is so comfy for her.

Thoughts??

I have a just-turning-3yo the same size and he is currently RF in his MA. IF he were to need to be FF, I would still be absolutely ok with that. The failure(s) happened in specific vehicles with ATDs that were ~51lbs. For now, until we learn more, I would feel just fine with a 32lb child in a FF MA in a Honda Odyssey. The Odyssey is *not* the same vehicle as a Civic, whether it's made by Honda or not. The crash effects of a heavy minivan are going to be different from a small car. There has been a lot of theorizing as to why the Civic, which has such stellar ratings for front-seat passengers, would have such abysmal problems in the back seat. I think Tam posted about that in the other thread. For the Tacoma, the Radian was tested FF in the backseat and had a spectacularly not good result (disclaimer - not saying this is a bad seat or a bad vehicle or that it *would* happen to you. Just making mention of that fact). Do you have bucket seats in the front of your Tacoma? Is there a bench in the extended cab or two separate seats? Sorry for asking obvious questions - I'm not terribly familiar with that vehicle. If there is the option of putting her seat in the center rear (if you have bucket seats), I'd try for that and I wouldn't have a problem using the MA. If you can't use it in the center, could you put the front seat as far forward as possible? (again, assuming bucket seats).

OK, wait - you are saying "crew cab," but also saying there is "no room." Is it a true crew cab (4 full doors) or an extended cab? If it's a true crew cab, that changes some things.
 

TheNimpsGirl

New member
Recommendations
We strongly recommend advising parents not to exceed maximum height limits on infant-only child restraints; when a limited distance exists between the rear of the child restraint and the vehicle seat in front, even more conservative height limitations should be advised.

Just so I'm understanding correctly, so is it now advised that height requirements should be considered firm like weight requirements are? I ask because DS is in a SS1 and is 27.75", the SS1 goes up to 30" but he has at least 4 inches of shell above his head. Does that mean I should stop using it when he's 30" or when he has what, 2" above his head because the 1" rule seems to no longer be suggested? I thought I had more time in the seat but there isn't a lot of room in my car between his car seat and the front seats so now I'm concerned.

And thank you all for all the hard work you must have done to put the response together!
 

QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I personally think the 1" rule is just fine--as long as you have those ideal conditions..(distance between seats, tight harness).. as soon as you introduce some slack to the harness or have really close quarters in the vehicle plus a 45 degree angle...maybe 1" isn't so ideal? Until we are able to get more information and some more test results, why not err on the side of caution when we're dealing with parents (and less than ideal conditions in many cases) since we DO have rear-facing convertibles to move to. I'm probably going to be telling parents that their infant seats are outgrown BEFORE there's only 1" of hard shell remaining above the child's head. Meaning 1" is the *last resort*, not the rule of thumb? I can't wait to get more data on seats more upright than 45 degrees as well as bracing--until then, who REALLY knows?

I'm not sure how the numerical height limitations versus the 1" rule all play into this.. it's possible for the manufacturers to come back at us for having recommended the 1" rule all these years? That would be great for discussion.

Keep in mind that I'm just a tech, just like most everyone else here... "Err on the side of caution" just seems like the safest bet for the time being. Caution, not paranoia :)

-Nicole.
 
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TheNimpsGirl

New member
Thanks for the response. DS's seat is more upright than 45 degrees but still within the indicator and his harness is always, always tight. We check every single time! I think that I will just keep an eye on him... he is a peanut and has barely grown half an inch in the last three months so unless he suddenly grows overnight and we don't notice, I'm fine with him still using the SS1 for now. It's all very interesting for sure!
 

InternationalMama

New member
Until we are able to get more information and some more test results, why not err on the side of caution when we're dealing with parents (and less than ideal conditions in many cases) since we DO have rear-facing convertibles to move to. I'm probably going to be telling parents that their infant seats are outgrown BEFORE there's only 1" of hard shell remaining above the child's head.

In many cases parents choose to forward face their children after they outgrow their infant seat though so when you advise a parent that the seat is outgrown before the 1" is reach they may be putting that child not into an RF convertible, which might be safer based on the test results, but instead into an FF seat. I think that needs to be taken into account when advising parents to stop using the infant seat sooner.
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
In many cases parents choose to forward face their children after they outgrow their infant seat though so when you advise a parent that the seat is outgrown before the 1" is reach they may be putting that child not into an RF convertible, which might be safer based on the test results, but instead into an FF seat. I think that needs to be taken into account when advising parents to stop using the infant seat sooner.


I don't think there are many techs here would suggest a 'baby' going from an infant seat directly to a ff seat, even when reaching the max height and weight limits of the infant seat. Most infant seats still have 20/22 lbs limit and a few has 30 lbs limit. The recommendation has been to rf as long as possible which means for most babies, infant seat to a rf convertible (and to a harnessed ff then a booster, as the next progression)

Of course, in many cases, there are more than one thing to consider and we just have to make sure to recommend the best option. In the example you mentioned, obviously if the parent is the type that keen to ff their baby straight after the infant seat, then we just have to make sure the baby remain in the infant seat until either the weight or the 1" rule is reached, with harness tightly and the distance between carseat and vehicle seat is as much as possible.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
So while I somewhat understand this, and I've read your above responce about the angle, I'm no longer sure how I should advise parents, and MYSELF. DD is WELL within the limits (both height AND weight), but I'm concerned about the rebounding and hitting the seat. Is it something I should be concerned about, or do you mean that as she gets older and I adjust the recline for upright she "should" be fine?

*sigh* You are all right, it raises MORE questions than answers!

Are you concerned she will rebound more or harder if she's more upright to begin with? From what I've read, it's really the downward rotation that is likely to cause injury (force from the harness into the shoulders, or the head ramping up and out of the seat into the front seatbacks), while the rebound doesn't seem to be a cause of bad injury (orbital fractures, as I understand it, about the same as when they are learning to walk and fall on their faces).
 

InternationalMama

New member
I don't think there are many techs here would suggest a 'baby' going from an infant seat directly to a ff seat, even when reaching the max height and weight limits of the infant seat.

I've been hanging out long enough on these forums to at least know this. :):thumbsup: But I just think that trying to decide on an individual basis whether the to tell the parent the seat is outgrown could get difficult (and confusing for parents) quickly. I'm imagining this scenerio:

Q: Is my child's infant seat outgrown?
A: Well, that depends. What seat are you going to put him/her in if I say yes?

I know there would be other ways to word the recommendation/response, but I was replying specifically to QuassEE's comment:
I'm probably going to be telling parents that their infant seats are outgrown BEFORE there's only 1" of hard shell remaining above the child's head.
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I've been hanging out long enough on these forums to at least know this. :):thumbsup: But I just think that trying to decide on an individual basis whether the to tell the parent the seat is outgrown could get difficult (and confusing for parents) quickly. I'm imagining this scenerio:

Q: Is my child's infant seat outgrown?
A: Well, that depends. What seat are you going to put him/her in if I say yes?

I know there would be other ways to word the recommendation/response, but I was replying specifically to QuassEE's comment:

Gotcha! :)

However, I think Nicole just left off the 'get into a rf convertible next' part out because it is obvious to us.
 

bubbaray

New member
For the Tacoma, the Radian was tested FF in the backseat and had a spectacularly not good result (disclaimer - not saying this is a bad seat or a bad vehicle or that it *would* happen to you. Just making mention of that fact). Do you have bucket seats in the front of your Tacoma? Is there a bench in the extended cab or two separate seats? Sorry for asking obvious questions - I'm not terribly familiar with that vehicle. If there is the option of putting her seat in the center rear (if you have bucket seats), I'd try for that and I wouldn't have a problem using the MA. If you can't use it in the center, could you put the front seat as far forward as possible? (again, assuming bucket seats).

OK, wait - you are saying "crew cab," but also saying there is "no room." Is it a true crew cab (4 full doors) or an extended cab? If it's a true crew cab, that changes some things.


The Tacoma pictured in the videos is older than the one we have -- we have a brand new 2009 (got it just before the 2010s came out in June). It is a full crew cab with 4 "real" doors and large back seat. Airbags all around, etc. 5* safety rating (which is the main reason DH got it -- the other truck in the running was the Silverado/Sierra, which had poor crash test ratings).

While in theory it is possible to put a seat center, we can't b/c we can't get a good puzzle with DD#1's Nautilus. Both seats are outboard, installed via LATCH (both children are under 48lbs, which is Toyota's LATCH limit). THe seats are somewhat angled upwards at the front end, which makes installs a PITA. The MA was particularly hard due to the base. I haven't tried a RN in there.

There definitely isn't a lot of room at all between the child restraint and the front seats. The front seats are bucket, but both DH and I are tall and need to have the seats all the way back to fit.

I'm very concerned about the truck. A new truck is NOT an option -- it IS a new truck and was purchased specifically due to its high crash test ratings. DH will drive it till it drops -- his previously Pathfinder was nearly 14yrs old. I have to find a way to make these restraints safer if possible.

The issue isn't as huge a deal in my van as there is a decent amount of room between the restraints and the front seats. Still, I'm NOT happy when I watch those videos. Not at all.
TIA.
 

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