Consumer Reports Safety Alert - (Withdrawn)

[emandbri]

I'm finding it very odd that they recomend the snugride with EPS foam when it looks like they didn't test any of the snugrides without the foam.

[Wineaux]

Hello!

First post here. My wife and I are expecting our first child on July 5th, and of course I am doing all the requisite research on car seats, strollers, and the like. I figure, get all my ducks in row before it gets too late, or I begin to freak out at the impending birth!

So, I viewed the Consumer Reports segment on the Early Show the other day with great interest. I had been lurking here and reading reviews and posts for a week or two before the segment aired, so I rushed here to see what the folks here had to say.

There were several things that struck me in the CR article that seemed to have been missed in the replies. Someone eluded to it, but never really took it head on. That is the fact that a Britax European model outperformed all the other car seats, including the US model Britax, which failed the test! I have included the link to the Euro car seat article below.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/b...seats_euro.htm

I have seen several people mention the fact that they tested the Graco SafeSeat with a 30lb dummy, and only used 22lb dummies for the other car seats. Yes they did. They tested the seats based upon the manufacturers maximum "claimed" weight for the seats.

We used a test dummy weighing the maximum claimed weight for each seat. That’s 30 pounds for the Graco SafeSeat and 22 pounds for the others.

Consumers will use their seats to the manufacturers maximum quite a lot of the time. I'm quite certain that many people purchased the Graco SafeSeat for the very reason that they could keep their child in that seat for a longer period of time, saving them money.

The crash test speeds were also mentioned. That they were higher than the NHTSA's standard tests. Sorry, but many accidents occur at higher speeds than that tested by the NHTSA. In fact, they test car seats at a lower speed than the cars they are traveling in! Um... Do the car seats have a breaking mechanism that slows them down in a crash to lower than the vehicle they are in? I think not.

From reading the article, and the companion European article, it is quite obvious that the NHTSA tests are not adequate. When a company, Britax, makes a car seat for the European market which is safer than the ones they sell here in the US, we should be paying close attention! The European crash safety standards are MUCH stricter than they are here in the US.

There is exactly ONE reason that a seat, or at the very least the technology of said seat, made for more exacting standards is not sold in the US. That reason is profit. The US is a self contained market, and if you do not have to add parts which will add to the manufacturing cost of an item, even if it is for added safety, then your profit margins are LARGER. That's it folks.

The pseudo excuse given by the Britax spokeswoman in the above linked article is particularly telling. "Britax spokeswoman Jeanna Rimmer says that nuances in the regulations and consumer preferences of different countries mean that manufacturers must create different car seats for different markets."

Consumer preferences? Are they insinuating that we "prefer" to have car seats which are less safe than the ones Britax manufactures for the European market? Of course not. It's this phrase that tells the rather obvious truth: "nuances in the regulations". The "nuance" in the regulations is that we have LESS strict regulations than they have in Europe, and so they can save money by not including the added safety features that are REQUIRED in Europe!

I don't work for CR, Britax, or any other company that makes or sells car seats. I am a VERY concerned new parent, and someone whom has always been a very vocal and forceful advocate for consumer rights. I personally do not let companies get away with jack when it comes to the products and services they sell. Put up, or shut up is my philosophy. I tend to make the companies I deal with "put up" on a regular basis. You know the old adage? "The squeaky wheel get the grease?" I'm that squeaky wheel...

So what car seat should I buy? Well, I am certainly looking at the top two performers, but the article I linked above has me thinking beyond that. I'm now looking at online companies selling the Britax Cosy Tot and the ISOFIX base. My mother travels to England on a regular basis, and I very well may have her buy us this car seat and an extra ISOFIX base for my car. I'll be contacting Britax to find our which of their US made car seats will fit on the ISOFIX base as well.

Has anyone here ever ordered a car seat from overseas? Has anyone used one of these European ISOFOX type bases that add in the rebound bar and the "foot" that attaches to the floorboard of your vehicle? Any help is of course greatly appreciated, and I will report back what I get from Britax regarding their ISOFIX base. I see that Graco also makes an ISOFOX base as well, and I'll be checking with them to see if their US seats are compatible with that base as well.

Sorry about the long first post, but this is MY first child we're talking about here, and I am not at all thrilled that our government is "compromising" my child's safety to help car seat manufacturers improve their bottom line and make their shareholders happier...

[CPSDarren]

Thank you for your comments. You make a lot of great points. It's too bad that Consumer Reports is not available to respond to issues regarding the hysteria they have created.

As for using a European seat, I would generally not recommend it. While it is true that their standards may be stricter in some areas, they may not be as strict in others. There are a large number of differences, and they are not as black and white as CR suggests. I would much rather see concerned parents buying convertible restraints and use them rear-facing, as these seats do not have the same issue of detaching from a base.

Our federal standards are in need of an update, especially for side impact testing of child restraints. Sadly, this is a slow process that has been going for many years and may take many more. Hopefully, Consumer Reports will speed up the process.

You may be interested to know that the discontinued Britax Baby Safe had a rigid ISOFIX base and a foot, very much like the European version (I believe the Cozy Tot and Baby Safe were nearly the same model). It was very expensive, however, and this may be part of the reason it was discontinued. Thus the comment about consumer preferences, perhaps- consumers in the USA did not recognize the benefits at the time and were not willing to spend the extra money.

[Wineaux]

You may be interested to know that the discontinued Britax Baby Safe had a rigid ISOFIX base and a foot, very much like the European version. It was very expensive, however, and this may be part of the reason it was discontinued. Thus the comment about consumer preferences, perhaps- consumers in the USA did not recognize the benefits at the time and were not willing to spend the extra money.

The added expense most certainly came from the fact that they were only making and selling one car seat with that base and feature. If it were required by law, and the manufacturers were required to put it on all of their car seats, then economies of scale would drastically lower the costs. Sure, there would be price increases for car seats, but there were price increases in cars when they added safety belts and air bags, and we don't question the increased safety and reduced loss of life from those added safety benefits now do we?

Remember, the automobile manufacturers fought tooth and nail to keep the government from requiring safety belts and air bags in our cars. They claimed it would cost too much and consumers wouldn't spend the money. Uh yeah... It just meant that their profit margins shrunk a bit. Not requiring side impact tests, and having lower crash test speeds than the cars that car seats are inside of is not a compromise that I want to see our government make. The NHTSA should be creating tests that are designed with the safety of our children in mind, and not the financial stability of the manufacturer.

In what areas are the European car seats less safe than those in the US? Which standards are less stringent? Is it strictly the way that the back seats are designed? Even if the European seats are not designed for LATCH, and the CR article is pretty clear that without using the LATCH system many of the car seats that failed would not have done so, wouldn't they attach correctly using a seat belt tether?

What can I say? I'm looking for both safety and guidance here. My wife wants a travel system, at least at the early stages so we can get our child in and out of the car, and onto a stroller, without waking them. That seems to call for a car seat with a base and matching stroller. After the first year or so, I am heavily leaning towards the new Sunshine Kids Radian80 that has the EPS foam and looks like it will stay with us until it's time for or child to stop using car seats at all. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

[CPSDarren]

Originally Posted by Wineaux

The crash test speeds were also mentioned. That they were higher than the NHTSA's standard tests. Sorry, but many accidents occur at higher speeds than that tested by the NHTSA. In fact, they test car seats at a lower speed than the cars they are traveling in! Um... Do the car seats have a breaking mechanism that slows them down in a crash to lower than the vehicle they are in? I think not.

Consumer Reports doesn't give the whole story on this. From what I have found, the NHTSA side impact test for vehicles is done at a higher speed than over 95% of side impacts that occur in real crashes. It is true that many do happen at higher speeds, but it isn't very common.

Also, car seats do indeed have a braking mechanism of a sort. The whole point of securing a car seat to a vehicle is to give the child seat the advantage of the vehicle's crushing frame to ride down the crash. I have been told by crash testing experts that a 30 mph side impact to a typical vehicle would be the rough equivalent of 14-18mph if the a child seat was tested on a laboratory sled. That's not to say that testing at a higher speed isn't valid, but it would be at a significantly higher energy than the overwhelming majority of real world crashes.

We can certainly ask for our child seats to be safer at these higher speeds, but I would also expect that there would be a much higher cost involved. The question ultimately becomes how safe is needed? At what point are the returns so diminishing that we aren't saving many more lives? Keep in mind that as prices increase, more people are likely not to buy these new seats and their children are more likely to be unrestrained or inadequately restrained in older, used seats. I don't have a good answer for this.

[CPSDarren]

The added expense most certainly came from the fact that they were only making and selling one car seat with that base and feature. If it were required by law, and the manufacturers were required to put it on all of their car seats, then economies of scale would drastically lower the costs. Sure, there would be price increases for car seats, but there were price increases in cars when they added safety belts and air bags, and we don't question the increased safety and reduced loss of life from those added safety benefits now do we?

There are many people who still feel features like ABS, airbags and stability control are not saving lives and only adding more cost. I'm not one of them, but there certainly would be questions if the cost of infant seats rose significantly, even with economies of scale. Many wouldn't question, they simply wouldn't be able to afford one. That's the case even today. The support we've had in our organization for providing or subsidizing child seats has all but disappeared and many low income parents struggle to buy used seats made many years ago. These parents also drive cars from 10 or more years ago that lack all these advanced safety features, because new cars are priced out of their range.

Remember, the automobile manufacturers fought tooth and nail to keep the government from requiring safety belts and air bags in our cars. They claimed it would cost too much and consumers wouldn't spend the money. Uh yeah... It just meant that their profit margins shrunk a bit. Not requiring side impact tests, and having lower crash test speeds than the cars that car seats are inside of is not a compromise that I want to see our government make. The NHTSA should be creating tests that are designed with the safety of our children in mind, and not the financial stability of the manufacturer.

The NHTSA does need updated standards. They will happen in time, maybe sooner if concerned voters start complaining to their political appointees.

In what areas are the European car seats less safe than those in the US? Which standards are less stringent? Is it strictly the way that the back seats are designed? Even if the European seats are not designed for LATCH, and the CR article is pretty clear that without using the LATCH system many of the car seats that failed would not have done so, wouldn't they attach correctly using a seat belt tether?

As for the differences in standards, I am not familiar with the fine details. I know the bench itself varies considerably, as do the requirements for using lap-only belts and shoulder belts. I have been told in the past by crash testing experts that the US standards do make it more difficult to pass some measures, even at lower speeds. Of course, for side impacts, there is no US standard, so that is a very major omission.

What can I say? I'm looking for both safety and guidance here. My wife wants a travel system, at least at the early stages so we can get our child in and out of the car, and onto a stroller, without waking them. That seems to call for a car seat with a base and matching stroller. After the first year or so, I am heavily leaning towards the new Sunshine Kids Radian80 that has the EPS foam and looks like it will stay with us until it's time for or child to stop using car seats at all. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Consumer Reports has some very good points, to be sure. Even so, they don't tell the whole story, don't share any of their methods and aren't available to answer questions from concerned parents or child passenger safety experts. As for options, you said it best about preferences. If a convertible seat does not have the major flaw (detachable carrier) that many infant seats do in the USA, that difference in safety may be a preference over being able to move the baby in a carrier or being able to match a stroller. My favorite infant seat was the Baby Trend LATCH Loc. It's similar to the Flex Loc, but has rigid LATCH attachments. Sadly, Consumer Reports neglected to test it in the most recent review. It had been difficult to find due to an exclusive deal with Babies R Us, but it sounds like it may now be coming to other stores like Target. You may also be lucky enough to find a Britax Baby Safe. In that it is nearly identical to the Cozy Tot praised by Consumer Reports, you'd essentially have a model that should pass both USA and European standards (though perhaps not officially). I note that the Cosy Tot sells for about £90 at online retail stores in Great Britain. The base is optional and also sells for about £90. Even on sale or Ebay, that's in the range of the $299 the Baby Safe sold for in the USA. Consumer Reports conveniently failed to mention that, too.

[Wineaux]

Originally Posted by CPSDarren

Consumer Reports doesn't give the whole story on this. From what I have found, the NHTSA side impact test for vehicles is done at a higher speed than over 95% of side impacts that occur in real crashes. It is true that many do happen at higher speeds, but it isn't very common.

Also, car seats do indeed have a braking mechanism of a sort. The whole point of securing a car seat to a vehicle is to give the child seat the advantage of the vehicle's crushing frame to ride down the crash. I have been told by crash testing experts that a 30 mph side impact to a typical vehicle would be the rough equivalent of 14-18mph if the a child seat was tested on a laboratory sled. That's not to say that testing at a higher speed isn't valid, but it would be at a significantly higher energy than the overwhelming majority of real world crashes.

We can certainly ask for our child seats to be safer at these higher speeds, but I would also expect that there would be a much higher cost involved. The question ultimately becomes how safe is needed? At what point are the returns so diminishing that we aren't saving many more lives? Keep in mind that as prices increase, more people are likely not to buy these new seats and their children are more likely to be unrestrained or inadequately restrained in older, used seats. I don't have a good answer for this.

Ah ha! Very informative, and you are quite correct, I didn't take into consideration the fact that car seat would be riding down the impact. That pesky ole physics at work again!

I will point out that the whole "costs" issue is one that manufacturers have continuously brought up as the great bugaboo of safety testing, and have so far, been proven wrong every time. I firmly believe that side impact testing is long overdue, and should be implemented immediately. Sooner rather than later in this case.

PS... I have been doing some searching on the site but have not yet found an answer to this question. How does one become a Certified CPS Tech? What is involved, etc? It's something I would love to become involved in. Feel free to PM me the answer, or start a new thread so this one doesn't get too derailed.

[CPSDarren]

I will point out that the whole "costs" issue is one that manufacturers have continuously brought up as the great bugaboo of safety testing, and have so far, been proven wrong every time. I firmly believe that side impact testing is long overdue, and should be implemented immediately. Sooner rather than later in this case.

I completely agree. I also understand that with all the regulations and testing and potential liability, the margins on child seats are not like those on autos and many other products. They do need to be very safe, but the issue is at what point does additional safety for the most severe (and also relatively rare) crashes outweigh the increases in price for those that already can't afford a new child seat. I don't have that answer.

PS... I have been doing some searching on the site but have not yet found an answer to this question. How does one become a Certified CPS Tech? What is involved, etc? It's something I would love to become involved in. Feel free to PM me the answer, or start a new thread so this one doesn't get too derailed.

These websites are a great place to start for information on certification:

http://www.safekids.org/certification/

http://www.cpsboard.org

[Alicia-N-2SafeBugs]

I go out of town for a couple days and look what I miss!

This is just my observations and reitterating what others have said...

The test footage of the Britax Companion where it "jumps off the seat and slams back down again"...isn't that what it's supposed to do!? That's just how infant seats perform..right?

That bench seat looks awfully wierd...like it was made from the kind of foam and plastic you find McDonald's playground floors made out of. What is with there being no front seat? In a real life crash, there is going to be a front seat there and prevent some movement.

In the MSNBC video, I was rolling my eyes at the footage of the person trying to install the Eddie Bauer base...no matter what base they were trying to install it would not have worked since the seatbelt wasn't locked.

CR didn't do this report to protect children. They did this report to make money as is evident by their refusing to disclose crash testing methods, etc. I don't buy it.

[CPSDarren]

Even in the USA crash tests, there is no front seat. Experts debate whether the seat would prevent any movement. In a real crash, the front seat is probably moving forward just as the child seat behind it is. As you said, rebound is a normal result of a crash with a rear-facing seat. Without an anti-rebound system, that will certainly happen. The Companion does have a rebound bar, I'm not sure what aspect of the test resulted in the bounce CR found objectionable. It's another mystery of CR's methods. It's also not clear if preventing rebound is any significant reduction in risk for serious injuries or fatalities. It's probably a good thing, but because rear-facing seats are inherently very safe, the improvement may not be as significant as CR implies.

It's not clear how CR conducted their tests or how they evaluated their injury measures. What is certain is that rear-facing seats in the USA have a very low incidence of fatalities compared to other modes of travel and most of those statistics are from much older models.

[lodonal65]

Originally Posted by CPSDarren

Even in the USA crash tests, there is no front seat. Experts debate whether the seat would prevent any movement. In a real crash, the front seat is probably moving forward just as the child seat behind it is. As you said, rebound is a normal result of a crash with a rear-facing seat. Without an anti-rebound system, that will certainly happen. The Companion does have a rebound bar, I'm not sure what aspect of the test resulted in the bounce CR found objectionable. It's another mystery of CR's methods. It's also not clear if preventing rebound is any significant reduction in risk for serious injuries or fatalities. It's probably a good thing, but because rear-facing seats are inherently very safe, the improvement may not be as significant as CR implies.

It's not clear how CR conducted their tests or how they evaluated their injury measures. What is certain is that rear-facing seats in the USA have a very low incidence of fatalities compared to other modes of travel and most of those statistics are from much older models.

This why I questioned a few months ago- why the IIHS doesn't do some child restraint crash tests in REAL vehicles.
Maybe then we would be able to see exactly how well they perform.
I have a question too about CR testing. Do they use the computerized dummies like the IIHS do to show what kinds of crash forces are exerted on the dummies bodies?

[CPSDarren]

Unfortunately, I can't answer about CR testing. They don't tell anyone, so no one knows. Even some crash testing experts are baffled by some of their inconsistencies, based on emails I've received.

As for the IIHS, it may have to do with money. Their main effort is with vehicles. Child restraints already protect their passengers very well, perhaps there isn't a lot to be gained by insurance companies compared to the money spent? I really have no idea. On the other hand, I DO think the NHTSA should be doing this. We spend billions on a bird flu threat that isn't even real yet. If we spent that much more on this real and present epidemic of child fatalities in motor vehicles crashes, we could expect a lot more from the NHTSA. Of course, they'd also have to have the mindset to make changes in an expedient manner and not be slowed down my manufacturer lobbying.

[UlrikeDG]

Originally Posted by Wineaux

The pseudo excuse given by the Britax spokeswoman in the above linked article is particularly telling. "Britax spokeswoman Jeanna Rimmer says that nuances in the regulations and consumer preferences of different countries mean that manufacturers must create different car seats for different markets."

Consumer preferences? Are they insinuating that we "prefer" to have car seats which are less safe than the ones Britax manufactures for the European market?

Well, having lived in Europe, I can tell you some of the differences I noticed. One is that European seats don't have chest clips. If you're using a seat properly, a chest clip is unnecessary. It's sole purpose is to hold the straps in place when the harness isn't adjusted as tight as it should be. But, US seats have them, so we have to use them according to manufacturer instruction. Parents in the US expect a chest clip. Fisher Price released a seat without a chest clip once, and parents were outraged by the lack of this "safety feature."

Infant seats with a stay-in-the-car bases were also rare. Here, they're the norm. Most, if not all, European infant seats are designed to be installed with the shoulder belt wrapping around the seatback, which helps to limit downward rotation. Those seats may not even fit in US vehicles.

In most of Europe, infant seats have rear facing weight limits of 10-13 kg (22-28.6 lb), and convertible seats are unusual.

In the US, vehicles must have self locking belts. In Europe, seats must have a built in locking mechanism for the belt (like Britax's lock-offs).

Certainly money comes in to play. Probably a lot more than any of us would like to admit. But, don't downplay the differences in culture across the ocean. Consumer expectations are extremely different.

[Starlight]

Did anybody see Graco's response?

"As parents ourselves, we at Graco® are committed to producing high-quality products that help keep children safe. All Graco car seats, including the Graco SnugRide® and Infant SafeSeat™, meet or exceed all applicable government standards.

We believe that the standard of safety for child restraints lies with the stringent regulations established over time by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), supported by rigorous industry testing and analysis. Graco will continue to work closely with NHTSA as such regulations continue to evolve.

If you have questions or comments regarding your Graco car seat, please contact our customer service line at (800) 345-4109."

New here, have to say we did buy a Britax Baby Safe in 2005 for our latest addition to the family. Looks exactly like the cozy tot. Loved the stabilizing foot, seat was rock solid. Just moved it out today, replaced by a Boulevard. After a little over one year of use the harness was getting a little too snug over winter-wear.

After 6 years of Britax seats, I didn't think they could do much more to improve on the safety of the seat - that foot really changed my mind about that. Too bad more consumers weren't going for that option, if the demand was there maybe more manufacturers would start using it.

[CPSDarren]

Welcome!

Maybe you can play on the fears generated by Consumer Reports and get your money back (or more) for the Baby Safe on ebay ;-) The Baby Safe really was ahead of its time.

[skaterbabscpst]

The Baby Safe was a nice seat - as was it's predecessor the Handle With Care. (I had a HWC and LOVED it! it fit my then-TINY daughter far better than our SnugRide and took up less space in the car.)

That said, you mentioned using winter wear in it - you should NEVER use heavy clothing/coats in the car. If you have to loosen the harness for it, it is too bulky to use and can cause your child to be ejected.

[momika]

Originally Posted by Wineaux

Hello!

First post here. My wife and I are expecting our first child on July 5th, and of course I am doing all the requisite research on car seats, strollers, and the like. I figure, get all my ducks in row before it gets too late, or I begin to freak out at the impending birth!

So, I viewed the Consumer Reports segment on the Early Show the other day with great interest. I had been lurking here and reading reviews and posts for a week or two before the segment aired, so I rushed here to see what the folks here had to say.

There were several things that struck me in the CR article that seemed to have been missed in the replies. Someone eluded to it, but never really took it head on. That is the fact that a Britax European model outperformed all the other car seats, including the US model Britax, which failed the test! I have included the link to the Euro car seat article below.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/b...seats_euro.htm

I have seen several people mention the fact that they tested the Graco SafeSeat with a 30lb dummy, and only used 22lb dummies for the other car seats. Yes they did. They tested the seats based upon the manufacturers maximum "claimed" weight for the seats.

Consumers will use their seats to the manufacturers maximum quite a lot of the time. I'm quite certain that many people purchased the Graco SafeSeat for the very reason that they could keep their child in that seat for a longer period of time, saving them money.

The crash test speeds were also mentioned. That they were higher than the NHTSA's standard tests. Sorry, but many accidents occur at higher speeds than that tested by the NHTSA. In fact, they test car seats at a lower speed than the cars they are traveling in! Um... Do the car seats have a breaking mechanism that slows them down in a crash to lower than the vehicle they are in? I think not.

From reading the article, and the companion European article, it is quite obvious that the NHTSA tests are not adequate. When a company, Britax, makes a car seat for the European market which is safer than the ones they sell here in the US, we should be paying close attention! The European crash safety standards are MUCH stricter than they are here in the US.

There is exactly ONE reason that a seat, or at the very least the technology of said seat, made for more exacting standards is not sold in the US. That reason is profit. The US is a self contained market, and if you do not have to add parts which will add to the manufacturing cost of an item, even if it is for added safety, then your profit margins are LARGER. That's it folks.

The pseudo excuse given by the Britax spokeswoman in the above linked article is particularly telling. "Britax spokeswoman Jeanna Rimmer says that nuances in the regulations and consumer preferences of different countries mean that manufacturers must create different car seats for different markets."

Consumer preferences? Are they insinuating that we "prefer" to have car seats which are less safe than the ones Britax manufactures for the European market? Of course not. It's this phrase that tells the rather obvious truth: "nuances in the regulations". The "nuance" in the regulations is that we have LESS strict regulations than they have in Europe, and so they can save money by not including the added safety features that are REQUIRED in Europe!

I don't work for CR, Britax, or any other company that makes or sells car seats. I am a VERY concerned new parent, and someone whom has always been a very vocal and forceful advocate for consumer rights. I personally do not let companies get away with jack when it comes to the products and services they sell. Put up, or shut up is my philosophy. I tend to make the companies I deal with "put up" on a regular basis. You know the old adage? "The squeaky wheel get the grease?" I'm that squeaky wheel...

So what car seat should I buy? Well, I am certainly looking at the top two performers, but the article I linked above has me thinking beyond that. I'm now looking at online companies selling the Britax Cosy Tot and the ISOFIX base. My mother travels to England on a regular basis, and I very well may have her buy us this car seat and an extra ISOFIX base for my car. I'll be contacting Britax to find our which of their US made car seats will fit on the ISOFIX base as well.

Has anyone here ever ordered a car seat from overseas? Has anyone used one of these European ISOFOX type bases that add in the rebound bar and the "foot" that attaches to the floorboard of your vehicle? Any help is of course greatly appreciated, and I will report back what I get from Britax regarding their ISOFIX base. I see that Graco also makes an ISOFOX base as well, and I'll be checking with them to see if their US seats are compatible with that base as well.

Sorry about the long first post, but this is MY first child we're talking about here, and I am not at all thrilled that our government is "compromising" my child's safety to help car seat manufacturers improve their bottom line and make their shareholders happier...

it IS against the law to get that European car seat to use here in the US.

The US law reads:

A person may not manufacture for sale, sell, offer for sale, introduce or deliver for introduction into interstate commerce, or import into the United States, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment....unless the vehicle or equipment complies with the standard...Title 49 Section 30112 of the US Code of Law

Child seats are items of motor vehicle equipment. The fine is up to $1000 per violation. Federal Law does not address USE so consumers can technically use a non-US certified child seat, but when they brought it in (importation) they broke the law. However, US State Laws prohibit the USE of non-US child seats. US Customs has the right to seize non-complying child seats. Visitors/tourists are given special consideration. (A child seat in US law is one designed for children up to 50 pounds.)

Buying a non-US child seat and bringing it in risks US Customs seizure and fines. Bringing a US seat into Canada is also technically illegal in Canada...visitors get special consideration.

Flights originating in the US require child seats to be certified to US regulations and have the statement on the label in red "approved for aircraft." Europeans going back from the US are unhappy to find that their European infant seat can't be used on board for the return trip...it was ok to get here though.

European (ECE...European Economic Community) and US and Canadian and Australian regulations are different. The myth that ECE, Australian, or Canadian requirements are tougher is false. Some aspects of requirements and testing are tougher or easier in each respective country. For example:

- US requires dynamic (crash) testing with a lap belt only for infant and toddler seats...tougher than anywhere else in the world.

Nearly every infant child seat sold in Europe meeting ECE requirements will FAIL the US test because the seat shells are too weak and will fracture. There are very few exceptions. The US test assumes the worst case scenario...lap belt only, the ECE allows the shoulder belt to be looped around the back of the infant seat for support. Europe had lap-shoulder belts in the outboard rear of cars since 1973...the US since 1989...lots of US vehicles in service with all lap belts in the rear.

Without modification nearly every ECE toddler seat (forward-facing) will FAIL the US test because the head will move too far. The ECE allows the shoulder belt to be used with some form of lock off. - - Locking clips do not exist in Europe.

- Chest clips (harness clips) are not legal in the ECE...require only one latch for release...theoretically emergency release is faster.

- The US crash test pulse is different that the ECE crash pulse and Australian. The ECE pulse is easier than US for some products but the reverse is also true..they are just different.

- Canada uses the US pulse but with a non-moving seatback...US seatback moves...can't predict which is tougher because some models react differently in each test.

- ECE requires impact padding around head...US, Canada require none.

- ECE requires puzzle buckles...must put 2 tongue pieces together then latch. US, Canada, Australia don't.

- US has stricter buckle release force tolerances.

- US has tougher belt webbing abrasion testing...keep 80% of new webbing breaking strength after 2500 rubbing cycles over a hex bar...ECE has no abrasion test but a minimum breaking strength.

- Canada has similar tests to the US but toddler seats are tested with a tether (easier)

- Canada requires bi-lingual French-English labeling...ECE requires native language instructions (many have 10 languages) but no required text.

- US has strict recall and remedy requirements....ECE has none....Australia's are easy...Canada is medium.

- US has an out of control product liability climate...ECE has very weak product liability...normally loser pays...Australia is getting worse...Canada will soon be out of control.

- US/Canada have strict flammability testing...California has a special test...UK has a moderate test...Germany and the other ECE countries have none (why? they don't allow their kids to smoke in child seats)

- ECE has no test for aircraft suitability...US has an inversion test...dummy can't fall out when upside down.

- ECE won't allow overhead shield seats or T-shields

- Only the US has a required airbag warning label...Canada is voluntary but must be bi-lingual.

- Australia requires 6 point belts...(left shoulder, right shoulder, left hip, right hip, 2 at crotch)...the crotch strap is 2 separate straps (inverted "V") to avoid male kids from becoming sopranos.

- Japan will officially accept either ECE or US approval but the product must go through certain "political" tests to be accepted.

There's lots more...the point being that there is no country with the "best" requirements. All countries have some tough tests, some weak tests, some seemingly silly outdated tests. Use a US approved seat in the US, a Canadian approved seat in Canada, an ECE approved seat in Europe, an Australian approved seat in Australia, etc.

Thanks for the welcome!

I guess I should clarify the winter-wear, my over-one year old son in his normal shirt and jeans still fit in the seat but when I added a sweatshirt or jacket, it made it more noticable that he was out-growing the seat (still well within height and weight limits).

Does anyone know if there is a video on-line of the test of the companion?

[CPSDarren]

*confetti*

*trumpets!*

Welcome, Monika! I think it is safe to say that your presence and expertise on public forums have been greatly missed since iVillage/PP alienated many users and community leaders!

Hopefully you will share more of your vast CPS knowledge with us;-)

[twokidstwodogs]

Originally Posted by sstackho

I am having a lot of trouble making sense of the recent Consumers Reports article.

Isn't this contradictory? I wish they would give some explanation as to how the LATCH installations are failing.

"Tight fit is important"
"LATCH gives more secure fit"
but "More seats fail with LATCH"

I don't think this is contradictory. I assume that CR means that it's easier to get a tight fit with LATCH, meaning that it's easier to get the seat within the one-inch movement guideline. But that's compatible with LATCH failing more often under stress. (Consider: I might be able to get a carseat to fit more tightly to a vehicle seat using bungee cords, perhaps even tighter than with a belt. But obviously bungee cords would have a high failure rate!)

I don't know what to think about these LATCH failures that CR reports. One hopes that CR at least made their information available to NHTSA, so they can consider it. I tend to err on the side of caution and install with belts when I'm not confident about the LATCH installation, assuming that the fit is as good or better. If you can get a good install with a belt, you might just do that for piece of mind. But if the belt installation is worse than the LATCH one, I'd stick with LATCH.

[Dsunny1]

Monika, great to see you again and thanks for all that info, it was very interesting to see it all written out like that.

[j4m4d8]

Nice post, momika.

In other random thoughts, I'd love to see the Which? ratings for the Cosy Tot. It would be interesting to see what the UK consumer magazine said about it. If it was one of their top rated seats it would hardly be fair to use it as an example of European seats.

If I could give the NHTSA millions of dollars and the power to ignore manufacturers , I'd want them to require that every passenger seat in every vehicle be equipped with a built-in rear-facing seat that would accomodate children up to about 45 inches (26 inch sitting height) and 50 pounds. Then the vehicle would have 4-point seat belts that switch at a push of a button to ALR installed in a seat with adequate head protection and a built-in booster. I sort of envision the seat cushion being thick when in regular use and sliding forward and folding out to be a rear-facing seat, then the back cushion would house the booster part. Front air bags would automatically be disabled when using the rear-facing seat. Car manufacturers could only advertise a car as being 5 passenger if it came with a driver's seat and 4 other fully equipped seats. A position that did not include all 3 possibilities wouldn't count. Car manufacturers could additionally include an infant bucket that somehow installs in the rear-facing part. Of course all seats would be tested in conjunction with the vehicle testing, including side impacts. Oh, and all states would require people to show that they could properly buckle both children and toddlers in their own vehicle before they could renew their driver's license.

Well, it may not be economically feasible now, but in the long run it would do a lot to solve issues related to car seat misuse or non-use. Of course we likely wouldn't have the pretty covers to choose from, but still.

Julie D.

[Wineaux]

Fabulous post Momika! You answered SO many of my questions and concerns. As a soon to be new, and first time, parent I am extremely concerned about our child's safety and only want the best for him or her (We'll know in another 3 weeks or so!). Thanks for all of your help!

[joolsplus3]

You can see the cosy tot results if you google 'oeamtc kindersitze' it translated into 'cosy dead' for ahwile, because it's originally in german (tot=dead)