Question Using seat belt locking mechanism for boosters?

U

Unregistered

Guest
I've seen a couple of reviews about installing booster seats where people mention "locking the seat belt" to improve safety. I don't drive but have bought a booster seat for my child to ride in family cars. Do all cars have this seat belt lock? Does the Toyota Corolla have one? What happens if the car does not have this feature--does the booster become unsafe? Thanks for your help.
 
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ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Locking the seatbelt on a booster is a training tool, to remind kids who are just learning to sit in one to sit still.

Really, if a kid can't behave most of the time without it, she should still be in a harnessed seat.

Not all cars have belts that lock at the retractor (what is being talked about.) The Corolla does (well, after a certain model year; earlier Corollas have lap-only belts that can't be used with a booster anyway, and I think there might be some that have emergency-locking lap/shoulder belts outboard.)

It is not unsafe to use a booster with a belt that does not pre-crash lock (emergency locking retractor only.) It will lock in a crash. The caveats are that the child must be able to sit properly in the booster, and the booster must fit the child properly (properly position the belt.) Otherwise the belt won't be able to properly do its job.

How old is your child? Does he have any behavioral or developmental problems? What does she weigh? This will help us tell you if a booster is really an appropriate choice.

As for fit, the belt needs to be positioned snug and low over the hip bones, touching the thighs in the lap portion, and lie flat across the body in the shoulder portion, squarely across the shoulder (not off the arm or cutting into the neck.)
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Yup. What KQ said. If you want to see something funny, put a child who locks the belt on herself when she rides in a booster in a car with a seatbelt that locks at the retractor. She won't MOVE for fear of being out of position.

We've always locked the belt on Piper. But we don't need to. When we started booster training, though, she was young (4.5, and about six months before I would have chosen myself, but I had knee surgery and needed rides from people I didn't trust to install seats properly) and we locked the belt to help remind her to stay in position. Since then we just always have. But she's ridden in seatbelts that don't lock at the shoulder, or don't lock until a crash, and that's perfectly safe. I just remind her the belt doesn't lock before hand and she needs to sit super still.

Wendy
 

momof3monkeys

New member
really!? i wonder why? i just ordered alr belts for my conversion van for future booster seat and for my other car seat, (the britax decathalon's lock off really puts a nasty indentation in my belt that even safe kids thought was at least interesting seeing as i only had it in for a couple of hours prior to going)
 

sparkyd

Active member
I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself as I've posted about this in two other threads recently, but I was taught in my tech course that you should NOT lock the seat belt when using a booster. A booster seat positions the child so that the seat belt will work the same way it works on an adult. The belt is not meant to be locked at all times on adults either, it is designed to lock when needed. If it is already locked tight when a collision happens, it isn't functioning as intended.

I take the word of this particular instructor very seriously given that she deals with car seats for a living and does real-life accident investigations.

I suspect that the rationale above is also the reason why some car manufacturers specify NOT to lock the belt with a booster. Because that isn't what it is for. :twocents:
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Why, though? Why does it matter to the seatbelt if it locks at the moment of a crash or before, as long as it is locked during?

Wendy
 

Maedze

New member
The belt is not meant to be locked at all times on adults either, it is designed to lock when needed. If it is already locked tight when a collision happens, it isn't functioning as intended.

:

I'd like to see some sort of evidence here. The logic isn't there. Either way, the belt is locked once the vehicle stops moving and the body keeps moving, which is the point.
 

sparkyd

Active member
Well I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on the subject, because I'm definitely not, but this intuitively makes sense to me. If the belt locks in an emergency, there is some give there before it actually locks. If it is already locked, you are being held back ever so slightly earlier which would make the rest of your unrestrained body parts (most importantly your head) fly forward with the same force (or maybe even more force?) but your torso isn't coming as far with it thereby exaggerating the forward motion. There would seem to be a lot of parallels with the debate over harnessing children well beyond the point where they are big enough and mature enough to safely use a booster. In that debate people argue that there is more potential for head/neck injury in a 5 pt harness than in a properly used booster, again because the torso is being restrained while the head flies forward more than it would in a seat belt.

My understanding of the purpose of having ALR/ELR belts is for the ALR to be used to install child restraints without a locking clip, not to lock in passengers. The driver's seat belt in my car (and I'm assuming all cars) is the only one that doesn't lock. If the ALR was meant as an option for the occupants to use, wouldn't it have that feature?

Maedze said she'd like to see evidence that locking the seat belt before a collision means the belt isn't functioning as intended (or rather some evidence that it is detrimental to lock the belt). Given that the purpose of being able to lock the belt is not to lock in passengers, I could turn that around and say that I'd like to see some evidence that it it does not make a difference whether the belt is locked or not, or that it is helpful for it to be locked in advance of a collision.
 

Maedze

New member
The question for debate is NOT is it safer to be in a locked belt versus and unlocked belt so much as it is, is it safer to be in a locked belt versus OUT OF POSITION


This is key. You cannot argue that an unlocked belt is safer than a child leaning over to grab a toy at the key unfortunate moment. And that's what we're talking about here....locking in a newly boostered child for training, or a child who really should be in a harness. And I lock my own belt, when I decide to nap in the passenger seat, to keep me from falling out of position.

Incidentally, the reason that belts went from pure ALR to switchable wasn't because it was unsafe for passengers to ride in locked belts, but because adults complained like crazy and wouldn't wear the belts ;)
 

sparkyd

Active member
The question for debate is NOT is it safer to be in a locked belt versus and unlocked belt so much as it is, is it safer to be in a locked belt versus OUT OF POSITION

This is key. You cannot argue that an unlocked belt is safer than a child leaning over to grab a toy at the key unfortunate moment. And that's what we're talking about here....locking in a newly boostered child for training, or a child who really should be in a harness.

I didn't think there was any debate (at least not here) about whether a child that can't use a booster properly should be in a harness (they should) and I can see how locking the belt in the early booster-using days would be helpful. The OPs question (and the original questions on some other threads recently) have been about whether they should lock the belt because they've been led to believe it is safer for both adults and children in boosters. I'm just saying I've been told by an authority that I trust that you shouldn't. A couple of people asked why that may be, and I gave my theory - and that's all it is. ;)
 

DahliaRW

New member
The question for debate is NOT is it safer to be in a locked belt versus and unlocked belt so much as it is, is it safer to be in a locked belt versus OUT OF POSITION


This is key. You cannot argue that an unlocked belt is safer than a child leaning over to grab a toy at the key unfortunate moment. And that's what we're talking about here....locking in a newly boostered child for training, or a child who really should be in a harness. And I lock my own belt, when I decide to nap in the passenger seat, to keep me from falling out of position.

Incidentally, the reason that belts went from pure ALR to switchable wasn't because it was unsafe for passengers to ride in locked belts, but because adults complained like crazy and wouldn't wear the belts ;)

Yes, but a child in a locked belt in a booster who moves their arms out of the belt to reach said toy wouldn't be safe either. And, then the belt would tighten with them out of it and you'd have to stop the car, unbuckle, rebuckle to get them correctly in. And what if you're on an interstate or soemthign at the time?
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
How exactly would they do that?

Like I said, I lock my belt almost every ride, and I CANNOT get my arms out. Well, I might if I had the ability to dislocate my shoulders at will... It wouldn't happen. They'd have to unbuckle to get out, and most kids just learning to ride in boosters can't reach the buckle anyway!
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
They're much more flexible than we are. Piper and my neighbor could both get both arms out of locked belts. In fact Piper would sit in the back and tell the kid next to her, "You're not supposed to do *this*," and then demonstrate by pulling out her arm and tucking the shoulder belt under it. It takes more wiggling, but not a lot. Piper does that far more often than unlock the belt. She knows better than to do that unless we're stopped. But she can unlock the belt, pull her arms out, and if I asked her to she could probably wiggle completely out without unbuckling. They're smaller and more flexible than we are.

Wendy
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Well, that's true. And I realized after posting that a) little kids don't have as much uh, chestal interference as me (I HOPE!) and b) the booster probably holds it in position a little more to make it easier.

In any case, if a kid is old enough to use a booster, even locked, they are old enough to know NOT to get out of the belt in a moving car. The locking is just a reminder if they happen to forget momentarily; it's not meant to stop them completely.
 
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Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
A locked belt can ratchet in some more and tighten up more around a wiggly boostered child, potentially leading to discomfort or possibly posing a strangulation hazard depending on how the child moved around in the booster. Such a wiggly child would be a better candidate for a 5-point, but speaking hypothetically here, perhaps the potential for ratcheting tighter is behind the warning a previous poster noticed in the '09 Sienna manual. :twocents:
 

Maedze

New member
There are ALWAYS what-ifs. This is a TOOL, not a guarantee of safety. It prevents a child from leaning over willy-nilly. I've driven in lots of cars and I've never had a child get pinned to the point of discomfort by a locked belt.

Until I see flat out evidence that it's unsafe, I will continue to recommend it to parents as a TOOL when they are first booster-training, or if they must ride with a boostered child who should otherwise be harnessed. I will also continue to lock the belt on myself when I doze off because if I don't, I'll slump out of position.


There are no guarantees, no absolutely rights here. This is about common sense and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
And by that same token, just because you or I haven't personally witnessed something negative about using the booster with a locked belt, this doesn't necessarily mean there's isn't a negative potential in doing so behind a warning in a vehicle's manual. There's probably some lawyering up involved in the prohibition against it in certain vehicle manuals, perhaps based on a real life happening, and it would come down to a parental decision as to whether or not to follow the vehicle manual. We can inform parents of the options and potential issues and we must ultimately leave the decision up to the parent/caregiver to make the choice for transporting their child(ren).
 

Maedze

New member
We advise people to go against the manual all the time. Think about rear facing and forward facing 'height limits'. I guess this is really not something I am willing to lose sleep over. :twocents:
 

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