I'm confused: CDN laws for FF

MarathonMama · Mar 8, 2009

I've heard so many conflicting thoughts on what the law is with regards to the minimum FF requirements. There are so many people more concerned with meeting the minimums for their own convenience rather than thinking about what is SAFEST that all their focus is on meeting the lowest legal requirements and thinking no further. Which governing force is right (manufacturers, NHSTA, Transport Canada, etc)? Each province can add on to the minimums, right?

What are the minimum requirements by law to FF (for Federal and/or provincial)?

crstcrzy · Mar 8, 2009

provincial law varries, obviously, from place to place, but the basics of it are 20-22 lbs (i know nova scotia is 22, but ontairo is 20) and one year old (no age in ont.).
these are MINIMUMS only. Any tech you find will always tell you the longer, the better. If you have a combination seat that allows rear facing to 30 or 35 lbs, use it to the maximum height or weight (which ever comes first).
Many people are overly eager to move their child forward facing (regretably, my sister is one of them in regards to my DN) for many reasons. DSis's reasons were "He'll enjoy the ride more, because he can see more" and "the car is a 2 door, and its so hard to get him in when he's rear facing!" so at 1 year and 22 lbs, he was forward facing

The way I have grown to look at it is, you can enforce the law, which is disgustingly unhelpful in this case (In NS, if you're caught with your child FF before 1 yr and 22 lbs, you get a fine of $165, and 2 demerit points on your lisc.). You can educate people to the safer methods, but they will either take it or leave it. unfortionately, 97% (and please correct this if i am wrong ladies/gents) of CRs in NS are improperly used, installed, or adjusted.

A sad world indeed when we put our own wants above the needs of our children

MarathonMama · Mar 8, 2009

So if you're in Ontario you can legally FF a child that is 20lbs or more even if they're aren't 1 year old because there is no "legal" age requirement stated?!?

I know TC says to follow manufacturer's instructions, but do all convertible car seats state a child must be both 1 yr AND 22lbs (or 20lbs) to be FF?

Barbara Baines · Mar 8, 2009

The majority of manufacturers state one year on the labels. The law in Ontario is 20 pounds, and comply to the applicable CMVSS. CMVSS states to follow the manufacturers instructions and therefore the child must be one year of age and the minimum wieght that the manfuacturers recommend (can't go into the Frontier until 2 or 2.5 years - I forget which - and 25 pounds). The police (municipal and OPP) are not trained (there are a couple) so therefore, this is not enforced. TC and a number of CRS coalitions have been trying to get the police trained, but many of the forces and many of the OPP detachments refuse. If you do get caught by a trained officer it's $110.00 and 2 demerits. I know in Gatineau QC (across the river from Ottawa) the police tell people to turn forward facing any where between 15 and 18 pounds cause the child looks big enough!!!!!

MarathonMama · Mar 8, 2009

Thank you! So in lamens terms then, does that mean that the manufacturer's recommendations for the seat more or less trump everything else? How do the manufacturers come up with their recommendations? It all just seems like a giant circle to me ... NO WONDER people are confused!!!

canmom · Mar 8, 2009

Allport said:
I know in Gatineau QC (across the river from Ottawa) the police tell people to turn forward facing any where between 15 and 18 pounds cause the child looks big enough!!!!!

Thats extremely scary... you guys have your work cut out there for sure!!

MarathonMama said:
Thank you! So in lamens terms then, does that mean that the manufacturer's recommendations for the seat more or less trump everything else? How do the manufacturers come up with their recommendations? It all just seems like a giant circle to me ... NO WONDER people are confused!!!

Basically, yes.... due to proper use you must follow the manufacturers instructions. I'm not sure how they arrive at a weight min to be honest (Allport will know) I'm just guessing because 20-22 is the legal min pretty much everywhere... I suspect they are following along with that??

snowbird25ca · Mar 8, 2009

canmom said:
Basically, yes.... due to proper use you must follow the manufacturers instructions. I'm not sure how they arrive at a weight min to be honest (Allport will know) I'm just guessing because 20-22 is the legal min pretty much everywhere... I suspect they are following along with that??

Allport will correct me if I'm wrong on this explanation, but I'm going to give it a go. :thumbsup:

The 20lb min weight limit to ff comes from the definition of seats under CMVSS 213.

CMVSS 213 is child restraint systems. Section 213 applies for the weight ranges of 20 to 65lbs. Restraint systems labeled to CMVSS 213 can be either rear facing or forward facing.
CMVSS 213.1 is infant restraint systems. Sections 213.1 is rear facing restraints only and encompasses birth to 20lbs.
CMVSS 213.2 is booster restraint systems. 40+lbs and up is the range allowed for CMVSS 213.2 which is why no booster in Canada can be certified to a minimum weight under 40lbs.

So translating this into a little more English beyond the technical, ff'ing seats fall under CMVSS 213. The minimum starting weight for CMVSS 213 is 20lbs, so therefore a manufacturer can't make the minimum weight limit less than that on a ff'ing restraint.

I'm not sure why some go 20lbs (9kg) and some go 22lbs (10kg) unless it's just for ease of saying 10kg vs. 9. Or maybe it's a manufacturer's way of keeping a kid rf'ing 2lbs more. Maybe Allport will have an answer for that one.

Barbara Baines · Mar 9, 2009

OK - Trudy - 10 points! Well done. The 20 pounds comes from a very early rendition of CMVSS. The definition of an infant was (and sort of still is) an individual under 20 pounds and unable to sit up unassited. There is a policy letter on file to state that CMVSS 213.1 can be 0-22 pounds. Because it is only a policy letter, the manufacturers can do the 20 or 22 mark. Under the new regulations (that are being put together right now) the definition will change to 22 pounds and walking unassisted (or similar words) which would make all the manufacturers change to 22 pounds for forward facing.

MarathonMama · Mar 9, 2009

Thanks! You ladies ROCK!! I'm always amazed by how much any one person can know about car seats :thumbsup: That makes total sense to me.

mommycat · Mar 10, 2009

Allport said:
Under the new regulations (that are being put together right now) the definition will change to 22 pounds and walking unassisted (or similar words) which would make all the manufacturers change to 22 pounds for forward facing.

Ooh, this is totally exciting - the part about walking unassisted. :thumbsup:

canmom · Mar 10, 2009

Just curious Allport... will that mean the manufacturers will have to put walking unassisted or something similar? Some kids don't walk until 15 months or more... that would force (in a good way) parent to keep kids rfing longer :thumbsup:.

snowbird25ca · Mar 10, 2009

canmom said:
Just curious Allport... will that mean the manufacturers will have to put walking unassisted or something similar? Some kids don't walk until 15 months or more... that would force (in a good way) parent to keep kids rfing longer :thumbsup:.

I can answer this.

Manufacturers will be required to add that to the manuals as a requirement since it will be part of the standards.

This walking unassisted has been in the Canadian curriculum for awhile, but we haven't been able to tell parents it as anything more than a guideline/recommendation because no manufacturer required it and it could only be enforced by a province as a proper use thing... meaning we could tell parents, but there was no "law" to back it up and most parents really don't consider something to be a requirement unless there's a law to back it up... Kind of the way that many provinces 1yr is only enforceable through proper use which means that the person giving the ticket needs to know the exact requirement of the manufacturer at the time the seat was made - Britax seats didn't have a min 1yr old to ff for quite awhile for example, so in a province like AB it would be legal to ff a 20lb 5 month old in a MA made back in 2004. As we know though, legal doesn't equal safe.

It think it will delay some kids going ff'ing provided parents take the time to read the manual and follow it. How much will really vary though because average walking age for girls is 13 months with the average for boys being younger than that. But for all the kids who are on the longer side of average, they'll rf longer. :thumbsup:

I'm looking forward to those 2 extra lbs. Right now, many parents who have a kid bordering on 20lbs and just turning 1 will buy a seat with a 20lb min to forward face so that they can turn right on the first birthday rather than having to wait another 2lbs if they bought another seat. It makes me cringe every time... 2lbs for kids on the light side could mean another 4 to 6months.

dd9736 · Mar 10, 2009

snowbird25ca said:
I can answer this. Manufacturers will be required to add that to the manuals as a requirement since it will be part of the standards.

This walking unassisted has been in the Canadian curriculum for awhile, but we haven't been able to tell parents it as anything more than a guideline/recommendation because no manufacturer required it and it could only be enforced by a province as a proper use thing... meaning we could tell parents, but there was no "law" to back it up and most parents really don't consider something to be a requirement unless there's a law to back it up... Kind of the way that many provinces 1yr is only enforceable through proper use which means that the person giving the ticket needs to know the exact requirement of the manufacturer at the time the seat was made - Britax seats didn't have a min 1yr old to ff for quite awhile for example, so in a province like AB it would be legal to ff a 20lb 5 month old in a MA made back in 2004. As we know though, legal doesn't equal safe.

It think it will delay some kids going ff'ing provided parents take the time to read the manual and follow it. How much will really vary though because average walking age for girls is 13 months with the average for boys being younger than that. But for all the kids who are on the longer side of average, they'll rf longer. :thumbsup:

I'm looking forward to those 2 extra lbs. Right now, many parents who have a kid bordering on 20lbs and just turning 1 will buy a seat with a 20lb min to forward face so that they can turn right on the first birthday rather than having to wait another 2lbs if they bought another seat. It makes me cringe every time... 2lbs for kids on the light side could mean another 4 to 6months.

ooh, I like the walking unassisted, though for my boys it wouldn't matter, my 18month old is 20lbs, and has been for awhile. the upcoming 22lb minimum would keep DH from bugging me at this rate for Ffing till well after 2.

I'm confused: CDN laws for FF

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