What's the safest choice in this case?

I posted this in car chat, and people have been helpful, but most of them suggested putting the oldest harnessed child in the front and the booster child in the back... but since I'm in Canada, and it has to be tethered, that's impossible. So, I'm going to crosspost here, to see what people in Canada would do in this situation... Thanks!

I have a 99 Explorer with 2 Radians. I have 2 kids. A 3 year old, 36", 29lbs, rearfacing behind the passenger seat (at about a 30 degree angle). An 8 month old, 12lbs, rearfacing in the center at a 45 degree angle.

I will be babysitting my niece and nephew 3 days a week for the summer (actually starting this month) and will need to be driving them from place to place. My nephew is 4 1/2, 40+ lbs, and we're getting an Evenflo Chase seat which harnesses to 47lbs front facing, and this will go behind the driver seat.

The problem comes in with my niece... she's 7 years old, also just over 40lbs (she's a stringbean like her mom). She will be using a backless booster, and will obviously have to sit in the front (unfortunately), since there are no other seats. The problem is, I have driver and passenger airbags, with no on/off switch. The recommended solution for a child having to ride in the front, is to have the seat all the way back. But with my 3 year old rearfacing behind her, (even at only 30 degrees), the seat doesn't go all the way back. Probably only about halfway

The only solution I can think of is to turn my 3 year old forward facing so that I can put the passenger seat all the way back. Is this the safest solution, or is there something I haven't thought of?

I know it seems like such a tiny deal since his seat "technically" only goes to 30lbs rearfacing anyways, (in Canada), but I (like other Canadians I've seen on here), planned on using it rearfacing to the "off-label" 33lbs that it's safe to in the States. Which, for him, would be quite awhile still, as he's small, skinny and on a slow growth curve. I thought of just doing it for the summer and then just putting him back, but, he's already been asking to turn around, since he's turned around in his Cosco AlphaOmega in Daddy's truck. (That one only goes to 30lbs RF, and last month he was a hair over 30, so we turned that seat). I'm afraid if he's FF in both vehicles for the whole summer, there's no way he'll want to turn back around. But, all I can do, (aside from buying a minivan, lol), is choose the lesser of two evils. And, it seems to me that having my in airbag range is FAR more dangerous than switching my 3 year old to FF status, right???

Does your 3-year-olds seat work rear-facing behind the driver seat? You could also take your car in to see if you could get a tether anchor installed. If neither of those work, I guess you will have to turn your 3-year-olds seat around.

Oh yeah, and even if the harnessed child was in the front seat, you would still need to move the seat all the way back because of the airbag. But I would rather keep the oldest child in the front.

I thought I remembered reading that there is a tether location for the front seat....found this thread http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=27248 which talks about it, you may want to check your manual....according to the thread there is, and dealership should be able to install the anchor for you.

I would not 'rather' keep the oldest boostered child in the front seat....the reason the harnessed child is meant to go in the front is because they will have FAR less forward excursion than a child restrained by the seatbelt alone. That is why many vehicle manuals permit a harnessed child to be in the front seat (all the way back) even with the airbag there.

I wouldn't feel guilty about turning your 3yo. You have rf'd to the limits of the seat, and yes, it would be great to be able to get the extra few pounds, but at this point, it is not such a safety issue as it would be if it was an infant.

I guess it comes down to this...doing what is safest for your children (continuing to rf the 3 yo) puts your neice or nephew at greater risk, so it is a matter of weighing the risks for all. I'm not certain, but I tend to agree with your thinking, that having any child in the front seat near the airbag is far greater risk than turning a 3 year old child (who has rf'd to the stated limits of his seat) forward.

According to the LATCH manual...

If you have the 2 door Explorer, you can *not* have a tether anchor added to the front seat.

If you have the 4 door Explorer, you can only use the front center seating position and you must use the 2nd row lap belt to tether for the front seat... not possible in your situation because you need a child restraint in that 2nd row position.

So, either way, it's not possible to have a tether anchor for the front seat position.

Since it's not possible, I would do the following...

FFing Radian, RFing Radian, FFing Chase
7yo backless booster, driver

If you have the 2 dr, you only have tether anchors in the outboard positions and the baby must be in the center because the other two FFing seats need the tether anchors.

The 7yo goes in the front with the seat pushed all the way back. It is more important to have the seat all the way back for the 7 yo, than to have the 3 yo still RFing.

The 3 yo should be fine FFing (it's more about age than it is about weight for skeletal development) and I'm not totally comfortable with a 3 yo exceeding the 30lbs limit in Canada... there just isn't a huge need for it because their skeletal development is so much greater than a 1 or 2 year old.

The 7 yo should also be old/mature enough to sit correctly at all times in the front seat as well. Just try and limit your driving with all of them as much as possible.

IF you don't already have your tether anchors installed, let me know if you have the 2dr or 4 dr model and I will give you the part numbers for them.

Does your 3-year-olds seat work rear-facing behind the driver seat?

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I might be able to drive with it there, but DH wouldn't and he drives it a fair bit too.

Oh yeah, and even if the harnessed child was in the front seat, you would still need to move the seat all the way back because of the airbag. But I would rather keep the oldest child in the front.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking... when someone suggested that, I wondered what I was missing, as they'd be just as close to the airbag still.

I guess it comes down to this...doing what is safest for your children (continuing to rf the 3 yo) puts your neice or nephew at greater risk, so it is a matter of weighing the risks for all. I'm not certain, but I tend to agree with your thinking, that having any child in the front seat near the airbag is far greater risk than turning a 3 year old child (who has rf'd to the stated limits of his seat) forward.

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That's exactly what I was thinking too... I guess I was just hoping there might have been something I hadn't thought of, but at least now I can do it this way, knowing that it's the safest possible way for everyone.

I would do the following...

FFing Radian, RFing Radian, FFing Chase
7yo backless booster, driver

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That's exactly how I was going to do it, unless someone here had a solution I hadn't thought of... Thanks for confirming that it's the best possible way

As for the car, I have a 4 door. And I do have the tether anchors installed. I did that right aways both with this vehicle, and the 94 Explorer that I just replaced, so I'd be able to put any FF kids in it, when necessary.

Thanks so much everyone for all your help! Even though I'm ending up with the same solution I thought I'd have to do, I feel much better about it now, and I can stop worrying

Just one last question... as for the 7 year old in the front (all the way back of course ), is she okay in a backless booster, or would there be a significant increase in safety with a high back booster? The seat she's in has a headrest, although I don't think she's tall enough yet to reach it anyways. Is there any other advantage to an HBB, and if so, what? I convinced my sister to buy the Chase, because I'm not comfotable having the 4 year old in just his HBB that he uses in her car, but even though I'd like both of them to go up a notch in safety, I don't think she can afford to buy 2 new CRs, unless there's a really good reason/need... (My family all thinks I'm a little wacky about carseats, as they all step "up" to the next level as soon as possible, sometimes even before the guidelines ).

I'd prefer her in a backless booster *if she's in the front* (just want to make that clear for lurkers ). She will be that much further from the airbag. A high back booster will place her closer to the airbag and I think the airbag danger outweighs the SIP danger, so I'd choose backless for the front seat.

Thanks! Once again, that's exactly what I was thinking myself... that the thickness of the HBB back would be putting her closer to the airbag. I haven't done nearly as much in depth research into booster safety yet, as I know it'll be a LONG time before either of my kids outgrow the harness stage, but it's nice to know my instincts are usually right anyways

I think the airbag danger outweighs the SIP danger, so I'd choose backless for the front seat.

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I forgot to ask, what's SIP?

Side Impact Protection... which is what high back boosters offer for kids. Most boosters these days have sides and headwings that 'wrap' around the child helping to keep them contained within the booster during a collision.

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but check your provincial regulations. In Ontario you CANNOT put a booster in front of an active airbag - you must get it deactivated if possible........

The law in BC is currently a joke, but as of July 2008, there are new, better laws in place. According to the strengthened laws, it's illegal to have a rearfacing seat in front of an activated airbag, but no laws for other seats/children.

Despite that I'll be within the law, I still looked into having the airbag deactivated for the summer, because I know that just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's safe. Transport Canada has a form to fill out and send in for a legal request of deactivation, if you meet certain qualifications. Our situation does qualify, so I was going to send that in, but first I got my mechanic brother-in-law to find out if/how he could do it. Unfortunately, they have to buy a kit, and to have it simply immobilized (the cheapest option) costs at LEAST $300-$400, and the preferable on/off switch, (so I could turn it off only when necessary) is even more. I was hoping once I had the legal stamped form allowing deactivation, I could just get him to unplug it, or whatever, for free (or cheap), but that messes up your whole system, including the driver's airbag.

Another reason for a harnessed child in front is that they're less likely to lean out of position towards the airbag.

For peace of mind, if your front passenger seatbelt has a switchable retractor, I'd switch it for her (like you would a carseat).

For peace of mind, if your front passenger seatbelt has a switchable retractor, I'd switch it for her (like you would a carseat).

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Thanks!!! I had no idea that it might be possible to lock the front belt, but I just checked my manual and ours does have that option I'm so glad, as that will help keep her properly positioned, but she can still be as far back as possible with the backless booster. Thanks again for letting me know about that That makes me feel a bit better about the whole thing...

I personally would not put a booster in the front seat. I would likely choose to put a Radian up front installed as tight as possible with a locking clip. The Radian, with its steel frame has shown to test really well in reduced head excursion without tether. So, you may be without tether (law issue I know), but I think having a full harnessed seat in the front if it is absolutely necessary is a better choice than the booster seat. If the harnessed seat is in really tight with the seat pushed all the way back, that child should have the 10" clearance they need should the airbag come out. A booster will go further forward than that and a child's body moves very differently in a booster than in a harness.

Does the other family have a van by chance. If so, could you switch vehicles on the days you have the kids?

Mara

Mara1973 said:

So, you may be without tether (law issue I know), but I think having a full harnessed seat in the front if it is absolutely necessary is a better choice than the booster seat.

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Using a top tether is not *just* a law issue, it's a safety issue as well in Canada. We have absolutely NO idea how that seat will perform without a top tether. Just because it's US counterpart does not need a top tether, does NOT mean we can assume it's the same seat (even if we've been told over and over it is the same seat). We DO know that a top tether reduces head excursion and is required by law here to meet that limited head excursion number.

A 7yo is perfectly capable of sitting correctly in a booster... especially with an adult directly beside her and the switchable seatbelt locked (when equipped on the vehicle). While we never want to see a booster in the front seat (it is last resort only), *in this case*, it is the safer option.

It's a tricky job knowing the difference between Canadian and US seats and recommending the appropriate method of installation depending on the country, but we can't just interchange rules because we like one better than the other. Rules are there for a reason. :twocents:

My sister has an SUV also, so that wouldn't work. Also, it's a bit of a struggle to get a proper install RF with our Radians, so I don't want to be taking them out. (I'm pretty sure FF will be much easier though )

As far as putting a Radian in the front, aside from being uncomfortable not having a tether option there, it would also mean putting my 3 year old in the front! NO WAY! I'm stressing enough about putting a 7 year old there... I can't imagine putting Wyatt there!

And yeah, I'm REALLY uncomfortable with the no-tether idea... a FF seat, properly installed, but without a tether, feels so much less secure to me. Even if I was in the States, I'd want to use a tether all the time. That's actually one of the things that makes me nervous about graduating to booster seats (in a LONG time for my kids), and why I want my nephew in a harness seat, rather than the HBB he uses in my sister's and my mom's cars. I hate how they're just free-floating... I know they're safe, when they're the right age/size, but they still make me nervous. If it wouldn't put her closer to the airbag, and if I could tether in the front seat, I'd definitely be pushing for the 7 year old to be in a harness as well (assuming she's within the height/weight limits of course).