Question RAV4 overlapping seat belts

Unregistered · Jan 30, 2014

We have a 2010 RAV4 Sport, no third row seat.
We would like to fit 3 across (ages 4 FF, 2, and 0).

But there seems to be controversy online here over whether or not the overlapping seat belts is acceptable.
This one from 2012 seemed to say it was possible with some puzzling.
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=213339&highlight=rav4
Others, like this one from 2010 concluded the overlapping made it unsafe:
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=126569

The car manual states that it is a 5 seater, therefore all 3 can be used simultaneously. So it isn't explicitly prohibited. My friend (who unfortunately lives far away) says that her LATCH manual does not prohibit it with our Model, either. Ours has cloth seats, if that matters. Backseat looks a little different, being a Sport, like this: http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos...sporti44x2_2008_interior_rearseat_640x480.jpg

We have a Chicco Keyfit 30, a Diono Radian RXT, and I was about to replace a Recaro Prosport Roundabout with another Diono Radian Radian RXT to fit across better when I was stalled by reading that it might be unsafe for 3 across at all.

I plan to bring it in to get it checked by a Tech anyhow, but I was wondering if there was a new thinking about the overlapping belts?

wendytthomas · Jan 31, 2014

The Manufacturer's Alliance for Child Passenger Safety says:

Installing 3 Car Seats Across the Back Seat
The MACPS recommends the following conditions be met when installing 3 car seats across the back seat:
a. A tight installation, as described in the instructions and CPS standardized curriculum, can be achieved.
b. The positions of the CRs on the vehicle seat are not changed by the contact. That is, they still align properly with respect to the seat belt or
LATCH anchors that secure them.
c. There is no contact or force that would bend or deform any of the CRs.
d. The LATCH lower connectors or seat belts do not cross over one another to achieve the installation.
(August 2012)

So no, you cannot put three across your backseat. Sorry.

Wendy

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

Thank you for a clear response.

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

wendytthomas, I have a couple more questions... mostly to clarify for my husband who really really really wants this to work.

In addition to the Owner's Manual not prohibiting the use of both seats, my car seat technician friend said that the make and model it is not listed in the LATCH manual as one where you can't use the center if installing a seat on the driver side outboard seat (like it does for their 4Runner and other models). So where are these 2012 MACPS recommendations published? Is it in a revision of the LATCH guide? Or somewhere else?

Regarding the key recommendation:
"d. The LATCH lower connectors or seat belts do not cross over one another to achieve the installation."
What if LATCH is used in the outboard and the seatbelt used in the center? The LATCH and the seatbelt will cross, but not seatbelt and seatbelt or LATCH and LATCH.

Is it a case where Toyota started to comply after the recommendations came out (I think I read on another thread that the more recent RAVs are listed a 4 passenger as opposed to 5...) but don't need to retroactively declare the same for the older ones? If so, how is that not a recall on the car?

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

AGH! RARGH!
I finally got through to Toyota. Somehow, magically, it a 5 passenger vehicle (they insist on that...) and yet only 2 carseats can be installed.
Way to go, Toyota.

wendytthomas · Jan 31, 2014

Unregistered said:
AGH! RARGH!
I finally got through to Toyota. Somehow, magically, it a 5 passenger vehicle (they insist on that...) and yet only 2 carseats can be installed.
Way to go, Toyota.

Yup.

More accurately the MACPS statement overrules and the LATCH manual needs updating.

Because even if Toyota allowed it, the MACPS doesn't (and that's made up of representatives from nearly all carseat manufacturers. They get together and talk and *try* to make this as standard and easy as possible).

Wendy

bubbaray · Jan 31, 2014

I own a 2010 RAV4 Limited. Everything Wendy said is correct. And in the new RAV4s, the vehicle manual clearly states you cannot install restraints using the overlapping belts

Keeyamah · Jan 31, 2014

bubbaray said:
I own a 2010 RAV4 Limited. Everything Wendy said is correct. And in the new RAV4s, the vehicle manual clearly states you cannot install restraints using the overlapping belts

Can you even use all three rear belts at the same time, ie for 3 adults? Just doesn't seem safe to me........

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

The lady from Toyota said that is still considered a 5 passenger vehicle, so yes, three adults can sit across the back. But it is their recommendation to only install 2 Child Restraint Systems.

wendytthomas · Jan 31, 2014

Unregistered said:
The lady from Toyota said that is still considered a 5 passenger vehicle, so yes, three adults can sit across the back. But it is their recommendation to only install 2 Child Restraint Systems.

And three adults wouldn't really go for it because the person behind the driver's side would have a wedgie beyond belief.

Wendy

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

OK, so I know that this is splitting hairs, but my car seat tech still seemed to feel that the MACPS statement was unclear:

"d. The LATCH lower connectors or seat belts do not cross over one another to achieve the installation."

What if LATCH is used in the outboard and the seatbelt used in the center? The LATCH and the seatbelt will cross, but not seatbelt and seatbelt or LATCH and LATCH.

She talked to a Toyota agent and the agent said do not use 2 seatbelts, NOT do not use use LATCH, seatbelt, LATCH.

I am still uncomfortable with the cross-over, but it does seem like there is room for clarification. She said that she would ask her instructor, but I thought I would ask here, too.

The newer RAVs are still classified as 5 person. Does the newer RAV manual clarify the use of only 2 carseats? Or just not belt over belt installation?

wendytthomas · Jan 31, 2014

You cannot overlap LATCH or the seatbelt. Neither. So if they are overlapping at all it's not allowed. You want both to work properly in a crash, not twist with each other.

Wendy

Unregistered · Jan 31, 2014

Thanks. I'm sad that its not going to work, but thanks for the clarification.

And I have sat behind the driver's seat with 3 adults across. My friend in the middle was buckled. Didn't feel wedgied too bad, but I imagine in an accident that it would've played out rather poorly for my butt.

bubbaray · Jan 31, 2014

You won't fit three across if you use LATCH for even one. There isn't room.

Unregistered · Feb 1, 2014

My husband still wanted me to take the car to our local fire station to get it checked, so I did. The firemen didn't know much about the car, the carseats, or the overlapping seat belts, but they did try to install the seats (all super narrow ones) and they didn't fit safely.

So now he willingly started looking at minivans with me.

Any advice on the best minivans?

jaemom · Feb 1, 2014

Unregistered said:
My husband still wanted me to take the car to our local fire station to get it checked, so I did. The firemen didn't know much about the car, the carseats, or the overlapping seat belts, but they did try to install the seats (all super narrow ones) and they didn't fit safely.

So now he willingly started looking at minivans with me.

Any advice on the best minivans?

I can only say that the dodge caravan and its clones, are not very car seat friendly. There are only 3 tethers for forward facing seats. And the 3rd row seat belts are a nightmare for booster riders. Mine is a 2012. I.hate.it. I have 3 booster age kiddos.

Keeanh · Feb 2, 2014

Unregistered said:
My husband still wanted me to take the car to our local fire station to get it checked, so I did. The firemen didn't know much about the car, the carseats, or the overlapping seat belts, but they did try to install the seats (all super narrow ones) and they didn't fit safely.

So now he willingly started looking at minivans with me.

Any advice on the best minivans?

You should start a new thread in the vehicles section, too. You'll get more advice if you have "minivan advice" or something like that in the title.

What's your budget? Used or new?

wendytthomas · Feb 5, 2014

I've been in contact with a MACPS representative who read the thread. The MACPS statement does NOT override what the car manual says. So if your manual says you can seat five, then you can seat five. If you have a newer Rav that says no, then the answer is no, you have five spaces for four people.

Just make sure with any three across situation that you make sure all seats are independently installed. If that doesn't work it doesn't matter what anyone says.

Wendy

ketchupqueen · Feb 5, 2014

In the case of the RAV, there really is no way to independently tightly install seats (permanently.) I am ok with the BubbleBum or Ride Safer Travel Vest in the center and a non-permanently-installed seat that doesn't overlap any part of the belt outboard (another BubbleBum, a Ride Safer Travel Vest, possibly a narrow infant seat temporarily installed without the base... you'd have to re-do it each time because to make it work you have to buckle the center child first. That's as far as I'm willing to go in saying there's a safe way to seat three kids across that back seat, and I wouldn't do it in the newer ones that don't allow it.

bubbaray · Feb 5, 2014

Note that the pre-2013 RAV4 manuals do not state that 3 restraints can be installed in the second row. The pictograms show an outboard install and center install, but only one at a time. Because the manual is silent, IMO, MCAPS is still relevant.

Question RAV4 overlapping seat belts

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