Bringing Recaro into Canada

[neils]

This just blows my mind, how our Canadian Gov't can make a simple thing so complicated. Read what I wrote to the Minister of Transportation and a few of their offices. This is my story of trying to get the message to our Canadian Gov't to bring Recaro to Canada....

Message:

To whom it may concern,

I am hoping that you will be able to forward this message to the right person. I can assure you that I am representing quite a few Canadian parents out there that would like an answer to this question. Most of these Canadian parents are members of a very popular child car seat forum on the internet called http://www.car-seat.org/

Here is the issue. One of the most popular, safest car seats on the market today is made by a company called Recaro. Some of you might know that compant name, because some of your cars have seats made by this company. They also make racing seats, as well as child safety seats. They have some of the highest standards in the world for safety.

Their seats are available in the US and in Europe, for some odd reason, not available in Canada. So I did some investigation, and spoke with some of the folks over at Recaro.

It turns out that the cost that this company has to incur to have their child safety seats tested in Canada are so astronomical, that it's not even worth it for them to make the seats available here. Further more, the testing standards in Canada are so complex, that the time it takes for these seats to be tested and approved are so long, that by the time that takes place, the car seat is already outdated by a replacement model. According to Recaro, even with these most difficult challenges, they have still tried to approach our government to make an effort to have their child car safety seats tested and approved for the Canadian market.

I strongly believe that the challenges and delays has more to do with politics and red tape than the actual testing issues. This is where you guys come in. Why all the trouble for child car seats made by Recaro, and why is the Canadian Government giving them a hard time, both financially as well as timing, to get the seats approved for Canada?

Here is the icing on the cake. I am one of those Canadians that uses logic. If the child seat attaches into the car's LATCH system, works with the 5 point harness, and is crach test approved within the US, then that's good enough for me. This is a common feeling among those wanting to buy these Recaro seats.

So I contacted Recaro to find some US dealers, and planned to pick one up in the US, and "smuggle" it into Canada. I couldn't believe what they told me. My purchase would put their company at risk, as the Canadian Government would pursue them with a $100,000 fine per seat sold to a Canadian. You have got to be kidding me. So now they are terrified at the idea of a Canadian walking into one of their retailers and walking out with one of their child safety seats. This is a real joke now. They have warned all of their US retailers NOT to deal with, or ship any of their child car seats to a Canadian. I would imagine that there might even be a spot check at the border for Recaro child seats.

I assure you, no company, not Safety 1st, not Eddie Bauer, or any other child car seat sold in Canada can even come close to the safety, and quality found in these seats. Not one of them.

What I would like to see happen is the following. For you to bring my concern, which also happens to be the concern from many of the Canadian parents on the child car seat forum mentioned above. Take this concern, and invite Recaro to the table. Allow them to show you their child safety seats. And try to accomodate them, try to get past some of the problems that is scaring this company from dealing with our country in the future. They want to sell their seats here, but our government is making that next to impossible to achieve.

I am hoping to get some follow up feedback along the way if this does take place. I am doing this for all future parents to give them a chance to have access to one of the greatest car seat companies in the world. I for one will still find a way to get that seat into my car no matter what.

Perhaps we can speak about this over the phone if necessary, so that I can give you some more details. In the meantime, I will be copying this message into the car seat forum mentioned above, so that other Canadians like me can see that at least one of us is trying to reach someone in the Canadian governemt that might be able to listen and do something about this most embarassing problem. Situations like these do NOT make me proud to be a Canadian, as we come across as some politically charged country, which is not the case. Anyone wiling to sell a product in Canada should be able to so in a short turnaround time, after appropriate Canadian testing is performed and approved.

Please, make some of our lives easier, and let the Canadian parents have a choice in terms of what seat they want their child's lives protected in. For quite a few of us, there is only 1, Recaro !!!

Thank you for your time,

Neil Sakaitis

[Loves2sing]

I am really curious as to what their responce, if you get one at all, will be. Keep us posted. Good letter!

[hipmaman]

I'll be the devil advocate ;-) I work for an engineering company in an industry that must follow very stringent safety standards/regulations and can understand the carseat manufactures' reluctance and I also can understand the regulations put in place.

It might not necessary means it costs more to test products in Canada, but it might mean the cost to test might be similar to those done in the US and Europe, but given the smaller market in Canada, the return-on-investment is lower for Canada than other markets. Business decision.

And of course, if I were Recaro I would also be worry about liability of having my products used illegally. So due dilligence would dictate that I ensure my retailers are not to sell my products for use in Canada, a jurisdiction that my products have not illegally or technically conformed/certified for use. And since I'm a carseat manufacture, my legal department (might be as big as my engineering department) would do its job to inform me of all legal risks in this regard.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more/better seats, higher limits, better safety, etc. but I'm just saying that things are not always one sided as it seems. And I'm not defending the government or anything like that either, but imagine if regulations are more lax (than they are now), there would be unhappy parents as well (and most likely be us same parents, lol)

[snowbird25ca]

It will be interesting to see the response you get from TC. I emailed them recently too and included mention of Recaro in it. I haven't heard back yet, but it's only been 2 business days...

Interesting about Recaro working to make sure Canadians don't bring the seat into Canada though? They can't be held responsible for if *we* (as in the collective Canadian we,) decide to "illegally" use a seat...

What does bug me about the whole thing, is that Recaro designed this seat for the North Amercia market... why is getting it Canadian certified so expensive if they've already done the design tests?

[JaRylan]

Originally Posted by snowbird25ca

It will be interesting to see the response you get from TC. I emailed them recently too and included mention of Recaro in it. I haven't heard back yet, but it's only been 2 business days...

Interesting about Recaro working to make sure Canadians don't bring the seat into Canada though? They can't be held responsible for if *we* (as in the collective Canadian we,) decide to "illegally" use a seat...

What does bug me about the whole thing, is that Recaro designed this seat for the North Amercia market... why is getting it Canadian certified so expensive if they've already done the design tests?

When I asked someone at Recaro if the seat would be coming to Canada (this was months ago) they said it wouldn't because they need a million dollars worth of market share to make it viable. So the same thing that hipmaman said. This would be the same reason (I would imagine) that Britax only sells the Marathon in Canada - market share is too small.

[hipmaman]

Originally Posted by snowbird25ca

Interesting about Recaro working to make sure Canadians don't bring the seat into Canada though? They can't be held responsible for if *we* (as in the collective Canadian we,) decide to "illegally" use a seat...

I'll show my cynical side too, lol.

You know there would be people that would sue for any reason, eventhough they might totally in the wrong, especially when there is something that went wrong with the carseat or their children while using this carseat.

Lawyers are employed/retained to ensure these companies would not be exposed to undue legal risks, however small the risks might be. This is the same reason why lawyers write product warranties, contractual terms & conditions, etc. - protection for the business and not the consumers.

[neils]

For those of you who may be interested, I still did not get an official answer to my question from the Minister of Transportation, but did get an acknowledgement that my message has been forwarded to the appropriate Minister office for review. So at least someone within the Canadian Gov't will be reading this, and perhaps it might spark some discussion up there as to how they can accomodate Recaro, if at all, to bring their products to Canada.

I also understand everyone's messages above. The Canadian market is much smaller than the US, and I would imagine that Recaro would want a decent return on investment from testing and approval costs from the Canadian Gov't, not to mention product modification costs for our market. Irrelevant of these valid points, Recaro has confirmed that they have made efforts to begin testing efforts within Canada, but that's where things began to stall.

Here is the message I got back so far. Once I have an official answer, I will post it here. I sent my comments and concerns to a few Ministers, this person seems to be in Ontario. I also wrote to the top guy, I think it's Lawrence (forget the guy's name now), the guy that released the message about the changes to child seat weight increase. Let's see who gets back to me first.

-----Original Message-----
From: Minister of Transportation Correspondence (Web Account) [mailto:minister8@ontario.ca]
Sent: May 24, 2007 5:39 PM
To: Neil Sakaitis (QB/EMC)
Subject: RE: Approval process for Recaro Child Safety Seats

Thank you for your e-mail addressed to the Honourable Donna Cansfield, Minister of Transportation. Your e-mail is important to us. It has been forwarded to the appropriate Ministry office for review and we will get back to you as soon as possible.

Once again, thank you for bringing your concerns to Minister Cansfield's attention. She always appreciates hearing from members of the public.

[snowbird25ca]

Hmm, you got more of a response than I did... I never got a confirmation email like that went I contacted TC.

I'm curious what they'll respond with...

I was thinking last night about the whole million dollar thing quoted, and it doesn't make that much sense to me... they'd be competing with Britax, right? Britax originally sold their seats for $349 when they came to Canada, and then dropped it to $299. With a sticker price in the US of $219, even accounting for inflation, they could sell their seats for $299 in Canada and compete directly with Britax - and they have a number of things going for them that the Britax we have here don't - they have a narrower seat, true side impact protection and higher harness slots. Plus they still have a rf'ing tether and lock-offs.

Britax is a big company, but so is Recaro, and I don't see how their expenses would be any different than the rest of the companies who export seats to Canada. And from reading the descriptions of testing, if the seat was truly designed for the north american market including Canada, then they should've already taken into account the testing standards for Canada.

So anyways, long story short, while I was thinking about this last night, I started wondering if the reason they started testing and paperwork for Canada, and then dropped it citing costs, is because the seat didn't pass the CMVSS 213 regulations.

Sears and BRU in the US already sell Recaro seats, so I'm sure it wouldn't be a stretch to have them carry them in Canada. And with 2 major retailers, and a price point around the same as Britax, well, I just don't see what's different with them compared to Britax.

The funny thing is, if the Recaro were to show up in Canada, it could be the only seat a child needed until they were ready for a backless booster - unless the child had an exceptionally long torso. 19" slots would get most kids to what - age 7? So looking at total cost, they could actually market it as a seat that would save parents money while increasing their children's safety.

[hipmaman]

Originally Posted by snowbird25ca

I was thinking last night about the whole million dollar thing quoted, and it doesn't make that much sense to me...

...Britax is a big company, but so is Recaro, and I don't see how their expenses would be any different than the rest of the companies who export seats to Canada.

I read the million dollar quote as the market-share that Recaro has to have to make business sense for them to start investing in testing, design modification should there be any, marketing, etc. and not $1M expense to do business in Canada.

The Canadian market might be seen as not big enough to carry Recaro, Britax and others so that each would have at least $1M market share, kwim? Although I don't have any of these figures and just thinking out loud here.

I'm going to find sometime to chat up with my contact in TC to see if Recaro has started any testing in Canada yet.

[snowbird25ca]

Originally Posted by hipmaman

I read the million dollar quote as the market-share that Recaro has to have to make business sense for them to start investing in testing, design modification should there be any, marketing, etc. and not $1M expense to do business in Canada.

The Canadian market might be seen as not big enough to carry Recaro, Britax and others so that each would have at least $1M market share, kwim? Although I don't have any of these figures and just thinking out loud here.

I'm going to find sometime to chat up with my contact in TC to see if Recaro has started any testing in Canada yet.

What I was told when I talked to Recaro was that they had began submitting paperwork and testing, then stopped because of expense and no store sponsoring them.

I don't know what's on their web site now, but initially they talked about how the covertible seats were designed for the north american market - specifically the US and Canada. So given that, I just don't see how they could possibly need to make any design modifications - I'd think they'd have included that from the start. Our primary differences from what I understand is the lower head excursion allowed, requirement for the tether when ff'ing, and specific limits on the forces on the chest and pelvis - apparently when you add a tether this can increase the forces, which would be the primary area where I'd expect problems with passing standards. So I'd think those are things that could be incorporated right from the design stage, especially given the intent to market it in Canada... I dunno, I could be wrong, but I'd think stickers & instruction manual wouldn't be *that* expensive.

Marketing, yeah, I could see it - but they've obviously been getting a lot of calls from Canadians, so surely by now they've seen there's interest. And word of mouth does a lot to get products into homes - and people will often spend more money for a higher quality product with extra safety features. It's not like we have $40 cheap convertibles here, so the cheapest seat they'd be competing with would be the scenera at $90... and I'd think it'd be easier to convert sales to a better seat when there's less price difference - easier to have someone spend over $200 when they're looking at a $90 seat than when they're looking at a $40 seat. Assuming that they have the money to afford it...

I guess they may be right about not thinking there's a million dollar share with britax already here. I think competing with Britax head on though, and a good marketing campaign, could make a difference and maybe get some people away from the 3-in-1's. People spend $220 on an AO in order to get the Eddie Bauer name on it, ya know? Add side impact protection, ability to be harnessed longer, and it's a name known in racing? They would truly be able to compete and take market share away from some of the others if you ask me...

I'm just thinking out loud too...lol. And thinking that if Recaro reps check this site the way some other manufacturers do, maybe this'll give them some food for thought.

[JaRylan]

Was the SK Radian released at the same time in the US and Canada? I wonder what their market-share is? I mean that was a brand new seat that only had after-market products to back up it's name...Recaro has a whole adult car seat restraint related industry to back up their name.

[cdncasper]

I just found out today that winnipeg actually has the Recaro in one store but not approved by TC. They will probably pull it right away.

[hipmaman]

Originally Posted by cdncasper

I just found out today that winnipeg actually has the Recaro in one store but not approved by TC. They will probably pull it right away.

Grab a couple of those before they are pulled, lol.

I talked to a Recaro distributor here in Oakville last year and he had a couple (YStyle and booster) for his kids. But he was very clear that he knew he could not sell Recaro carseats in Canada. I then called around other stores in the GTA selling Recaro products and many of them never even knew of Recaro carseats, lol.

Btw, first design with intents for certain features is fine but if the product does not comply to or pass whatever tests or standards, then they must either be shelved or modify to pass the same tests. That is where the design modification might need to happen.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by JaRylan

Was the SK Radian released at the same time in the US and Canada? I wonder what their market-share is? I mean that was a brand new seat that only had after-market products to back up it's name...Recaro has a whole adult car seat restraint related industry to back up their name.

No, the Radian came out in Canada 6-12 months after being released in the US (in the fall of 2006).

[snowbird25ca]

Originally Posted by hipmaman

I talked to a Recaro distributor here in Oakville last year and he had a couple (YStyle and booster) for his kids. But he was very clear that he knew he could not sell Recaro carseats in Canada. I then called around other stores in the GTA selling Recaro products and many of them never even knew of Recaro carseats, lol.

Btw, first design with intents for certain features is fine but if the product does not comply to or pass whatever tests or standards, then they must either be shelved or modify to pass the same tests. That is where the design modification might need to happen.

Hmmm, anyway of talking to that recaro distributor and having him try to get things moving for the car seats to be imported?

And yep to the possible design modifications being needed if they weren't able to pass some of the tests. This is why I"m thinking that the seats just didn't pass Canadian standards and that's why they dropped everything. Maybe the dollar value and lack of market are what we're being told, but there's more going on behind the scenes.

[JaRylan]

Originally Posted by cdncasper

I just found out today that winnipeg actually has the Recaro in one store but not approved by TC. They will probably pull it right away.

I wonder how that happened?

[Jewels]

Originally Posted by cdncasper

I just found out today that winnipeg actually has the Recaro in one store but not approved by TC. They will probably pull it right away.

Which store?

Have you had any luck with this? I have been harrassing Recaro and my MP for a few months.

Ryan

[snowbird25ca]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Have you had any luck with this? I have been harrassing Recaro and my MP for a few months.

Ryan

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think Recaro is right - they won't get a $1M market share here. Their seats haven't really taken off in the US I don't think, and there have been some problems with them that have had to be worked out along the way. Common with a new seat, but still, I don't think they've had the response they'd hoped for - especially after all the hype.

I'm speaking honestly here - and I'll fully admit I'm somewhat amused having re-read this thread from over a year ago that I was so gung-ho about getting Recaro here, but even on the US boards the Recaro seats aren't recommended very often. People just haven't fallen in love with them for whatever reason.

And I also feel the need to point out that the first post, with the letter stating that Recaro is the safest - while well intentioned, is inaccurate to paint the picture that we're deprived of safe seats in Canada. The last year has seen a lot of change in the carseat scene here in Canada, and we have a lot of really good options for HWH seats now - including one that has a 35lb rf'ing limit.

So I guess I'm saying that while you can keep "harassing" them if you want, you may be better off finding a seat that suits your needs now and just letting things take their course. I'm of the opinion that we're not missing out on anything huge by not having Recaro here.

[TechnoGranola]

Originally Posted by snowbird25ca

And I also feel the need to point out that the first post, with the letter stating that Recaro is the safest - while well intentioned, is inaccurate to paint the picture that we're deprived of safe seats in Canada. The last year has seen a lot of change in the carseat scene here in Canada, and we have a lot of really good options for HWH seats now - including one that has a 35lb rf'ing limit.

I agree. The OP did not provide any data showing that Recaro seats were the safest (so how does the OP know that they are the safest?). All seats are tested to the same standards so there really isn't an easy way to determine which specific seats are safest. Especially because different seats can perform differently in different vehicles (and depending on the type of crash).

I was also a little uneasy with one person writing a letter but saying they are representing many Canadian parents, but yet the letter isn't signed by all the Canadian parents (I wasn't around this board when the letter was written so I'm not sure if this person was representing a specific group of parents, but it doesn't come across as that is what happened).

[snowbird25ca]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

I was also a little uneasy with one person writing a letter but saying they are representing many Canadian parents, but yet the letter isn't signed by all the Canadian parents (I wasn't around this board when the letter was written so I'm not sure if this person was representing a specific group of parents, but it doesn't come across as that is what happened).

Nope, unless it happened through PM, the letter was done on a personal initiative. I think the group comment must've been based on moaning and groaning we did when we found out the Recaro's wouldn't be coming after all.

(Ok, maybe it wasn't moaning and groaning, but there was some disappointment. )

[Allport]

My only comment is, if the Recaro is so safe then why doesn't it comply? I personally think (removing my govenment hat) that they doen't feel that they can make a big enough profit here - all companies have to think of that otherwise they would all be bankrupt. That's the main reason that the US has seats that we don't - either they can't comply or there isn't enough money in it for them. To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong) TC has never received a package from them to demonstrate compliance. If they have done so, and aren't here, then they don't meet the Canadian requirements.

[TechnoGranola]

Originally Posted by Allport

My only comment is, if the Recaro is so safe then why doesn't it comply? I personally think (removing my govenment hat) that they doen't feel that they can make a big enough profit here - all companies have to think of that otherwise they would all be bankrupt. That's the main reason that the US has seats that we don't - either they can't comply or there isn't enough money in it for them. To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong) TC has never received a package from them to demonstrate compliance. If they have done so, and aren't here, then they don't meet the Canadian requirements.

It sounded to me like the testing was too expensive for Recaro to even start the process (it sounded like the person that wrote the letter had spoken to Recaro and was told this, at least that's what the person implied).

Does it cost the manufacturer a large sum of money to start the testing process?

[bubbaray]

If we harmonized our testing with the US, the "testing cost" argument would go away.

[Allport]

It's not inexpensive that's for sure, but the smaller companies can afford to do it (Combi, Chicco, etc). Much of the testing done for the US can be accepted in Canada so they really don't have to double up. As to the harmonization.... do you want to loose things like forward facing tethering and energy absorbing foam behind the child's head, special standards for car beds and restraints for the disabled, etc? Some things we are going to harmonize on, but the Canadian standards will always be slightly different due to (what we consider) safety.