Install with LATCH and Seatbelt?

D Dae · Dec 29, 2009

A friend of mine just purchased a new MA and had a car seat installation professional come out to do the install.

The pro installed the seat in her Jeep Patriot using both LATCH AND seatbelt RF, and no tether.

I didn't think you could use both, but if you can, would that be a much safer installation method? From reading these boards (and my car seat manuals) I thought this was a big no-no, but maybe I have misunderstood? I also thought MA had to be tethered RF?

The car seat installation company she used is quite a large company, so I assume they know what they are doing, but the install just contradicts what I thought and now I am worried I am doing something wrong.
Thanks

Maedze · Dec 29, 2009

Uh, no. Whoever did that didn't know what they were doing. In fact, it's such a BASIC no-no that I would question if the person was even a technician.

I hope she calls and gets her money back, because this guy potentially put her kid's life in danger. I wouldn't trust any aspect of the install.

The MA doesn't HAVE to be tethered rear facing, but it can be, and should be when possible.

joolsplus3 · Dec 29, 2009

Right, LATCH and seatbelt should never be used. Top tether rearfacing is optional, but highly recommended.

Did she PAY for this? Not that it matters, it is totally unacceptable whether she did or didn't. She needs to contact someone higher up in the company and complain that the instructions for the car seat and probably the car manual were disregarded and she'd like the situation rectified for free. And also if they did the install FOR her, that's a huge no-no, they need to teach her to do it.

D Dae · Dec 29, 2009

It was quite a large company in Calgary, I am not sure if I am allowed to post the name of the company under the board rules. The company promotes that all their people are certified through St. John's Ambulance. Yes she did pay for this.

The problem is that I am not sure my friend will listen since I am not the expert. She is quite sure that she has the best install possible because she hired professionals to do it.

My gut told me it was wrong. So scary.

I just went on the company's website and there is some comments on there that are quite misleading, like: "As of March 2000, infant /child(convertible) restraints can be rated up to 22kg (48lbs) in the rear-facing position to accommodate a more developed child."

Maedze · Dec 29, 2009

Please share the name. There are quite a few Canadian technicians who may even be in a position to contact the right people.

autumnlily · Dec 29, 2009

That is purely awful! I hope your friend listens and complains so that other families can be notified and future families can be spared an incorrect installation!

D Dae · Dec 29, 2009

This is the company's website: http://keepinbabysafe.ca

safeinthecar · Dec 29, 2009

I looked up the Patriot manual, and Jeep does allow the seat belt to be routed through the child restraint belt path and buckled *purely for the purpose of preventing the child from playing with it and possibly wrapping it around his neck* when using LATCH.

As long as the LATCH installation is tight and the seat belt storage method is not interfering (ie:not utilizing the lockoffs) with the way the LATCH system restrains the seat and the child restraint manufacture allows this seat belt storage method then everything is fine.

I personally HATE the message, and always look for an alternate method of storing the belt, that this is OK, as it is confusing to parents to tell them to only install with one method but to put the seat belt through the belt path anyway.

simplychels · Dec 29, 2009

safeinthecar said:
I looked up the Patriot manual, and Jeep does allow the seat belt to be routed through the child restraint belt path and buckled *purely for the purpose of preventing the child from playing with it and possibly wrapping it around his neck* when using LATCH.

As long as the LATCH installation is tight and the seat belt storage method is not interfering (ie:not utilizing the lockoffs) with the way the LATCH system restrains the seat and the child restraint manufacture allows this seat belt storage method then everything is fine.

I personally HATE the message, and always look for an alternate method of storing the belt, that this is OK, as it is confusing to parents to tell them to only install with one method but to put the seat belt through the belt path anyway.

What if they buckled the seat belt up BEFORE installing the car seat (when using UAS/LATCH) instead of putting the seatbelt through the car seats belt path if their concern truly is keeping it out of the childs way.

though I'd be amazed if I saw a rf'ing child, strapped properly in, manage to get a seatbelt all the way out of its retractor and around their neck. But im sure some hoodini could manage, i guess.

eta: are there even any car seats that would allow that routing method?

D Dae · Dec 29, 2009

I was just reading the manual for my 09 Ford Flex and it says that I can use both the seat belt and LATCH (tether and lower anchors) at the same time for all forward facing installations, including for a child over 48lbs.

It sure would be nice if the message could be consistant across vehicles and seats to help ensure parents are keeping their kids safe.

I know when I first heard of this, I immediately thought using both would be safer, basically providing a back-up in case one system failed in a collision. I can see a LOT of parents thinking this way, especially when your car manual is saying it is ok. In fact if I had just talked with my friend and then read the manual for my vehicle, I would have assumed the same thing. Thank goodness for the experts on this board.

amyd · Dec 29, 2009

D Dae said:
I was just reading the manual for my 09 Ford Flex and it says that I can use both the seat belt and LATCH (tether and lower anchors) at the same time for all forward facing installations, including for a child over 48lbs.

The only issue with this is that the majority (if not all) child restraint manuals expressly forbid using both at once. So it really doesn't matter what the vehicle's manual says- you must abide by your restraint's manual.

cryswilkins · Dec 29, 2009

D Dae said:
I was just reading the manual for my 09 Ford Flex and it says that I can use both the seat belt and LATCH (tether and lower anchors) at the same time for all forward facing installations, including for a child over 48lbs.

Do you have a scanner? I would love to see that page.

snowbird25ca · Dec 29, 2009

cryswilkins said:
Do you have a scanner? I would love to see that page.

I've attached a copy I saved to my computer. It's been discussed in another thread at some point - I think it was in the tech forum.

The manual isn't telling parents to use both, it's simply listing it as an acceptable option.

D Dae · Dec 29, 2009

Thanks Trudy!

Thanks to this forum, I understand that the child seat installation instructions should be the rule, not what your car manual says, but how is the average parent to know that? Why are car seat manuals not more explicit in this direction? My MR manual even says to review my car manual for "exact locations, anchor identifications, and requirements for use with a child restraint." In the instance of the Flex this could easily lead a parent to believe it is ok to use both, since my vehicle manual allows it. For something so important, it is scary how confusing and contradictory the information between key sources can be. It is too bad there is not more regulations in place to govern this information.

Andie · Dec 29, 2009

Anyone notice this on that site?

As of March 2000, infant /child(convertible) restraints can be rated up to 22kg (48lbs) in the rear-facing position to accommodate a more developed child.

Am I reading that right?

From this page.

snowbird25ca · Dec 30, 2009

Andie said:
Anyone notice this on that site?

Am I reading that right?

From this page.

You are reading it right, however this is no longer accurate since the maximum weight allowed by CMVSS 213 is 65lbs.

CMVSS 213.1 is infant restraint systems. Infant restraints are rf'ing seats only.
CMVSS 213 is child restraint systems. It encompasses the weight of 20lbs to 65lbs (at present anyways, this is changing.) CMVSS 213 seats may be either rf'ing or ff'ing. Manufacturers are free to determine the design and weight limits of their seats provided they meet the performance requirements set out in CMVSS 213.

It is a common misconception that TC has weight and height maximums that rf'ing seats are allowed to go to, but this is only true in so much that they are limited to the weight ranges which CMVSS 213.1 and CMVSS 213 cover and the fact that they must meet the performance standards set out. If a manufacturer is able to develop a design which meets the performance standards rf'ing at 65lbs, then we could have seats rated as high as 65lbs rf'ing here. It's all up to the manufacturers.

murphydog77 · Dec 30, 2009

I've read through the responses quickly and think I have something unique to add. The others have focused on the vehicle manual, but I'd like to focus on the carseat manual for a minute. Most carseat manuals address the use of seat belts and LATCH/UAS installs either in their Warning sections or in the installation sections; Britax happens to mention it in the Warning section for the Marathon (http://www.britaxusa.com/uploads/products/user-guides/46.pdf pg. 2).

The child seat must be secured to the vehicle by means of a lower
connector system if it is installed in a seating position that is equipped
with a lower universal anchorage system or by means of a vehicle
seat belt if it is installed in a seating position that is not equipped with
a lower universal anchorage system, and by means of a tether strap,
as shown in the installation instructions. Use of the tether strap is
required forward-facing and is optional rear-facing.

(emphasis mine)

It's subtle language, for sure, but it's there. I guarantee the technician isn't going to catch that unless he's read a Marathon manual cover to cover recently or is a tremendous Britax fan, lol. It's up to the parent to read the manual and look for these things. I know it's boring reading and parents are often distracted while reading it, but it's vital to know things like this (as we carseat geeks know

)--in fact, this gives me an idea.

Anyhow, you've gotten your answer many times over, lol. No, you should never use LATCH/UAS and the seat belt at the same time. And when rear-facing, tether use is optional with a Britax convertible, but I'd use it.

selinajean · Dec 30, 2009

Wow! Even if it is acceptable to store the seatbelt like that, I am shocked that the tech did not explain to the parent that storage was the only purpose of having the seatbelt there. Not to mention that the parent should be doing that install.....if she ever needs to move that seat she will be lost!

mommycat · Dec 30, 2009

Andie said:
Anyone notice this on that site?

[thing about RF seats to 48lbs]

Am I reading that right?

From this page.

That sentence is misleading in that at first glance, it appears they are saying there are seats which allow that wt RF, but really it just says there *could* be. As pointed out, the 48 limit is out of date. The height limits stated on the same page appear to be out of date as well (if I am reading it correctly, are they really saying that those are max heights? or maybe min heights to FF due to lower limits on seats?): "All infants should ride rear-facing until they have reached at least one year of age and weigh 22 lbs and have an upper height ranging from 66 to 73.5cm (26 to 29 in)."

After the initial shock of seeing that statement and then figuring out that no, it's actually just a bit misleading when you don't know how to read it, I looked around some more and it's actually a nice site. It has all the legal limits, mentions the higher limits available for FF harnesess (although just in the combo section, not the harnessed only), and promotes ERF in the FAQ section. :thumbsup:

Hopefully the install is an isolated issue, or just a matter of this storage issue, although it is unfortunate to hear that the parent was not involved in installing the seat.

mommycat · Dec 30, 2009

The latch/seatbelt issue is dealt with appropriately in their own FAQ as well (4th question down): http://keepinbabysafe.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=29

D Dae, showing your friend this might help her listen to you when you tell her the install may be incorrect.

Install with LATCH and Seatbelt?

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