European ISOFIX versus US LATCH

southpawboston · Jan 10, 2007

okay, so i've read up as much as i can on the origins of the ISOFIX standard and how it evolved in the US to LATCH.

however, i don't understand why in the US almost all LATCH carseats still use belts instead of fixed points. CPSdarren wrote that epinions review on the baby trend infant seat with the fixed LATCH points and seemed to rate it very highly in terms of quick, snug attachment. but there are very few car seats in the US that use it, while in europe many carseats offer this attachment option.

given that LATCH belts (and seatbelts) can stretch as much as 12" in a crash, why aren't more carseats switching over to the fixed LATCH? it would seem that carseat movement would be much more limited in a crash with the fixed attachment points then with a properly installed LATCH belt. and why is that method so popular in europe but not in the US?

SteveWallen · Jan 10, 2007

southpawboston said:
... i don't understand why in the US almost all LATCH carseats still use belts instead of fixed points.

It's true that ISOFIX attachments offer more rigidity in attachment (by nature) than webbing-based LATCH attachments. However, LATCH can get very close if the geometry and components are right.

The downside of a rigid ISOFIX attachment is a big one - it doesn't work in all vehicles. The rigidity of the system dictates how the seat is positioned in the vehicle (how far forward, how high, what angle) and we know there are a variety of back seat shapes / sizes / configurations. The problem is so vexing that all Euro seats do not yet have ISOFIX, more than four years after the US adopted the LATCH standard.

By the way, this is just my personal opinion based on what I've seen in the field. It in no way represents the industry opinion. I hope this helps a little.

Sincerely,

Steve Wallen
General Manager
SafeGuard

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

Originally, the ISOFIX standard was a rigid attachment system. Some manufacturers successfully lobbied the NHTSA to allow flexible attachments before ISOFIX/LATCH was introduced in the USA. They claimed this would allow greater vehicle compatibility and also allow them to produce LATCH restraints in a quicker and less expensive fashion. Both of these were true, at least to some extent. On the other hand, we are now seeing that the result of this may be reduced safety, especially in side impacts and other types of compatibility issues.

Even so, some of these flexible systems are very good. Take the SafeGuard Child Seat (made by Mr. Wallen's company), for example. It has separate flexible LATCH attachments on each side of the seat with nice hardware to make it relatively easy to attach and detach. There's also a built-in retractor on each side to help get it secure. I suspect that models with separate attachments and tension adjustments on each side have an advantage for installation in many vehicles and could be a safety advantage as well.

Some models (generally the less expensive ones but not always) use a simple strap routed through the seatbelt path with a single tilt-lock tension adjuster. Combined with the most basic simple hook attachments, these can be much more difficult to install and remove and generally seem to result in more movement, especially side-to-side.

There are no studies to back me up on this yet, but I have a hunch we will see more rigid LATCH models appear in the USA as we get more data from crash tests and statistics from Europe, especially in regard to side impacts. Three of the four rigid LATCH models released in the USA ( Britax Expressway ISOFIX, Britax Baby Safe and Baby Trend LATCH Loc) are not currently in production. The fourth is a booster seat (Jane Indy Plus) that is not widely available. All these models had something of a price premium compared to competitive products. I think it's clear that the consumer wasn't willing to pay that premium, given the alternative of a lower cost system. I don't know if crash testing results or studies will change that.

southpawboston · Jan 10, 2007

CPSDarren said:
Some manufacturers successfully lobbied the NHTSA to allow flexible attachments before ISOFIX/LATCH was introduced in the USA. They claimed this would allow greater vehicle compatibility and also allow them to produce LATCH restraints in a quicker and less expensive fashion. Both of these were true, at least to some extent. On the other hand, we are now seeing that the result of this may be reduced safety, especially in side impacts and other types of compatibility issues.

text highlighted in boldface by me.

yet another example of our huge lobbies and their power over our gubment. what you said darren confirms my hunch over the widespread adoption of LATCH belts over the more rigid designs.

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

southpawboston said:
text highlighted in boldface by me.

yet another example of our huge lobbies and their power over our gubment. what you said darren confirms my hunch over the widespread adoption of LATCH belts over the more rigid designs.

The open comment periods for new standards are technically open to any member of the public. Unfortunately, consumers are rarely interested and the comments are all generally industry representatives and maybe a few advocacy groups.

How much "behind the scenes" lobbying there is, I don't really know. I doubt it is anywhere near the power the auto industry has.

Wineaux · Jan 10, 2007

southpawboston said:
text highlighted in boldface by me.

yet another example of our huge lobbies and their power over our gubment. what you said darren confirms my hunch over the widespread adoption of LATCH belts over the more rigid designs.

I am in 100% agreement with you Southpaw! The reason that the rigid LATCH seats wouldn't fit as well in all cars made in USA is that we have allowed the car manufacturers to fudge around on the designs in order to save THEM money. Then we allow the seat manufacturers to fudge around on LATCH to the strap system to save THEM money! All of this was to allow LATCH to be introduced quickly.

Now they have ALL had time to get their proverbial crap together, and yet we are still not seeing standardized LATCH placements in vehicles, and we're still stuck with flexible LATCH on our car seats. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Again, every time I see responses like Mr. Wallen's I begin to trust that CR article just a bit more. I see a lot about cheaper and faster, but I sure am not seeing diddly or squat about SAFER... Now why is that?

The vehicle manufacturers need to be held accountable for their half hearted attempts at LATCH. Their adherence to LATCH and the ease of installation in ALL placements and seating positions need to be part of their NHSTA review, as well as the IIHS crash test reviews. If your car isn't safe for ALL of the passengers, irregardless of their size, then your score should reflect that.

The ease of use tests by the NHSTA also need to reflect how well the seats themselves conform to the standard installation guidelines for LATCH. If you come up with a funky design that won't fit in most vehicles, and all the seat configurations, they you should expect to see a poor score. The seat manufacturers need to be working both with one another, and with the vehicle manufacturers.

If the seat companies came up with a solid standard which still allowed for innovation and design differences, and then just TOLD the vehicle manufacturers that this was the way ALL the seats sold in USA were going to be made, then the vehicle manufacturers won't have much choice but to make their cars compatible. Grow a pair and affect some change!

What the parents of this country both need, and deserve, is a car seat standard that both seat manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers MUST comply with. Every parent should be able to go to a store and buy ANY seat that suits their fancy and have it actually FIT in their car via the LATCH system. If it didn't fit, then there would be hell to pay via reviews and such for the manufacturer, car seat or vehicle, who screwed that pooch. The power of the market would quickly force them to change the error of their ways.

If none of this is possible by change within the two industries, then our government should step in and force BOTH industries to comply and monetary consequences be damned! If you can't effectively compete in today's marketplace, don't expect me to shed a tear if your business fails. That's life, and it's not always fair.

southpawboston · Jan 10, 2007

Wineaux said:
The vehicle manufacturers need to be held accountable for their half hearted attempts at LATCH. Their adherence to LATCH and the ease of installation in ALL placements and seating positions need to be part of their NHSTA review, as well as the IIHS crash test reviews. If your car isn't safe for ALL of the passengers, irregardless of their size, then your score should reflect that.

that's a good point, and while i am not 100% familiarized with the euroNCAP rating system, i am pretty sure they at least comment on, if not score on, certain aspects of child safety. for one, i know they comment on the labeling aspects of ISOFIX and detail which seats have them for every car tested. and as for safety, i actually do think they use child seat crash data in the overall ranking of the car.

at the risk of offending some here who trust NHTSA with whatever they say (crash ratings, for example), i have to say i think we are far behind the european union in terms of testing methods, standards and ratings for automotive safety, especially as it pertains to child safety. while i'm on somewhat of a rant, i've got some major problems with the methodology behind informedforlife.org as well.

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

southpawboston said:
that's a good point, and while i am not 100% familiarized with the euroNCAP rating system, i am pretty sure they at least comment on, if not score on, certain aspects of child safety. for one, i know they comment on the labeling aspects of ISOFIX and detail which seats have them for every car tested. and as for safety, i actually do think they use child seat crash data in the overall ranking of the car.

at the risk of offending some here who trust NHTSA with whatever they say (crash ratings, for example), i have to say i think we are far behind the european union in terms of testing methods, standards and ratings for automotive safety, especially as it pertains to child safety. while i'm on somewhat of a rant, i've got some major problems with the methodology behind informedforlife.org as well.

The editor from informedforlife.org has been very open with me in email correspondence. If you have questions, I suggest you email them before you begin to malign them. I don't think you will find any other integrated safety evaluation based on published studies and statistics. You may not agree with the studies and statistics used, of course, but that's true of just about anything.

It doesn't matter who is doing the tests, studies or articles. Someone will always disagree. The Federal Motor Vehicle standards in the USA are obsolete in many areas and the process is slowed by bureaucracy. Nonetheless, they've still managed to come a long way since the early 70s, when fatalties were higher even though the number of vehicle miles travelled was a lot less back then.

Wineaux · Jan 10, 2007

I agree that something is better than nothing, but it's been over 30 years since the government started regulating safety. It's high time we stop mollycoddling industry and instead focus on the safety of our most vulnerable citizens.

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

Wineaux said:
I am in 100% agreement with you Southpaw! The reason that the rigid LATCH seats wouldn't fit as well in all cars made in USA is that we have allowed the car manufacturers to fudge around on the designs in order to save THEM money. Then we allow the seat manufacturers to fudge around on LATCH to the strap system to save THEM money! All of this was to allow LATCH to be introduced quickly.

Now they have ALL had time to get their proverbial crap together, and yet we are still not seeing standardized LATCH placements in vehicles, and we're still stuck with flexible LATCH on our car seats. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Again, every time I see responses like Mr. Wallen's I begin to trust that CR article just a bit more. I see a lot about cheaper and faster, but I sure am not seeing diddly or squat about SAFER... Now why is that?

The vehicle manufacturers need to be held accountable for their half hearted attempts at LATCH. Their adherence to LATCH and the ease of installation in ALL placements and seating positions need to be part of their NHSTA review, as well as the IIHS crash test reviews. If your car isn't safe for ALL of the passengers, irregardless of their size, then your score should reflect that.

The ease of use tests by the NHSTA also need to reflect how well the seats themselves conform to the standard installation guidelines for LATCH. If you come up with a funky design that won't fit in most vehicles, and all the seat configurations, they you should expect to see a poor score. The seat manufacturers need to be working both with one another, and with the vehicle manufacturers.

If the seat companies came up with a solid standard which still allowed for innovation and design differences, and then just TOLD the vehicle manufacturers that this was the way ALL the seats sold in USA were going to be made, then the vehicle manufacturers won't have much choice but to make their cars compatible. Grow a pair and affect some change!

What the parents of this country both need, and deserve, is a car seat standard that both seat manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers MUST comply with. Every parent should be able to go to a store and buy ANY seat that suits their fancy and have it actually FIT in their car via the LATCH system. If it didn't fit, then there would be hell to pay via reviews and such for the manufacturer, car seat or vehicle, who screwed that pooch. The power of the market would quickly force them to change the error of their ways.

If none of this is possible by change within the two industries, then our government should step in and force BOTH industries to comply and monetary consequences be damned! If you can't effectively compete in today's marketplace, don't expect me to shed a tear if your business fails. That's life, and it's not always fair.

This all seems reasonable in theory. Of course, you know how government and industry really is. That's not to say it can't be done. Do a Google search on "Anton's Law" and see what someone who really wants to affect such a change can accomplish. Any parent with enough sincere interest in the kind reform you suggest can start a similar campaign.

As a side note, I do not think you will find the products made my Mr. Wallen's company to be fast, quick or cheap by any definition of those words. He simply stated some pros and cons of rigid LATCH in his opinion, all of which are accurate. It was nice of him to even post a comment based on first-hand experience of the industry. Most manufacturers' representatives don't participate in forums like this, mainly due to the [usually unfair] attacks they often receive, no matter how polite or correct their comments are.

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

NHTSA always accepts public comment and petitions for both changes to existing standards and proposals on new ones. While they may deserve a share of the blame for out-of-date standards, so do all of us who haven't actively tried to initiate the needed reforms.

southpawboston · Jan 10, 2007

CPSDarren said:
This all seems reasonable in theory. Of course, you know how government and industry really is. That's not to say it can't be done. Do a Google search on "Anton's Law" and see what someone who really wants to affect such a change can accomplish. Any parent with enough sincere interest in the kind reform you suggest can start a similar campaign.

O/T: incidentally, my name is anton

. and you are right, we do have the power to affect change, but as you probably figure, it takes some sort of major loss to overcome the apathy toward the status quo.

CPSDarren said:
I suggest you email them before you begin to malign them. I don't think you will find any other integrated safety evaluation based on published studies and statistics. You may not agree with the studies and statistics used, of course, but that's true of just about anything.

i am not maligning them at all, and if i came across that way, my apologies. not my intention. what i was trying to say is that i have some issues with data (from all sources, not just informedforlife.org) when it is presented in such as way as to be easily mis-interpretated, or without explaining plainly the caveats... i didn't in any way say their data wasn't true. data is data. i guess being a scientist, i look at ANY data and the methodology behind it with scrutiny before i take it at face value. and i would encourage everyone to do so.

Wineaux · Jan 10, 2007

Sorry if I came across as too ranty on Mr. Wallen. The fact that he is willing to come here and post is very encouraging. Major plusses there for sure. I am glad he has concerns and is willing to voice his own personal opinion. That is rare in today's corporate world. Maybe if more of the folks in management at the various seat manufacturers came here and entered into the discussions, and with us helped forumlate proposals for future policy changes we would all be much better off in the end.

southpawboston · Jan 10, 2007

hear hear!

SafeDad · Jan 10, 2007

southpawboston said:
i am not maligning them at all, and if i came across that way, my apologies. not my intention. .

You didn't at all. It was just a suggestion that the editor is usually willing to discuss his methods so I thought it was worth an email before you might begin to question it here. As is often the case, my writing isn't always very clear.

SteveWallen · Jan 11, 2007

Wineaux said:
Now they have ALL had time to get their proverbial crap together, and yet we are still not seeing standardized LATCH placements in vehicles, and we're still stuck with flexible LATCH on our car seats. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Again, every time I see responses like Mr. Wallen's I begin to trust that CR article just a bit more. I see a lot about cheaper and faster, but I sure am not seeing diddly or squat about SAFER... Now why is that?

Please, if you know anything at all about SafeGuard, you know we are definitely NOT about cheaper and faster. Everything we do as a company (IMMI) is designed to protect the people who use our products, whether it's our SafeGuard child products or our LifeGuard RollTek products for professional drivers, or other occupant restraints. The trend toward cheaper/faster has been seen in some parts of the industry, but it is exactly what we are trying to fight.

What I was saying is that flexible LATCH, if done right, is actually better than rigid ISOFIX because it fits a wider range of applications/seats/vehicles. Most vehicle seats are designed for adult passengers, because adults are ones that buy cars. In some cases, LATCH placement and child seat configuration are an afterthought to vehicle manufacturers, but some do a great job.

Regardless, a good child seat attachment needs to accomodate a wide range of child seats and a wide range of vehicle seats. There are few good ways to make a rigid system do this. And, while it works fairly well for infant seats (where excursion is really not an issue), it gets much tougher for toddler seats, where you need the seat to be not only rigid from side-to-side, but tight against EVERY TYPE of vehicle seat.

By the way, rigid ISOFIX in most cases, is very expensive and it makes it difficult to make a convertible seat. (Some convertibles in Europe, like the Aprica, sell for over $800 US).

Finally, realize that all LATCH systems are not created equally. Some are definitely easier to use than others.

I'm not anti-ISOFIX, I'm just saying that both systems have advantages and disadvantages. Believe me, there are lots of people in Europe that wish they would just agree on a standard and go.

Steve

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