Question Rearfacing Tether Question.

ImHighOnSafety · Apr 14, 2014

Hi

Long time lurker, first time poster

Before I get to my question, here is my scenario first... I have a 2000 Chevy Venture with 2 rear-facing Radian RXT's and an obviously forward-facing Britax Frontier 90. I have one Radian and the Frontier in the 2nd row bench seat and the second Radian in the 3rd row, center seat. I have the Radian in the 2nd row tethered to the leg of the passenger seat and currently have the Radian in the 3rd row tethered to the anchor on the back of the seat that the 2nd row Radian is in. I know you can't tether a rear facing child restraint to the seat it's actually in so I'm feeling like maybe this isn't the best idea. So basically my question is, can I tether a 3rd row rear-facing seat to the anchor on a 2nd row seat that also has a car seat in it?

Hopefully that all made sense! Thanks in advance

seb3244 · Apr 15, 2014

Great question! I have no idea but would also love to know

ketchupqueen · Apr 15, 2014

Diono actually allows tethering to the seat it's on (others don't.) However, tethering to a forward-facing tether anchor in the row ahead is NOT allowed. Hope that helps.

ImHighOnSafety · Apr 15, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
Diono actually allows tethering to the seat it's on (others don't.) However, tethering to a forward-facing tether anchor in the row ahead is NOT allowed. Hope that helps.

Thanks! I've never had to look into this one before because tethering a rearfacing seat in the third row had never come up, I've always had to use a d-ring, so you're saying that a rear facing seat should never be tethered to an actual anchor? Or is this just Diono's rule?

J-max · Apr 15, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
..... However, tethering to a forward-facing tether anchor in the row ahead is NOT allowed. Hope that helps.

Can you send me info on this? (not doubting you, just never heard it) I have done this many times and always thought (and taught) it was allowed. It is solely a Diono thing?

ImHighOnSafety · Apr 16, 2014

J-max said:
Can you send me info on this? (not doubting you, just never heard it) I have done this many times and always thought (and taught) it was allowed. It is solely a Diono thing?

I really want to know too! I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what she's saying.

ketchupqueen · Apr 16, 2014

Diono has specifically said not to do it. They have tested with the dring, a ff ta has not been tested for rf use.

That said I've never been comfortable with it for the same reason. The angle of force and direction of attachment are both different than it was engineered for.

tiggercat · Apr 16, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
Diono has specifically said not to do it. They have tested with the dring, a ff ta has not been tested for rf use.

That said I've never been comfortable with it for the same reason. The angle of force and direction of attachment are both different than it was engineered for.

Bet they also haven't tested all possible d-ring attachment points in all vehicles... and I am pretty sure seat tracks were not engineered with rf tether forces in mind

ketchupqueen · Apr 16, 2014

No, they haven't, which is why I personally don't rf tether to a seat anyone else is riding in.

But the fact remains, Diono says don't do it.

ImHighOnSafety · Apr 16, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
Diono has specifically said not to do it. They have tested with the dring, a ff ta has not been tested for rf use.

That said I've never been comfortable with it for the same reason. The angle of force and direction of attachment are both different than it was engineered for.

Can you send me a link to where Diono has said this? I'm re-reading my manual and I'm not finding this at all. All I've found is this but it sounds like they are saying that a FF anchor is okay.

"With some vehicle models, the top tether may not fit
structural parts of vehicle seat or there may not be a
suitable anchorage point for top tether hook. It may be
necessary to use the tether connecting strap to create a
tether anchorage point."

Things certainly change but I'm just curious!

ketchupqueen · Apr 17, 2014

I'd have to try to find it. They have a bad habit of posting things on Facebook and nowhere else.

However, you can see that they specify to use the connector strap but don't specify in a forward location. The ”suitable anchorage point” would include a dedicated rf tether anchor or a different structurally attached hook. The top tether anchor is usually not considered structurally attached to the frame of the vehicle directly.

tiggercat · Apr 17, 2014

I think it is in the 2013 latch manual, rf tethering section.

ketchupqueen · Apr 17, 2014

You're right! I'd only seen it on FB, and was having trouble finding the post, but there is a passage in the LATCH Manual as follows:

Britax prohibits attaching a tether using the Swedish method to a point under the seat on which the CR is installed. However, Diono says that this is okay, but only when there is no other viable option and if the strap is not overtightened.

(2013 LATCH Manual, p 73)

In some vehicle/CR combinations, it may be appropriate to use the standard TA specified for the seat directly in front of the CR as a Swedish method rear-tether anchor... Note: Diono has told SRN Publications that these TAs may not be used for rear tethering its Radian models, which is a change from what it stated on this subject for the 2011 LATCH Manual.

(2013 LATCH Manual, p 71, original emphasis.)

ketchupqueen · Apr 17, 2014

(Obviously I need to do more than skim the RF tether section when the next LATCH Manual comes out!)

tiggercat · Apr 17, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
(Obviously I need to do more than skim the RF tether section when the next LATCH Manual comes out!)

I remember because it totally messed up my tethering set up in my van.

Some vehicle manufacturers also prohibit that type of tethering, though it was only in an email to a canadian tech, so

ketchupqueen · Apr 17, 2014

I've heard it in person from a few of them. I'm not comfortable with it at all.

ImHighOnSafety · Apr 17, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
You're right! I'd only seen it on FB, and was having trouble finding the post, but there is a passage in the LATCH Manual as follows:

(2013 LATCH Manual, p 73)

(2013 LATCH Manual, p 71, original emphasis.)

Interesting, thanks! The thing I don't understand is that rebound forces on a rear-facing tether are less than initial crash forces on a top tether. If a tether anchor isn't strong enough for an RF tether than how is it strong enough for an FF tether? I'm certainly not the kind of person to disregard manufacturer recommendations in favor of my own logic lol it just does seems odd! So in cars with anchors behind the driver's and passenger's seats like the Ford Windstar... are these anchors unusable then?

littleangelfire · Apr 17, 2014

The whole rear face tethering thing needs attention. We've got a few seat manufacturers recommending it, but vehicle manufacturers not even knowing what it is. I feel like I'm doing something slightly shady RF tethering my Coccoro but then again doing something shady if I don't since the manual specifically mentions somethign to the effect of highly encouraging it.

ketchupqueen · Apr 17, 2014

ImHighOnSafety said:
Interesting, thanks! The thing I don't understand is that rebound forces on a rear-facing tether are less than initial crash forces on a top tether. If a tether anchor isn't strong enough for an RF tether than how is it strong enough for an FF tether? I'm certainly not the kind of person to disregard manufacturer recommendations in favor of my own logic lol it just does seems odd! So in cars with anchors behind the driver's and passenger's seats like the Ford Windstar... are these anchors unusable then?

A different directional force is exerted, at a different angle. We don't know it would fail but we don't know it wouldn't. And in a rear-impact or side-impact the forces would be much higher, at an angle that would possibly exert greater force than a ff seat using that anchor could.

So no, you'd never use the driver side anchor with your seat, unless your vehicle manual specifies that it is for rf tethering. (more usually, they used the same seat for driver and passenger and didn't remove the anchor.)

The passenger anchor could be used if you ever needed to carry more children than rear seating positions to tether the seat of the oldest ffing harnessed child.

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